Get both.

Post #405,921 by pwhysall 11/4/15 1:42:57 AM Reply	Get both. They are as essential to the modern developer as a compiler or email program.
Post #405,931 by lincoln 11/4/15 10:36:16 AM Reply	Really? How? How is having a camera "essential" to me as a developer? Will it help me write better OOP code? Will it help me debug code supporting internal web pages? No - it won't do any of that. It's only useful if you work remotely and your boss wants a teleconference. Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #405,933 by pwhysall 11/4/15 11:30:55 AM Reply	You're thinking as a "programmer", not a "developer" Gone are the days when a coder was a black box into which you chucked problems and out of which appeared solutions. For any job worth two shits, you will work as part of a team; you will have regular (even daily) meetings no matter where you are geographically located; you will be expected to communicate using AV technology, not email. Programmers write code. No-one's a programmer any more. Developers write code, do testing, lead people, write documentation, manage sprints, own their tickets, etc. You can howl into the void if you like, or you can maximise your chance of someone wanting to hire you. If you play the "but I don't need that, I'm a programmer" card, and you're not the shit-hottest thing EVAR (and you're not, because we're having this conversation), then you're going to be less attractive to an employer than the dude/dudette who's got the same resume as you, but also has a webcam. Spend the $20. For shits and giggles, here's what a lot of organisations think of as a regular developer (this is the SFIA level 4 profile; notice how the "business skills" section is larger than the others): Level 4 : enable Autonomy Works under general direction within a clear framework of accountability. Exercises substantial personal responsibility and autonomy. Plans own work to meet given objectives and processes. Influence Influences team and specialist peers internally. Influences customers at account level and suppliers. Has some responsibility for the work of others and for the allocation of resources. Participates in external activities related to own specialism. Makes decisions which influence the success of projects and team objectives. Complexity Performs a broad range of complex technical or professional work activities, in a variety of contexts. Investigates, defines and resolves complex problems. Business Skills Selects appropriately from applicable standards, methods, tools and applications. Demonstrates an analytical and systematic approach to problem solving. Communicates fluently orally and in writing, and can present complex technical information to both technical and non-technical audiences. Facilitates collaboration between stakeholders who share common objectives. Plans, schedules and monitors work to meet time and quality targets and in accordance with relevant legislation and procedures. Rapidly absorbs new technical information and applies it effectively. Has a good appreciation of the wider field of information systems, their use in relevant employment areas and how they relate to the business activities of the employer or client. Maintains an awareness of developing technologies and their application and takes some responsibility for personal development.
Post #405,936 by boxley 11/4/15 12:14:46 PM Reply	If you are doing Agile (or abortions thereoff) you will be doing these at a minimum daily you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #405,954 by mmoffitt 11/4/15 3:11:59 PM Reply	And releasing tons of buggy code, iteratively.
Post #405,959 by lincoln 11/4/15 4:59:47 PM Reply	I was doing all that years before the word Agile was inserted into the IT world. We just didn't have a special name for it back then. And I did it all without having a camera attached to my home computer. In fact, in my career I've never even worked with a programmer, let alone a "developer", who was required to have a camera mounted on their PC to do his/her job. The only manager who will pick someone else when comparing my resume to his when our resumes are the same, except the other guy has a camera, is a manager from India who wants a fellow Indian working for him. Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #405,976 by pwhysall 11/4/15 9:17:09 PM Reply	Re: I was doing all that years before the word Agile was inserted into the IT world. We just didn't have a special name for it back then. No-one cares. And I did it all without having a camera attached to my home computer. No-one cares. In fact, in my career I've never even worked with a programmer, let alone a "developer", who was required to have a camera mounted on their PC to do his/her job. No-one cares. The only manager who will pick someone else when comparing my resume to his when our resumes are the same, except the other guy has a camera, is a manager from India who wants a fellow Indian working for him. No-one cares, you racist. Lync, WebEx, Google Hangouts - tools like these are part of the fabric of modern software development in places you'd actually want to work. The deck is stacked against you - you're old (i.e. 45+), your skills are unhip, you've got gaps in your work history (none of that is a slur; I'm pointing out facts) - and you're competing against people who are none of those things. Why make it even harder for yourself by being a luddite? What makes you even think you're right? And I'll go fuck myself now, to save you the bother of telling me.
