Post #283,055
4/25/07 1:41:07 PM
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I've never been to a business meeting
That would raise a few eyebrows. But honestly, I'm not up to attending, I still haven't gotten my heart to stop trying to race since Saturday, and only started the anti-anxiety med yesterday. Plus all this has triggered a nice migraine.. grrrr. Waiting until the Wednesday night meeting is a good idea. If you're up to attending as an observer only, that would be good. I suggest that you make it clear to the deacon - in person and in in front of trusted witnesses - that you are withdrawing from all service *because* of the senior pastor's behaviour. This is, unfortunately, a type of game playing, but the deacon has let himself stay involved and must therefore play. But you don't have to. I did make it clear to the deacon on Saturday (before I had the panic attack) that I was upset with the senior Pastor's behavior, and I explained why in detail and told him I have proof of some of it in e-mail from the pastor's wife. Unfortunately, I suspect the deacon is going to be of little help because he's of the type that likes to avoid conflict. And I agree, I don't have to play their game. Being a non-member means they have little or no control over me, other than to let me do or not do something regarding particpating in the service. Almost makes me glad I never officially joined yet. (Why I haven't joined is a long story butin a nutshell, I came here to heal after my last church closed, and the pastor whom I had known for so many years left soon after I came back so I have yet to see any stabilization here that would make me feel comfortable about joining officially.) SIDE NOTE: I have never known how to deal with punctuation and parentheses... Conrad, are you reading this, does the punctuation go inside or outside of the parentheses if it ends a sentence?) I have no voice at the meeting due to not being a member, so I think I would find it hard to keep my mouth shut if I did go. ;) Besides, my mom would be mortified. Hehe! The people who have some power to do something, and who are my friends, have told me to sit tight, trust them and let them see what they can do...so that's what I'm trying to do. And you need to spend some personal time with God asking if He wants you stay there. That's important. Running away when He wants you to stay will just defer the problem, sometimes for years. If He wants you to stay, He will give you the strength to see it out. Believe me, I've been doing that too. I can't seem to determine for certain what He wants me to do here, but I am trying. I'm thinking perhaps tonight's meeting would be a sign or something. If He wants me to stay, I think something will get accomplished that will enable that. If He doesn't, I think maybe I'll have a clue by tonight. I do know though, that He doesn't want me to stay if doing so makes me sick. Thanks for your comments, and even though patience isn't my strong point, I'm trying to have some. :) Brenda
"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************
"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
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Post #283,113
4/25/07 10:01:18 PM
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Some clues, perhaps.
Believe me, I've been doing that too. I can't seem to determine for certain what He wants me to do here, but I am trying. I'm thinking perhaps tonight's meeting would be a sign or something. If He wants me to stay, I think something will get accomplished that will enable that. If He doesn't, I think maybe I'll have a clue by tonight. I do know though, that He doesn't want me to stay if doing so makes me sick. Thanks for your comments, and even though patience isn't my strong point, I'm trying to have some. :) Sometimes patience is taught by putting you in situations where you have to have some. I've been there. My church went through some tough times in the last two or three years. People caused trouble, people left and some wondered why they stuck around. I got to hear why from a couple of people. I also found some writings about conflict resolution in churches. An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not, the right answer was to actually stay put. Several people found this out by moving and then getting sent back, as it were. Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
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Post #283,119
4/25/07 10:17:04 PM
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for F**K sakes!!!
a church is an assembly of people like a bar.
a preacher is the equivelent of a bartender, he has a clientel he either likes or dont
the drinkers go there because they like to drink there or not.
If they dont like it they move elsewhere
you might not like the other people but you think the bartender is hot or cool or have a crush on the waitress/choirgirl.
G_d does not give a flying fuck about this shit, he just wants acknowledgement. Period.
If you cant do that without snivelling human fist fucking be come an atheist, its less annoying for the diety and the other worshippers.
Organised religion is a crock of shit, because humans indulge innit. A nice desert or a quiet night in the mountains or a few hours beside a river provides more interactione between G_d and man than any group wallet fuck.
hrupmph!
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,123
4/25/07 11:03:13 PM
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Oh, stop that!
