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New cripes, box
...you'll be scoffing in thirty years, and dismissing the analyses of your educational and intellectual betters, in the face of whatever evidence might be thrown up. In the example you cite, it was not "scientists calling for their coats," it was a few scientists. You will look in vain for anything resembling a consensus on this issue in that era, much less anything like the accord obtaining today among responsible researchers bringing to bear much more data and vastly more sophisticated analytical tools than anything your 1970s outliers had available to them. On this issue, box, you are fundamentally and apparently forever intellectually dishonest in the service of a delusional self-image of yourself as a fearless iconoclast unimpressed by the conclusions of researchers whose grasp of the issues renders you a very kindergartner by comparison. Contempt is indicated.
New if I am scoffing in 30 years
It will be due to the wondrous science funded by the government and private sector that will be stuffing me full of wonder drugs on the taxpayers dime.
bringing to bear much more data and vastly more sophisticated analytical tools than anything your 1970s outliers had available to them.
and they still produce results much different than what actually happens in the world. No snow? It is snowing in Egypt for first time in 100 years. There is no doubt than man is changing climate, its the predictions of what is going to happen the models that have been proven to be totally bullshit and by guesswork by gol. The hockey stick looks like a limp appendage not even useful for a bunbuster flic. Trade you one indicated contempt for a conclusion by the blessed that never matches what happens inreal time. Your beloved folks pontificate and the reality laughs in their face

OPn an unrelated note I suspect that Kat Williams is not going to be invited to the whitehouse anytime soon
regards
dabox
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New It's a tough problem.
I guess you think meteorology is bunk too because they don't get the weather forecast perfect everywhere every day?

:-/

Winters in the ME have been changing for a while.

http://www.english.g...er-the-storm.html

The flooded streets and scores of displaced people it left behind showed that the region is still insufficiently prepared to manage natural disasters. Also in January [2013], record breaking snow fall in Amman, Jordan, overwhelmed the city’s drainage system, with the resulting floods trapping residents in their homes. In the Zaatari refugee camp, north of the Jordanian capital, hundreds of tents were destroyed, leaving thousands of Syrian refugees with no shelter. In the past years, storms have disrupted traffic in the Suez Canal and forced Egyptian authorities to close down the port of Alexandria, multiple fatalities have been reported in Lebanon due to severe weather, and sandstorms are increasingly affecting Gulf countries, shutting down airports, schools and cities.

The Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region is no stranger to severe weather – floods, earthquakes and multi-annual droughts have been on the rise. While the number of natural disasters around the world has almost doubled since the 1980s, in MENA it has almost tripled. Rapid urbanization, water scarcity, and climate change have all aggravated the impact of natural disasters and created new development challenges for the region.


Predicting such things is very complex.

If you read the IPCC summaries - e.g. http://ipcc-wg2.gov/...rochure_FINAL.pdf (20 page .pdf) - you'll see they attach caveats to various predictions and assign various confidence intervals. There is high confidence that the Earth is warming, especially in the Arctic. How that will affect things like the jet stream, monsoons, seasonal variations, isn't as well known.

We know more than in the 1970s about what we're doing to the climate and many of its effects. If anything, the trends indicate that many of the predictions have been too conservative - e.g. from 2008 - http://climate-emerg..._emissions_08.pdf (21 page .pdf) - 291 citations in the scientific literature.

It is increasingly unlikely that an early and explicit global climate change agreement or collective ad hoc national mitigation policies will deliver the urgent and dramatic reversal in emission trends necessary for stabilization at 450 ppmv CO2e. Similarly, the mainstream climate change agenda is far removed from the rates of mitigation necessary to stabilize at 550 ppmv CO2e. Given the reluctance, at virtually all levels, to openly engage with the unprecedented scale of both current emissions and their associated growth rates, even an optimistic interpretation of the current framing of climate change implies that stabilization much below 650 ppmv CO2e is improbable.

The analysis presented within this paper suggests that the rhetoric of 2 C is subverting a meaningful, open and empirically informed dialogue on climate change. While it may be argued that 2 C provides a reasonable guide to the appropriate scale of mitigation, it is a dangerously misleading basis for informing the adaptation agenda. In the absence of an almost immediate step change in mitigation (away from the current trend of 3% annual emission growth), adaptation would be much better guided by stabilization at 650 ppmv CO2e (i.e. approx. 4 C). 14 However, even this level of stabilization assumes rapid success in curtailing deforestation, an early reversal of current trends in non-CO2 greenhouse gas emissions and urgent decarbonization of the global energy system.