Post #405,982 by lincoln 11/5/15 9:37:28 AM Reply	Re: I was doing all that years before Lync, WebEx, Google Hangouts - tools like these are part of the fabric of modern software development in places you'd actually want to work. All of those get installed on the COMPANY'S laptop, that they give to you, when you travel around the country working for them on their dime. They support it; when it gets fucked up THEY FIX IT. They can choose to install it onto THEIR desktop that you use daily in your cubicle inside THEIR building. Again, THEIR equipment, NOT mine. NONE OF THEM are necessary to be placed onto MY HOME COMPUTER just for an interview. If some company hires me and then demands to put their software onto my computer, all while washing their hands of responsibility, they'll have a fight on their hands. And all three things you mention are BUSINESS tools that have nothing to do with creating software or being a developer. I hope someday top have my own business so I can hire you and make you jump through any hoop I want because you're such a compliant sheep. "Install this onto your home computer because I say so". "Yessuh mass suh." Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #405,983 by malraux 11/5/15 9:52:08 AM Reply	Re: I was doing all that years before And all three things you mention are BUSINESS tools that have nothing to do with creating software or being a developer. I work on site, and have for the past couple of decades. I've had all of Lync, WebEx, Skype, and Hangouts installed on both my work and personal machines at some point or another in support of creating software and developing. Get with the times, and work on your attitude. All of that comes through in both subtle and not so subtle cues when you are being interviewed. And like Peter said, quit being such a damned racist. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #405,999 by lincoln 11/5/15 4:19:09 PM Reply	Re: I was doing all that years before installed on both my work and personal machines at some point or another in support of creating software and developing. How did you use these on your home computer? How did you be a better developer using communication software - we're not talking about code development tools like Visual Studio or Eclipse. Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #406,005 by pwhysall 11/5/15 7:05:39 PM Reply	Development is more than just the code It's about participation in regular and frequent meetings - both with the whole team and subsections thereof. A meeting can be anything from the daily stand-up to three people getting together to talk through a problem. These meetings are often held electronically even if the people are in the same office, because using (say) Lync makes it trivially easy to share your screen and pass control to someone, which is much better than having them dictate or explain something - they can just go right ahead and do it. Developers regularly present - from technical "My fix to $bigproblem. Here's the code, let's walk through it" presentations, to actual PowerPoint slides presenting business cases for new gear, tools, whatever. Again, the tools facilitate this.
Post #406,040 by lincoln 11/6/15 10:36:31 AM Reply	How often do you attend these meetings from home, after hours, using your own personal computer? Isn't your employer part of the 21st Century, where they give you a laptop with all of their software pre-installed, that they expect you to take home and use on their premises, to do your job? And if there's a problem with it, aren't they responsible for fixing their property? If not, why are you working for a Ludditte company? Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #406,042 by pwhysall 11/6/15 10:46:33 AM Reply	Stop right there. Staaaaaaahp. I'm not asking your opinion, here. I'm telling you how it is, in a company that employs a lot of developers. I'm telling you what you'd need to be able to do and talk about just to be able to get an interview. I work in biz dev, but I'm often involved in interviews because I'm a people person, and exactly because I'm not inclined to get into the minutiae of technical matters. I've been here a long time and I know who's going to fit and who isn't. So you can dismiss my experience and opinion, because I'm not a developer, irrespective of my input into the hiring process. On the other hand, Scott A is 100% exactly what you're trying to be and do; further, he's the guy who'd be interviewing you and making the final hire/no hire decision. And he's saying the exact same things that I am. You're pissing into the wind. Unsurprisingly, this is resulting in you being covered in piss.
