IIRC, you didn't expect him to win IN in the first place.

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Post #360,976

by Another Scott

7/18/12 1:54:28 PM

IIRC, you didn't expect him to win IN in the first place.

You think progressives in IN put him over the top there? Really? I think he won IN because lots of people (including a few progressives) wanted to give change a chance and lots of new voters were enthusiastic about him.

Sure, many of those people stayed home in 2010, but that's always the pattern - fewer people turn out in off-year elections, and the President usually loses seats. I've seen little that indicates the pattern was generally different because Obama was there.

I didn't find the article you posted persuasive. Or I think it only describes a small number of people. Carville versus Kucinich or something. E.g. "The Left has been especially critical of President Obama over the last three years." Really? http://www.gallup.co...remains-high.aspx Or is this a "no true Scotsman" argument?

If you want the system to change, you have to work within it. That means supporting the better candidate(s). They're not all the same.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #360,980

7/18/12 3:03:50 PM

No dispute. I did not think he would win in 2008.

I'd hoped he wouldn't because I knew if he came to "pass for a Liberal" let alone a "Progressive" as his campaign indicated, we'd be forever strapped with apologists who say "well, at least he's more liberal than Dick Armey" or some such. The bar for being labelled "Liberal" in this country was already so low that I suspect even Nixon could be so labelled. And that's the discussion we're bound to keep having from now on, thanks in no small measure to Obama's victory in 2008.

Obama's policies have turned us into a nation debating whether we should be as liberal as Nixon or as conservative as Armey or Bachmann. With Obama as the Left Sentinel, there is no longer a middle in American politics nor is there likely to ever be.

I'll not repeat my mistake of 2008. The only thing I will predict this go 'round is that if you go to sleep now and wake up in 3 years, review the implemented policies of the 3 years when you were asleep, you won't know if Mittens or Obama won. There's not as much guessing in this prediction because I have three years experience to draw upon.

Why PPACA is inexcusable, in a nutshell. - (mmoffitt) - (45) - July 16, 2012, 08:25:30 AM EDT

Corner cases are always there. - (Another Scott) - (39) - July 16, 2012, 10:20:06 AM EDT

A corner case? - (mmoffitt) - (38) - July 16, 2012, 04:13:26 PM EDT

How many votes were there for single payer? - (Another Scott) - (37) - July 16, 2012, 07:12:41 PM EDT

Hey... how many times... - (folkert) - (6) - July 16, 2012, 05:52:32 PM EDT

Different animals. - (Another Scott) - (5) - July 16, 2012, 06:33:52 PM EDT

I am not... - (folkert) - (4) - July 16, 2012, 09:34:36 PM EDT

Understood. Me neither; ditto. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - July 16, 2012, 09:44:56 PM EDT

In the absence of real leadership... - (mmoffitt) - (2) - July 17, 2012, 08:20:30 AM EDT

I can agree with that... - (folkert) - July 17, 2012, 08:34:50 AM EDT

"real leadership"? - (crazy) - July 17, 2012, 09:41:06 AM EDT

Your President killed Single Payer in the crib. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - July 16, 2012, 06:55:02 PM EDT

We've been through this ad nauseum... - (Another Scott) - July 16, 2012, 07:14:55 PM EDT

See what happens when you let the option on the table? - (mmoffitt) - (27) - July 16, 2012, 07:03:41 PM EDT

States are free to implement single payer if they want. - (Another Scott) - (26) - July 16, 2012, 07:20:50 PM EDT

You've never been more wrong. - (mmoffitt) - (25) - July 16, 2012, 08:24:23 PM EDT

You do understand that Obama isn't king, right? - (Another Scott) - (24) - July 16, 2012, 10:00:58 PM EDT

Well, then, similarly - (hnick) - (21) - July 17, 2012, 07:22:16 AM EDT

Heh. - (Another Scott) - (20) - July 17, 2012, 07:41:03 AM EDT

Swing and Another miss. - (mmoffitt) - (13) - July 17, 2012, 08:18:31 AM EDT

The votes weren't there. Reality intrudes again. -NT - (Another Scott) - (12) - July 17, 2012, 09:14:56 AM EDT

Changing arguments mid-stream gets you only so far. ;0) -NT - (mmoffitt) - July 17, 2012, 04:13:04 PM EDT

Re: The votes weren't there. Reality intrudes again. - (Ashton) - (10) - July 18, 2012, 06:16:13 AM EDT

So, can you or Scott help me out here? - (mmoffitt) - (9) - July 18, 2012, 09:22:41 AM EDT

Obama isn't the problem - Congress is the problem. HTH. - (Another Scott) - (4) - July 18, 2012, 10:08:42 AM EDT

The question remains. - (mmoffitt) - (3) - July 18, 2012, 11:34:05 AM EDT

We'll see in November. I'm optimistic myself. YMMV. ;-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (2) - July 18, 2012, 11:44:19 AM EDT

See post below. Either way, we all lose. -NT - (mmoffitt) - (1) - July 18, 2012, 01:33:54 PM EDT

Meh. -NT - (Another Scott) - July 18, 2012, 01:40:00 PM EDT

Actually no - (crazy) - (3) - July 18, 2012, 10:57:24 AM EDT

The "portion" was the determining factor. - (mmoffitt) - (2) - July 18, 2012, 01:31:40 PM EDT

IIRC, you didn't expect him to win IN in the first place. - (Another Scott) - (1) - July 18, 2012, 01:54:28 PM EDT

No dispute. I did not think he would win in 2008. - (mmoffitt) - July 18, 2012, 03:03:50 PM EDT

I suppose that's good to know. - (hnick) - (5) - July 17, 2012, 08:45:20 AM EDT

Reread DeLong's recent post. - (Another Scott) - (4) - July 17, 2012, 09:16:49 AM EDT

I remain sceptical - (hnick) - (3) - July 17, 2012, 10:20:54 AM EDT

Who would have been your candidate in 2008? - (Another Scott) - (2) - July 17, 2012, 10:41:41 AM EDT

Serious answer - (hnick) - (1) - July 17, 2012, 11:11:54 AM EDT

Thanks. I understand the disappointment. - (Another Scott) - July 17, 2012, 11:17:13 AM EDT

Really? I thought he could kill people whenever he wanted. - (mmoffitt) - (1) - July 17, 2012, 08:19:03 AM EDT

<sigh> -NT - (Another Scott) - July 17, 2012, 09:17:11 AM EDT

That's a crock - (crazy) - (4) - July 16, 2012, 10:44:32 AM EDT

So, she should ... - (mmoffitt) - (3) - July 16, 2012, 04:16:05 PM EDT

The PPACA is much better than nothing - (malraux) - (1) - July 16, 2012, 06:03:47 PM EDT

We'll see. I doubt it. -NT - (mmoffitt) - July 16, 2012, 06:46:41 PM EDT

You did not read what I wrote - (crazy) - July 17, 2012, 09:49:56 AM EDT

We can probably skip drugs and prostitution, but the mortgage business looks good.
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