Finally, the quantitative conclusions developed here are based on a global analysis. If, during the next two decades, transition economies, such as China, India and Brazil, and newly industrializing nations across Africa and elsewhere are not to have their economic growth stifled, their emissions of CO2e will inevitably rise. Given any meaningful global emission caps, the implications of this for the industrialized nations are bleak. Even atmospheric stabilization at 650 ppmv CO2e demands the majority of OECD nations begin to make draconian emission reductions within a decade. Such a situation is unprecedented for economically prosperous nations. Unless economic growth can be reconciled with unprecedented rates of decarbonization (in excess of 6% per year 15 ), it is difficult to envisage anything other than a planned economic recession being compatible with stabilization at or below 650 ppmv CO2e.

Ultimately, the latest scientific understanding of climate change allied with current emission trends and a commitment to ‘limiting average global temperature increases to below 4 C above pre-industrial levels’, demands a radical reframing 16 of both the climate change agenda, and the economic characterization of contemporary society.


The IPCC consensus is that a 4 C global temperature rise is the average expected in the A1FI (fossil-intensive) scenario - http://www.ncbi.nlm....v/pubmed/21115513

This paper presents simulations of climate change with an ensemble of GCMs driven by the A1FI scenario, and also assesses the implications of carbon-cycle feedbacks for the climate-change projections. Using these GCM projections along with simple climate-model projections, including uncertainties in carbon-cycle feedbacks, and also comparing against other model projections from the IPCC, our best estimate is that the A1FI emissions scenario would lead to a warming of 4°C relative to pre-industrial during the 2070s. If carbon-cycle feedbacks are stronger, which appears less likely but still credible, then 4°C warming could be reached by the early 2060s in projections that are consistent with the IPCC's 'likely range'.


~60 years isn't that far off - your kids' cohort will see it.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New The S-REX description is best synopsis yet seen
That first *graphic is also the most concise depiction of our dilemma(s). Great find, thanks again.
Maybe best of all: it is a multi-national consensus,
so SCREW the politico-Mega-BS scatological blather. While reading for comprehension.
* Believe Tufte would be proud of this simplest-without-being-simplistic visual aid.

For those who cannot see that the Dilemmas are manifestly meta-governmental, transcending all 'gummint'-like slogans about every government:
there is not even any point in arguing with such.
In absence of a truly-viable World Government (an idea which struck terror in My Gramma) we are now facing a necessity of creating something-like just that.
Meanwhile, the deteriorating performance of many govt. operatives today (and of US citizens) will guarantee pulling all the rhetorical stops
--to guarantee that we Won't. (form such.)

Waiting for OUR 'lawmakers' to achieve adulthood, to learn how to cooperate when there is no alternative, to "emotionally comprehend" [the exponential function] Again!!
I deem those matters to be the largest of (all the well-described S-REX probabilities and confidence-levels.)

We'll see.. whether such well-crafted explanations can ever pierce the permanently-closed-mindsets all about.

Meanwhile, I think I'll have a
Lagunitas New Dog Town ale, some Chopin, and try to tune-out the fate of mere-planets in the maya..

(We should use the time remaining ... wisely, right?)


Carrion.. (The Breakfast of Champions muddled-minds?)



Ed: add Tufte: he's always In Season.
Expand Edited by Ashton Dec. 15, 2013, 09:33:33 PM EST
New there is a reason they call it an inconvenient truth
just 13 years ago, Dr. David Viner, senior scientist at Britain’s University of East Anglia’s climatic research unit, confidently predicted that, within a few years, winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event.”

“Children just aren’t going to know what snow is,” he said.
he was talking about the UK. So what has been happening lately?
http://www.ocregiste...-temperature.html
By the 2020s, Hansen predicted in 1986, the U.S. average annual temperature would rise 9 degrees Fahrenheit, or more, and up to 3 degrees by the 2010s.
so where are we on that? Problem is in the modelling, not the data. Carbon forcing will cause a greenhouse effect. How that works world wide is being proofed as we live and the models are not working well. What they need is the historical records from other sources to model with. What did the South East US look like during the medieval warming period that was much warmer than today? We know that the Mayans had one heck of a drought around then so we know that would be a repeatable event. Very few people are working the problem from that basis. Research isn't sexy. Algorithms isn't facts.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Gotcha quotes aren't evidence.
If you want to know what Viner and Hansen thought about climate science at various points, you should read their scientific articles, not what some popularizer said about them or what they said in partial quotes in a newspaper or a popular magazine.