Post #406,011 by malraux 11/5/15 10:39:10 PM Reply	Because being a developer requires communication. All of these tools were used to keep me in contact with business people (the source of requirements, without which you have nothing to develop), my employees, my managers, and other developers. As someone else pointed out, there's much more to development beyond slinging code. At one of my previous jobs the Head of Technology (my manager) had to occasionally travel for more than a few days at a time. He held his meetings over Skype, and we were glad to have the face-to-face time with him instead of a phone call or email. At another job we used Lync to communicate with a designer located in another state. At yet another job I had a number of meetings with vendors and engineers via Webex. At my current job we occasionally have stand-ups using Hangouts or HipChat when one of my team can't make it into the office. And I don't know how to answer "how did you use these on your home computer"... I installed them, I clicked the icon, I signed in, I used them. I suspect that's not the thrust of your question, however. I'm a Head of Technology, Lincoln. I've been a Chief Software Architect twice, a development manager, and a lead software engineer. Currently I still architect and code in addition to my managerial and operational duties. Anyone I was considering hiring who complained about having to install communication software would quickly be branded as someone who was difficult to work with and a probable disruptive employee. You might take the advice of someone who has been in both your position as well as the position of the people you would like to hire you. Just a thought. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #405,984 by pwhysall 11/5/15 10:01:11 AM Reply	Oh, I'm pretty sure That any business you start won't be hiring me. You can't afford me, dahling. But you'll never start your own business. If you were going to, you would have, by now.
Post #405,998 by lincoln 11/5/15 4:16:51 PM Reply	I would never hire you because you're not worth what you think you are. And you're an arrogant prick too. Satan (impatiently) to Newcomer: The trouble with you Chicago people is, that you think you are the best people down here; whereas you are merely the most numerous. - - - Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar" 1897
Post #406,004 by pwhysall 11/5/15 6:57:39 PM Reply	Re: I would never hire you I hope someday top have my own business so I can hire you Uh huh. And really, is this the way you engage with people who are giving you actual practical free advice about how to fix the shitty situation you're in? Like Scott said: your attitude stinks. And that will shine out of you at interview. You might think that that's a load of touchy-feely bollocks, and that's your right, but hiring managers are people like me and we're well into the touchy-feely bollocks, because it doesn't matter how good you are: hiring an asshole onto the team just isn't worth it.
Post #406,014 by malraux 11/5/15 10:43:44 PM 11/5/15 11:37:17 PM Reply	Amen to that. I've worked with assholes who were extremely prolific developers. They create a poisonous atmosphere and the added productivity is not worth the trouble at all because everyone else's suffers. At my current place the biggest part of the interview is team fit. It's extremely important. Someone who's going to whine about everything isn't going to pass that filter. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson. Edited by malraux Nov. 5, 2015, 11:37:17 PM EST Expand All History
Post #406,016 by boxley 11/5/15 10:50:16 PM Reply	same in my current shop, I can train anyone to do this What I don't need is someone who thinks, that is not my job description Why do I have to do this instead of (x,y,z) it doesn't work the way I expect it to so down tools If my supervisor didn't tell me to do it I don't have to you only do your assigned work with no thinking about how to make it all better All of the above are valid issues but you won't be working long on my crew. you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,035 by malraux 11/6/15 9:17:13 AM Reply	Yep. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #405,988 by boxley 11/5/15 11:51:40 AM Reply	several places I have worked at required me to supply my laptop they also paid very well, and if I needed to download something to get the job done I just did it. you can kill people for America at age 18 but need to be 21 to buy a beer
Post #406,073 by crazy 11/6/15 8:52:36 PM Reply	I am amazed it took this long into the thread The word racist. Thankyou Peter Dothead Nigger Chink Kike Jap Fisheater The words go on and on. If any of the latter were substituted for the 1st one, would you do a doubletake? What makes you think the first one is acceptable?
Post #406,078 by Another Scott 11/6/15 9:59:00 PM Reply	It went over my head. I thought it was some IT jargon related to the old Sun ads - "we're the dot in dot com" :-/ Cheers, Scott.