It's not polite to parade reality before the churched - it threatens their warm fuzzies and they get annoyed. Also, the do-it-yourself mystical approach to G_d in the outdoors is scary to many.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #283,126
4/25/07 11:16:34 PM
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I find myself in utter agreement w/box
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #283,193
4/26/07 3:57:11 PM
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Interesting analogy...
a church is an assembly of people like a bar...a preacher is the equivelent of a bartender, he has a clientel he either likes or dont...the drinkers go there because they like to drink there or not...If they dont like it they move elsewhere... Interesting... however, there are also the employees at the "bar" Now mind you, the situation at a church is different, because most churches don't pay their musicians (that I am aware of). But I can't be considered a patron of the bar, because I am an "employee" per se. I go there and provide a service, i.e. live music. So although I can leave the "bar" and find another one, that doesn't mean I can find one that will give me that opportunity to serve by playing music. ...A nice desert or a quiet night in the mountains or a few hours beside a river provides more interactione between G_d and man than any group... I have to agree here too. I tend to find God more deeply in the quiet places in life. That's why I have to decide if the situation allows me to continue to do that at my church, and if not, I guess I need to start looking for another "bar". But right now I don't have to do anything but wait. Apparently my conversation with the deacon got some fires lit under the pastor, because he made sure my mom had the music line up and new sheet music last night and told her "we need to get our act together." The choir director (who is the deacon I mentioned), also is staying the choir director and told the pastor the choir needs music too. So my pulling out has caused some obvious ripples and the sheep have noticed and are bleating loudly about the problems. No concrete information about me and my situation yet, but I do know the pastor's wife put new songs in this week's service again that not only do the musicians not know, but the congregation doesn't either. So I guess we wait and see what their reaction is. Meanwhile, I'm just trying to get my heartrate back to normal and keep it from spiking again whenever I think about the situation...and taking it easy and staying away for now. Besides, it's still hockey playoff time. ;) Brenda
"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************
"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
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Post #283,212
4/26/07 10:02:06 PM
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And who are you to instruct me thus?
I spoke from experience, both first-hand and those of like-mind and like-beliefs. Yours are neither and therefore have no credibility (in my mind) on the subject.
I choose not to usually parade my belief system in front of you, nor do I make it a habit to criticize yours. This time, I had pertinent experience and knowledge that brought it out into the open, but it was clearly not directed to you. Please do me the courtesy of respecting this.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #283,213
4/26/07 10:12:13 PM
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no personal disrespect intended but the following sentence
" An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not" There is a book that you follow called the bible. I doubt there are any passages that relate to the all too human similarities between most churches and most neighborhood bars except for the puking and drunken bits.
You are enjoined to worship G_d, he doesnt give a flying falluja whether the monkey grinder is fighting with the auto dealer who is a deacon. THAT was the part that set me off. Ask a pastor about my comments and remember the closest to G_d folks in the bible were worshipping in the wilderness.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,219
4/27/07 1:07:38 AM
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I think your research falls short, my friend.
" An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not" There is a book that you follow called the bible. I doubt there are any passages that relate to the all too human similarities between most churches and most neighborhood bars except for the puking and drunken bits. You are enjoined to worship G_d, he doesnt give a flying falluja whether the monkey grinder is fighting with the auto dealer who is a deacon. THAT was the part that set me off. Ask a pastor about my comments and remember the closest to G_d folks in the bible were worshipping in the wilderness. You claim no worship of the same God I do, yet you claim to know His mind? I'm sorry, that does not work. It is no different from people decrying the way GNOME has been designed when all they will use is Windows. And I *know* we've seen those arguments in these forums. Being human, we tend to be readily distracted by others being human. Conflict in churches is often a distraction. A significant portion of Paul's letters were to churches having conflicts, some of them within their church, some of them with the locals. Even if you think a simple disgreement between just two people cannot matter, well, it can. Paul wrote about this (1 Corinthians 10:23-33), and although his immediate concern was about food considered 'unclean' by some believers and not by others it can be easily extrapolated to include any behaviour or action which could distract another in worship and/or service. I've seen it, several times. Incidentally, some of the people closest to worshipping God were only in the wilderness of religious persecution. Acts 6-7. One [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Stephen|Stephen], appointed by the apostles in the early church, along with six others, to help administer the early church's welfare. This is in Jerusalem circa AD 35. And immediately he is introduced into the narrative it becomes obvious he is close to God. Nearly every time he is mentioned by name, it is in the context of his obvious spiritual stature. He demonstrated Godly courage, wisdom and knowledge in standing up to the Judiastic priesthood and out-arguing them in their own theology (and he wasn't even a real Jew!). He used their own scriptures to denounce their own actions, in fact and very shortly thereafter died a painful death at their hands: [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning|He was stoned]. I, personally, have been in a situation where I felt I knew what God was telling me. You cannot deny that because it is my personal experience. By listening to what He was telling me and following it, I achieved significant personal growth as a human being. Again, this happened to me and to my benefit. OTOH, you seem determined to equate a church with a neighbourhood bar. If I may be so bold, what were the experiences you had that lead you to make such an equation? Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #283,224
4/27/07 8:13:42 AM
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well I have 2 brothers who're licensed pentacostal ministers
even been in a few churches every now and again and was married inside one. Not to get into a discussion over whether the entity you worship is the same entity that I believe in because that would be pointless. I dont know if you still occationally go out to a bar but the anology is apt.