E.g. Viner was a coauthor on this paper from 1999 - http://www.sciencedi...S0959378099000151

We describe a set of global climate change scenarios that have been used in a series of studies investigating the global impacts of climate change on several environmental systems and resources — ecosystems, food security, water resources, malaria and coastal flooding. These scenarios derive from modelling experiments completed by the Hadley Centre over the last four years using successive versions of their coupled ocean–atmosphere global climate model. The scenarios benefit from ensemble simulations (made using HadCM2) and from an un-flux-corrected experiment (made using HadCM3), but consider only the effects of increasing greenhouse gas concentrations. The effects of associated changes in sulphate aerosol concentrations are not considered. The scenarios are presented for three future time periods — 30-year means centred on the 2020s, the 2050s and the 2080s — and are expressed with respect to the mean 1961–1990 climate. A global land observed climatology at 0.5° latitude/longitude resolution is used to describe current climate. Other scenario variables — atmospheric CO2 concentrations, global-mean sea-level rise and non-climatic assumptions relating to population and economy — are also provided. We discuss the limitations of the created scenarios and in particular draw attention to sources of uncertainty that we have not fully sampled.


Sounds pretty careful to me.

I can't find a transcript of Hansen's June 10, 1986 testimony before that Senate subcommittee. All the "skeptic" sites point to newspaper articles. His famous 1988 paper and a recent discussion of its predictions is here - http://www.realclima...1988-projections/ - if you're interested.

That's pretty careful too. What do you find wrong with it?

If you want to know what the scientists have to say about their work on climate change, you really should read their work in their own words. You wouldn't take a fluff piece on Kernighan and Ritchie in a newspaper as indicative of the quality of their work on C, would you?

People who spend decades working on something generally aren't idiots. If something occurs to you in reading about these things, don't you think it also occurred to the people who spent years taking the data and weeks or months analyzing it and writing it up and satisfying reviewers before it was published? Look at the last page of Hansen's 1988 paper:

"Received January 25, 1988;
revised May 6, 1988;
accepted May 6, 1988.)"

Getting something published in a major journal is a long, painful process. Quackery is generally weeded out before the stuff shows up in print (of course, there are exceptions).

Hansen's work has held up very, very well. Don't believe the haters.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: Gotcha quotes aren't evidence.
no they are not, however when the scientists in question confidently make predictions that are used by non scientists to push an agenda, they are fair game.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New I'd like to see the quotes in context.
From personal experience with a reporter, it wouldn't be at all surprising if they missed important caveats.

Cheers,
Scott.
New You still don't get it
There is no point reasoning with Bill about climate change because algore. If algore is behind it, then it must be false. And probably evil. Hell, he even gave you a great big clue in his post header a couple posts back.
I think the single most compelling piece of evidence for global warming is that Fox News viewers think it's a hoax.
New Kinda-sorta...
He claims to accept that anthropogenic climate change is real, but he basically feels that Gore and Hansen (and now I guess Viner) are trying to spin it into a grift that will take all his money away.

Of course, the people who actually are making money off the current situation are the carbon-based fuels companies...

Cheers,
Scott.
New waitaminute a few posts ago Ash quoted an article
about no snow, that is what started this round, there is plenty of snow for everyone. Even tho Ash prolly watches the weather channel he still reports that lack of snow will cause economic damage to ski resorts. No mention that we and europe have a fuckton of it. That is reality rubbing against wishes, where did those wishes come from? Algore for one and the global warming industry whose economic model is gleaning our wallets.
Now if you can make commercials about penguins in the arctic and cry for funding to save polar bears quoting scientists as required to get that funding, I am entitled to point fingers and laugh.
You giving money to these people is no different than me giving political contributions to John Edwards but at least I can man up and say I fucked up.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New It's not easy to move between threads here...
This is Ashton's post that you're talking about - http://forum.iwethey...iwt?postid=384153

The Commonwealth Club: Climate One

Thu, Dec 12, 2013 -- 8:00 PM

Audio currently not available for this program.

Mountain Meltdown -- Winter is coming. But is the season what it used to be? Tourism is one of the largest economic sectors worldwide, and one of the least prepared for climate change. The last decade was the warmest on record, and the U.S. winter tourism industry experienced an estimated $1 billion loss and up to 27,000 fewer jobs because of diminished snowfall. Without action to reduce emissions, analysts predict many ski centers will eventually be forced to close, especially those at lower altitudes. The remaining mountains will become more dependent on snowmaking, which will lead to higher energy use and potentially higher ticket prices. How can winter tourism sustainably adapt to climate change? What are industry executives, skiers and snowboarders doing to mitigate effects and prepare for long-term challenges? The program presents a two-part conversation with climate experts, a professional snowboarder and industry leaders from the Mountain Collective, which includes some of North America's most popular ski resorts.


