Interesting you bring up Humphrey.

Post #406,836 by mmoffitt 12/9/15 9:09:21 AM Reply	Interesting you bring up Humphrey. I just glanced up at a picture of me (age 9) standing next to Hubert with his arm around me and my younger brother standing next to me. That was in Leningrad. Would there be a difference between a Clinton presidency and a Trump presidency? Certainly. But not as great as you imagine. Her anointment would be the triumph of the Right for the simple reason that a former Goldwater Girl who worked for Nixon, sat on the Board of Directors of Walmart, had no less than Rupert Muhrdoch host a campaign fundraiser for her, attended a party to celebrate the 10th anniversary of Fox News, whose largest campaign donors are Wall Street banksters and who voted for the Iraq War would "pass" as a liberal. If such a creature represents the American political Center (nevermind the Left) then I think it's obvious to even the most pollyannish of myopic minds that the Right has the brass ring firmly in its grasp.
Post #406,845 by rcareaga 12/9/15 1:00:49 PM Reply	So the Overton Window has moved way to the right. Got it. The Left has lost the war. But if you have to choose between postwar environments (here employing a municipal metaphor for the purpose of contrasting extremes, and not for ideological correspondence), there's a lot to be said for the quality of life in 1918 Berlin over the quality of life in 1945 Berlin. On NPR this morning there was a climate change denialist holding forth with such breathtakingly naked cynicism and mendacity that only the fact that I was riding in a carpool kept me from screeching back at the radio (oh, cripes, it'll be Peggy Noonan on during the next hour, they just announced). Turns out it was Ted Cruz. I don't give a shit if you and boxley are indifferent to next year's results. I don't want any of these jokers in the GOP pack anywhere near the button. cordially,
Post #406,846 by mmoffitt 12/9/15 1:40:02 PM Reply	I'm far from indifferent. I am now and have always been a supporter of Bernie Sanders in 2016. I assert that it is you, not me, who is indifferent to the election next year - and every year thereafter. It is you, not me, who finds himself capable - even willing - to support the oligarchs' mistress and keep things on the unsustainable path they've been on since Ronnie Rayguns fired PATCO. It is you, not me, who accepts as inevitable the incremental march to the very destination that the scary RW nutcases would take us immediately. My position is simply that if We, the People have decided that we don't want a government of, by and for the People anymore (read: Bernie fails to win the Democratic nomination) then by all means, let's embrace the position of the RW nutcases and their sympathetic apologists whose political leanings differ from theirs only in degrees and whose voting decisions do naught to alter our course. If we're bound to keep marching Right, then let's do it properly.
Post #406,851 by Another Scott 12/9/15 5:24:01 PM Reply	Someone asked earlier what you would do if Bernie endorses HRC. Would you still vote for Cruz or Trump then? Or would you still refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee? I don't recall your answer. In the primaries, one should vote the candidate. In the general, one should vote the party. To do otherwise is counter-productive in almost every case. Cheers, Scott.
Post #406,852 by a6l6e6x 12/9/15 6:02:59 PM Reply	Mike gets a free symbolic vote. Indiana will vote Republican even if Satan is the candidate. The same for me in SC where there is a 2 to 1 Repo advantage. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #406,870 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 8:34:10 AM Reply	I believe I said I didn't know for certain. And Alex is right - mostly. Although if the youth can still manage to trust our political system enough to participate after the betrayal of Obama, then Indiana could go for the Democratic candidate again as it did in 2008. But that would be if and only if Bernie is the candidate. However, the "hope for change" candidate that conned the youth vote in 2008 and left them so disillusioned with the process that Indiana went back to it's normal Red status in 2012 may have done so much damage to the prospects for a real progressive that Indiana will forever be as Alex described it, Red until the end. This effect, you will recall, I accurately predicted when I warned of nominating Obama - that if elected and allowed to pass for a progressive, no progressive would ever have a chance again. I hope Bernie proves me wrong, but the road Obama paved for a real progressive is an extremely difficult one to navigate. Clinton has about as much chance of carrying Indiana as she does of getting my vote in the primary. But to your question. I'd be disappointed if Bernie endorsed Clinton, although he'll probably do it if she beats him in the primary. (Aside: I understand there's already been some back-room dealing with Super Delegates by the Clinton campaign and that "helps her cause" as well). The election is a long way off, but were it today and it was Clinton vs $RW_AH, I'd sit it out.
Post #406,871 by malraux 12/10/15 10:21:32 AM Reply	As the parent of a 21yo Obama is not seen as a traitor, and Bernie is alive and well. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,873 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 10:25:37 AM Reply	Heh. My 23 yo and 25 yo disagree. Of course, of course, you'll say that's my influence. But I can assure you, with both of them having been away from me at college the last 5 years, my influence with them is marginal at best. ;0)
Post #406,874 by malraux 12/10/15 10:27:19 AM Reply	I work with an office full of 20-and-30-somethings All of whom share my son's opinion. I suspect your influence on your progeny is greater than you will admit. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,875 by a6l6e6x 12/10/15 10:32:42 AM Reply	Not to mention the China connection. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #406,877 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 10:35:30 AM Reply	No denying that.