Post #406,080 by malraux 11/6/15 10:58:51 PM Reply	Nope, it's pretty offensive. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,102 by mmoffitt 11/7/15 3:37:13 PM Reply	Christ! Me, too. Completely missed it. Thought it was a reference to "dot Net"
Post #406,081 by malraux 11/6/15 11:00:48 PM Reply	"This long into the thread" Mind your timestamps... ;-) Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #406,083 by pwhysall 11/7/15 3:01:17 AM Reply	The "dothead" escaped me It's not a common (or even uncommon) slur here in the UK. The most common slur for people of south Asian origin (be they Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Pakistani or whatever) is "paki". Sure, it's just a contraction of "Pakistani". But make no mistake: it's as offensive as "nigger". So Linc is a double-racist. Awesome.
Post #406,088 by crazy 11/7/15 9:08:25 AM Reply	Makes sense There was a time in colonial baboon land if we said "Indian" the default would be to envision a native American. As people from the other side of the world became more prevalent over here, if someone said "indian" and we needed to differentiate, we would say "dot indian". That then morphed into "dothead".
Post #406,089 by drook 11/7/15 9:32:57 AM Reply	Either that or ... Casino indian or Slurpee indian Is that a stereotype in other countries, that all the 7-11s are run by South Asians? -- Drew
Post #406,091 by pwhysall 11/7/15 10:52:40 AM Reply	There was a band that took their name from it Cornershop. My local corner shop has a big sign outside it proclaiming "Sri Lankan Owners". Not joking. Will get a pic next time I'm walking past.
Post #406,098 by drook 11/7/15 1:41:36 PM Reply	What's their point? Does Sri Lanka have some great reputation, or is the point, "We're not those other dark people"? -- Drew
Post #406,099 by pwhysall 11/7/15 2:21:27 PM Reply	Dunno, tbh.
Post #406,105 by a6l6e6x 11/7/15 4:18:49 PM Reply	Re: Does Sri Lanka have some great reputation? Not as much as the Ceylonese! :) Perhaps it's just that they want you to know they're not those evil Muslim Pakistanis. Sri Lankans are mostly Buddhists and less than 10% are Muslims. Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov
Post #406,103 by mmoffitt 11/7/15 3:38:16 PM Reply	I've heard this one, too. "Tech Support" or "Tomahawk"?
Post #417,974 by CRConrad 5/1/17 6:14:53 PM 5/1/17 6:14:53 PM Reply	It is nowadays, and his name is Apu. You can see he's a foreigner because he's almost the only person whose skin isn't bright yellow. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #417,976 by Another Scott 5/2/17 12:53:41 AM 5/2/17 12:53:41 AM Reply	What a strange thread to reappear in... Howdy, stranger! Cheers, Scott.
Post #417,977 by CRConrad 5/2/17 1:39:39 AM 5/2/17 1:39:39 AM Reply	It has its own logic. It was the forum with the smallest number of unread posts. In the mean time, I've also finished the "Rand's Bitching about BDS" (formerly known as "Stupid PHB Tricks") forum. -- Christian R. Conrad Same old username (as above), but now on iki.fi (Yeah, yeah, it redirects to the same old GMail... But just in case I ever want to change.)
Post #417,998 by Ashton 5/2/17 11:37:40 PM 5/2/17 11:37:40 PM Reply	A quite Jungian synchronicity, too Was recently gifted with The Apu Trilogy; then too, what if you're returning as The Harbinger of Doom? given our "maybe one year" to rid the dis-USA of its current malignant brain-cancer. (cf. current Politics entry.) [How's Finland for USian emigrés.. do we have to bring along a few hundred $grand?]
Post #417,992 by a6l6e6x 5/2/17 1:13:23 PM 5/2/17 1:13:23 PM Reply	Re: Howdy, stranger! Hey, that would have been my line! :) Good to see CRC pop up! Alex "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." -- Isaac Asimov

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