Do you dispute that? (Note the qualifiers before answering. ;-)

A story from 2012 - http://switchboard.n...s_and_no_fun.html

Currently, only 16% of the country is covered in snow, a mere third of the normal snow coverage throughout the country according to the National Weather Service. This national trend has caused snow and ski resorts all over the country to feel the negative effects on everything from their profits to their jobs. A recent Bloomberg article discusses specific hits that Vail Resorts, Inc. has taken since the beginning of the winter season. Shares there have fallen 15% since December 23rd and the lack of snow has not even allowed them to open their back bowls for the first time in 30 years.

In Boone, North Carolina, a smaller town nestled in the high country of the Appalachian Mountains and home to Appalachian State University (ASU), residents are also feeling the pain of the snowless winter. ASU Professor Kristian Jackson, an avid back country skier, has yet to make one trip into the high country at this point in the season due to the lack of snow.


Etc.

We both know that weather isn't climate, but people aren't making up these reports of lack of snow in many resorts.

An interesting site showing northern hemisphere snowfall anomalies is here - http://climate.rutge..._month=1&ui_set=2 It doesn't seem to have data near the pole (unsurprisingly). Moving between years, it's obvious that there are temporal and regional variations so looking at a particular ski resort on a short time scale isn't terribly meaningful either way.

The long-term average trend (not shown here) is clear enough though...

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: It's not easy to move between threads here...
The last decade was the warmest on record, and the U.S. winter tourism industry experienced an estimated $1 billion loss and up to 27,000 fewer jobs because of diminished snowfall
I see one lie and an assertion
http://wattsupwithth...ent_1989-2010.png the graph is from the following dataset http://climate.rutge.../wkcov.nhland.txt
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New >You< could not assimilate ALL-the-data/in every assertion..
PERIOD.

Nor can most-anyone else. That which you regularly tar as guesses demonstrates ignorance of the means by which EVERY THEORY ever got formulated into words via which most intelligent persons can -at least- catch the drift of the underlying science:

1) That 'done' already/tested/'verified" ... [only-EVER!] ... to the extent that: all of the then-perceived Gotchas [about said 'Theory'] have been addressed.. When one of These prevails: then THAT Theory needs further work/or dismissal.

2) However beautiful the theory and its passing of obvious first tests, it is never the Last Word: that process for attacking its foundations remains as a major tool for the perpetual 'grazing of 'a field' for error-weeds, maybe missed n the euphoria of.. IT WORKS!

This is How science uses all means of ALL competent Players ... in a constant aim to minimize all biases of researchers (and nit-pickers.. and even of.. the utterly-clueless-but-LOUD.) Go back and review how Relativity was "received": by various gradients: from the Utterly-flummoxed/auto-didacts/on through the established, credentialed, authentic other pukka-Scientists.

(Many years later--when techno caught up--re A.E.) the gravitational-displacement of light from a distant star--by Sol: added yet another Proof of the basic-soundness of Relativity. And now the Proofs are too numerous for most people to carry them all around: in their heads. [It is still not to be The Last Word.]

SO YES: a "guess" IS the incubator for the early-on crafting of a tenable hypothesis ... the rest is mind-sweat-equity, usually in the hundreds of thousand (Wo-)Man-hours spent from the first Aha!!
The common-thread of all your nitpicks (most-all, anyway) is your snide self-assurance that You somehow stand atop the pile of researchers-who-stand-atop Giants--and see further and clearer "ahead".

Which is utter B.S.-bloviation and/or mere megalomania (?)

We have the Proofs of Relativity [which, indeed someday shall be supplanted]--as was Newton--by a more cohesive Grand Theory-to-be-Tested: with much better comprehension of the Graviton (say) and other problems 'twixt the Weak-force the Strong-force etc. etc.

(Amateurs too have contributed Lots--especially in Astronomy, where their contributions are obvious even to the barely-informed.) All 'Theories' Grand- or ho-hum- achieve their Proof/or do-Not achieve their Proof--via subsequent testing as Takes Time.