you have regulars and occationals
people go to both bars and churches where they feel comfortable
the pastor leads a flock in a bar the head bartender serves that function. If the bartender is a nasty fuck pretty soon people will go elsewhere. If the pastor is the same the church leaders or the bar owners will have them replaced.
the above does not describe the worship of an entity at all, doesnt claim to touch on it, just adresses the human nature that Brenda was having trouble with. Human nature is not what you go to church for is it?
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,283
4/28/07 7:46:16 AM
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Human nature et al.
Human nature is indeed not what I go to my church for. However, Godly nature can be exhibited by humans in said church. That is often a draw to other humans, might I add.
But I take your point. We were attempting to assist in quite different ways and misread each other.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #283,265
4/27/07 7:34:08 PM
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Oh, come now, static
Your "feelings" really don't count for much. I, personally, have been in a situation where I felt I knew what God was telling me. You cannot deny that because it is my personal experience. By listening to what He was telling me and following it, I achieved significant personal growth as a human being. Again, this happened to me and to my benefit. Certainly box is in no position to say what you did or did not feel, but he's in an excellent position to judge that, to the extent you "felt" that you were actually in personal communication with an invisible anthropomorph modelled after a Bronze Age Bedouin chieftain, you were deluded. What's your opinion, looking back, on [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones|the "Reverend" Jim Jones'] claim that he was communing with the Almighty and acting on His instructions? My, that didn't take very long. If I told you that I had composed this post on instructions from Zeus, or Wotan, or Vishnu, or Mithra, or the Thirteenth Imam, you would dismiss this claim on the very sensible grounds that in five years here I have established myself as a "secular humanist," and must accordingly be pulling your chain. If, however, I persisted for years, averring in every post that I was now an acolyte of Apollo—or, to be a little more plausible for this millennium, a believer that [link|http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg|Joseph Smith is the prophet of God]...well, you'd dismiss me as deluded rather than insincere, since you are aware that Mormon doctrine is an ungainly compound of [link|http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165039/|delusions and lies], and can't hold a candle to your received truth. In short, you, box and I are almost on the same page, and could, for example, all enjoy a good laugh (assuming, of course, that we found ourselves in a caustic frame of mind after an evening spent carousing from tavern to tavern) at the expense of the deluded adherents of this false religion or that. You would not fluff your feathers menacingly if, for example, boxley made a snarky observation about the devotees of Thoth-Hermes or Anubis. But when he slights your faith and your "personal experience" you become more than a little defensive. I conclude from this that you believe that your Christian faith is entitled to a greater deference than that you or I might extend to the Mormons or to the Norse pantheon. Alternatively we secular humanist types ought, as a matter of good manners, meekly defer to anyone who claims that God is talking to him, whether it be static on IWT or Jim Jones in Guyana. Sorry, but I'm unconvinced. As far as I can see, in matters of disbelief you're just one illusory god away from my stance. Why not kick the fucking thing over and join us? cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #283,272
4/27/07 9:04:55 PM
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well actually I dont doubt his perceived communication from
above since the guy up stairs has a sense of humor and a snarky side as has been personally demonstrated to me over the years. Just pointing out the difference between defference and most organized religion.
As for the beer:30 next time Im on the left coast I'll take you up on that.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,282
4/28/07 7:44:03 AM
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I think we agree on something...
above since the guy up stairs has a sense of humor and a snarky side ... Quite. I ran across something some years ago that convinced me that God has quite a sense of humour. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was :-/ but the conviction nonetheless remains. Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #283,463
4/30/07 10:37:28 PM
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The Prime Directive, nevertheless remains
(whether in Sanskrit or jive,) like all those other re-re-retranslations of a transliteration by an anonymous army of successive scribes, wannabe-writers, sure-to-be: editors -- all laboring away with their own peculiar flavour of jelloware doing the Creating --
The [Absolute] is without attributes, is beyond being and nonbeing ...