Post #406,876 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 10:32:46 AM Reply	Perhaps with the youngest. But, the oldest is in Hillary's camp! And believe me, I had nothing to do with that. She feels Bernie is too left for her tastes, but concedes that Obama failed to deliver on his progressive promises - probably much to her delight I'm afraid to say. I work with several 20-30 yos but nearly all of them are fans of Fox News who think Hillary is a flaming liberal and Bernie is a Communist.
Post #406,882 by pwhysall 12/10/15 3:08:08 PM Reply	Ah, you work with the thickos, then. I bet a non-trivial subset of them are cheering the national embarrassment that happened yesterday in front of the Senate Science Committee.
Post #406,883 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 3:50:30 PM Reply	I don't think they're curious enough to even know about that. If Fox doesn't report on it and Rush Limbaugh doesn't say anything about it, then they've never heard of it. If either does say anything about it, it will be swallowed entirely without question.
Post #406,885 by Another Scott 12/10/15 4:22:19 PM Reply	Dunno if it's lack of curiosity, but siloing of news is a big problem. :-(
Post #406,886 by malraux 12/10/15 6:47:04 PM Reply	Millennials feel the Bern. http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/12/10/millennial-voters-favor-insurgent-candidates-in-2016-harvard-poll-finds/ Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,855 by rcareaga 12/9/15 9:16:22 PM 12/10/15 12:01:24 AM Reply	the doctor is inutile If I may have recourse to yet another analogy, and keeping in mind that metaphors are by their nature inexact, you and I are like two clinicians who, having arrived at approximately the same diagnosis (that the Republic is afflicted with a wasting disease—let's call it late stage metastatic capitalism), have very different ideas about how treatment should proceed. You believe that changes in diet and lifestyle, coupled with a regimen of Sanderselectin®, which has shown early promise in clinical trials in New England, will arrest or even reverse the progress of the disease. For my own part, while I'm willing to consider Sanderselectin®, and would be tickled if it worked, the drug may not be available, or the patient might prove unresponsive, and in that case I am inclined to recommend recourse to conventional chemotherapy, which you regard as poison. Thus far, these are questions on which reasonable men may reasonably disagree. When, however, you insist that rather than chemotherapy and/or palliative care, you want to go straight for assisted suicide, we must irrevocably part company. cordially, Edit: Better pharma Edited by rcareaga Dec. 10, 2015, 12:01:24 AM EST Expand All History
Post #406,858 by Another Scott 12/9/15 11:04:15 PM Reply	+1
Post #406,868 by mmoffitt 12/10/15 8:19:28 AM Reply	That is a fair, accurate, objective assessment of our situation. Thank you.
Post #406,872 by malraux 12/10/15 10:24:52 AM Reply	+1 metoo Nicely put. Bag of nitrogen over the head seem premature, to say the least, when we haven't exhausted all other means, particularly when no one can be sure of the afterlife situation. Meeting you all in the bardo might be fun and interesting, but there's a significant chance that we'd be hobnobbing with Faust instead. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,974 by TB D 12/14/15 5:17:16 PM Reply	Watched a doc on netflix on WF Buckley/Gore Vidal debates on abc in 1968 last night More evidence that nothing really changes. Both men were utterly convinced that adoption of the other's ideas would be the end of the republic. The most striking thing, however, was the level of discourse - stratospheric in sophistication compared to our low brow sound bites and FUD. Buckley was fun - despite being a worrisome stick in the mud in viewpoint. Vidal somewhat less cutting but I tended to much prefer his points. And in the end...left was left and right was right and nothing much was settled although a good time was had by all.
Post #406,980 by rcareaga 12/14/15 10:01:27 PM Reply	Indeed Who among us—those of us old enough to remember—could forget that elevated debate, the civilized thrust and parry, the witty banter? “Now listen, you queer, stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I’ll sock you in the goddam face and you’ll stay plastered.” I tell you, it was like Athens under Pericles. nostalgically,
Post #407,005 by Ashton 12/16/15 2:21:29 AM Reply	Quite so, more like "God and (a) Man with Ale" than that other title Were they not both a tad squiffy?
Post #407,008 by mmoffitt 12/16/15 1:28:50 PM Reply	It was the beginning of the end. ABC’s grand experiment with Buckley and Vidal didn’t so much result in worse discussion as it resulted in more discussion, because it revealed discussion to be something greater than its content. First, their debates revealed televised discussion to be, first and foremost, a form of television, and thereby induced executives to expand the formal boundaries of news broadcasting. Second, their debates revealed televised discussion to be a media event in a very peculiar and particular sense: an event that existed more for the benefit of other media people, for journalists and commentators, than for the general public. The clashes come off as an event that entered the echo chamber of the punditocracy, that piqued the interest and won the acclaim of journalists and commentators, who themselves defined its import and impact by the very fact of their noticing. It was mass media for an insider audience, intended to create not first-order popularity but buzz. That’s its distinctive post-modernity, and its enduring claim on attention. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/richard-brody/buckley-vidal-and-the-birth-of-buzz

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