As to a matter which Can/Will/is-already-doing: Alter the basic Earth environment, in ways almost entirely detrimental: not just to our pig-headed, mindlessly energy-wasteful species, but for ALL species, and especially mammals:

To Wait For a very-high-Confidence-level of Proof before Taking This Seriously: IS NOT EVEN A SERIOUS OPTION--to any but the befuddled, the manically-egoistic and the deranged. Had you even the training, years of experience doing authentic Science (not scientism) and other veritable-Chops
--your "take' on the entire Topic and how, currently it is being addressed is no more incisive-thus-Useful than.. a teaPartier ranting that a zygote should get a vote to kill its Host-live-person-on-"Principle".

DON'T YOU YET SEE ANY OF THIS? Manifestly you are not stupid, nor incapable of accurate thought, but your sniping is too damn close to the level of the aforementioned folks who will kill Doctors to Save a Zygote--and after the sucker is birthed, say: Fuck 'im; let the tyke pull self up by own bootstraps. Because Self-Sufficiency/Responsibility and ... the sociopath makers of stupid-ignorant slogans.

You Don't Get No Respect for emulating some of the prime-idiots ever to appear-and-be-quoted ... since hieroglyphics got invented. Not in 2013 when all the meeja are replete with people who should be barred-for-liff from ever using a fucking microphone. Your tack evokes those and nothing so sublime as Don Quixote

..or that (recent, relatively) Russki General who kept his finger off the Retaliate-button when all around him believed that a handful of US missiles had launched. THIS HAPPENED. One Man saved us-all from our paranoia. Next time..???

THERE's Our Hero and not just of, the former-Soviet Union--amongst the naysayer-Class.

Call me when ya gots yer Meteorology chops/validated by more than internal-mental-processes, 'K?
IMO, merely: you are NOT immune from the cumulative effects
of %time spent with My Gramma/and on that plethora of modrin junk sites ... aimed at the disenfranchised of all stripes.
We Are the 'impressions' we willingly seek-out.


I, feeling nibbled-to-death by your incessant schizophrenic ducks. Quack, Quack--yourself!
New of course not
but even a schmoo like me can look at this table of snow coverage
http://climate.rutge.../wkcov.nhland.txt
and see that we aint doing as bad as that pdf you quoted. The only assertion I make is we dont have enough facts to swirl theories on results of possible warming. All of the carbon being released isn't accounted for in the atmosphere so it must be going somewhere, probaly not in a good place. Keep sciencing away. Declaring that climate change is irrevocably making snow scarce when that is clearly not the case doesn't make the other potentially realistic outcomes seem realistic so to speak.
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Well then: guess we just watch TV, wait and see. Good plan.
New better than burning up 50 years of gdp in 5 years for no
discernible gain. How about some r@d money for carbon sequestration since we cant afford to stop burning it?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free American and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 58 years. meep
New Re: if I am scoffing in 30 years
its the predictions of what is going to happen the models that have been proven to be totally bullshit and by guesswork

The problem with your hypothesis is that this part hasn't actually happened.
     thought someone around here claimed that scientists - (boxley) - (26)
         No True Scotsman? Really? - (Another Scott) - (7)
             Nicely extirpated report vaporizes another slogan.. - (Ashton)
             oh, I like that sentence a lot! - (boxley) - (5)
                 That was 1974. Things have progressed a little since then. - (Another Scott) - (4)
                     Odd that the voice was so primitive, given: - (Ashton) - (3)
                         The IBM 7094 was a sweet machine! :) - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                             Lucky you! Got in just when No One Knew.. what was next. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                 I remember that Osborne financial fiasco well. - (a6l6e6x)
         cripes, box - (rcareaga) - (17)
             if I am scoffing in 30 years - (boxley) - (16)
                 It's a tough problem. - (Another Scott) - (14)
                     The S-REX description is best synopsis yet seen - (Ashton)
                     there is a reason they call it an inconvenient truth - (boxley) - (12)
                         Gotcha quotes aren't evidence. - (Another Scott) - (11)
                             Re: Gotcha quotes aren't evidence. - (boxley) - (10)
                                 I'd like to see the quotes in context. - (Another Scott) - (9)
                                     You still don't get it - (Silverlock) - (8)
                                         Kinda-sorta... - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                             waitaminute a few posts ago Ash quoted an article - (boxley) - (6)
                                                 It's not easy to move between threads here... - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                     Re: It's not easy to move between threads here... - (boxley)
                                                 >You< could not assimilate ALL-the-data/in every assertion.. - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                     of course not - (boxley) - (2)
                                                         Well then: guess we just watch TV, wait and see. Good plan. -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             better than burning up 50 years of gdp in 5 years for no - (boxley)
                 Re: if I am scoffing in 30 years - (pwhysall)

*THAT'S WHAT HE MEANT!!!*
78 ms