(This little pretty-Big Much - has been around since, long before the year 0-CE, thus many more centuries before The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind [link|http://www.julianjaynes.org/| Julian Jaynes] (merely an indicator that contemplation of the immutable, the immanent and the ephemeral have continued along since.. ook! OOK!! meant duck.)
Now, should I have a few moments to stifle the jelloware, in those final minutes ... I think I'd like to conjure up the Medicine Man to Geronimo - surely He was a sort to have aided Geronimo himself, in seeing the vacuum/vacuous core of the sanctimonious invaders, as they trashed lands, spread disease and slaughtered buffalo - for the sheer perversity of Killing Easy Targets, while manufacturing coin purses from the mammaries hacked off the women, watching children sabered to death.
Geronimo Knew.. the soullessness of the entrepreneur and what was to Come: the nothingness inside a Shrub, that long before any of the present ones were spawned. It would Be Good to die in such company, and -- such may be conjured-up as readily, on-the-occasion: as any of the Brand-names. No need to die first, to find This out, y'know?
But I digress: *Without* [any!] *Attributes*
such as, [but not limited to]
"He", "Father", "Likes jokes" / hates-queers-S/He-'made' / will 'Save' assholes like Robertson and Foulwell / gives virgins to hot/horny new bomber-boy arrivals ...
as in, C'monnnn, Mon :-0
Ummm... never mind;
Sweet Reason has long been discredited by the cloaked ones: for that little stain on her dress. Now, if only we had a fairwitness. With a larynx.
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Post #283,468
4/30/07 10:52:52 PM
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In other words...
God is not just beyond what we imagine but beyond what we can imagine. :-)
Even in the Christian church it is instructive to remind ourselves of this from time to time.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
Post #283,474
5/1/07 12:20:04 AM
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Sounds about right -
I think you've Got It, about as far as word-things manage.
Pity that so many folks skipped that crucial clue, eh?
We could skip the warz! everybody's Right-enough, and the only blasphemy is claiming a Certainty of this or that sort. As with quantum mechanics and any other statistical crap-shoot: let the Casino serve as our Basilica.
;-j
PS - PBS is doing tonight, The Mormons @ 2 x 2 hour-sessions. I'll try.. for,
as Lao-TzuHeinlein said, best to grok thine enemy to fullness, in the battles for preservation of one's bedroom from the armies of the Righteous enforcers.
(Hey.. they're all set-up to cover the er, food shortages during the tribulatin times n'stuff - by dictat: ya wanna be a Mormon? Learn how to make fire from twigs - at least they believe in thermodynamics, however grudgingly.)
My deal:
Aces, deuces, treys wild and 5 Jokers in a deck
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Post #283,509
5/1/07 10:07:44 AM
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look here brother, who you jiving with that cosmik debris?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep
reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
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Post #283,512
5/1/07 10:18:23 AM
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Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
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Post #284,636
5/14/07 4:20:31 PM
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"The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
And, "Those who know do not speak. Those who do not know, speak freely."
Two gems from the East. Pity the Western religions never learned them.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
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Post #283,281
4/28/07 7:35:07 AM
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I think you might have missed it, too.
Your "feelings" really don't count for much. I presented my own experiences as justification for what I posted to Nightowl as pertinent advice. Box claimed to know better than I about how my faith works so of course I responded: I was defending his contradiction of my own experiences within my faith. And they were words lacking in authority within that context, too, until his most recent. Would I do the same if he slighted Zoroastrianism? No: I am not a Zoroastrianist. Certainly box is in no position to say what you did or did not feel, but he's in an excellent position to judge that, to the extent you "felt" that you were actually in personal communication with an invisible anthropomorph modelled after a Bronze Age Bedouin chieftain, you were deluded.
Neither is he in any position to say what I did or did not experience. And, really, neither are you in any position to state your concept of God is correct and mine is not within a faith system you clearly do not adhere to. :-) You could argue quite legitimately that the concept of 'God' is a delusion based on a Bronze Age Beduoin cheftain, but that is a point-of-view from outside Christian theology. Within Christian theology, there are viewpoints as to whether God cares whether we get along in worship, or just wants attention from us. Box's original assertion was that he knows this is the latter and I attempted to dispute his knowledge of this on Christian theological grounds including challenging his authority to dispute such. Ironic that it gets clearer when I reply to someone else... :-? Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
|
-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. | · my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] · |
|
