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New And the sheep are revolting...
Well, they are rising up, anyway....

We've had our new pastor for almost 3 years, (2 and a half this summer). At first he seemed like a decent guy, amiable, willing to listen, willing to discuss things, work out solutions.

Somewhere along the line, something changed. He didn't seem right at times. His behavior, well it seemed questionable at times. Oh he smooth talked his way through, explained everything away, but I started to see him in a different light.

I noticed that he didn't really always keep his word, in fact, he often forgot about even addressing an issue. I noticed that his promises to give us some proper guidelines for the music, to address issues about how the service should be handled, and etc, began to sound hollow and empty as months passed after that initial promise and nothing happened.

Then I saw a darker side of him than I ever wanted to see. An angry man, one with a vindictive and revengeful streak... calling it "My church" not "Our church" and saying, "He would MAKE us do what he wanted."

I began to fear that trusting him was wrong. That I had been led astray. What pastor talks about his flock in such a hateful manner? And he was talking to ME about it, because I had built a trusting relationship with him... or so I had thought.

When he began outlining his plans to essentially dismantle everything our church held dear and revamp it to the point where we would most likely not recognize it, I got scared... and I felt guilty for knowing these things.

I had been the go between for him and the music department, and now I was thinking this was not a safe place to be. In addition to that, I was having problems with his wife as well, because of music issues, and something was revealed that finally showed me the deception and underhandedness they were capable of. I was reeling, how could I have trusted these people? But I was smart. I pulled out of the middle and told them I was no longer their liason.

Since I was not officially a member, he could not force me to remain in the uncomfortable place of being between him and them, and I breathed a sigh of relief. But then without warning, they started to change the service musically to the point where I was completely unable to play the music. They were changing keys at a whim, something I can't do, changing order, blending one song into another and giving me little or no direction. It all came to a head on Easter Sunday, when I was also more or less ordered to stand down from the PA duties that I'd been entrusted to prior. I stood my ground and assisted the "rookie" they had grabbed to run the board, but I realized something was really up now.

This time I was smarter. After confirming what was going on, and indeed learning that the music was being evolved to a place where I most likely could not go, I spoke again to the pastor by phone and told him as much. He told me they planned to change things and that was that. Then he said something personal to me that was unacceptable, something to the order of my having no rights to feel a certain way. Since a few months before, he had also told me I had no right to hold a particular opinion, this was the last straw for me. I terminated the phone conversation and informed them through e-mail that I was taking a three week sabbatical from all my duties at the church.

I just learned that the Pastor removed the song-director from his position and they all found this out last night. The sheep of his flock are angry. They are hurt, they are tired of being ordered around like so many cattle, and they insist they are going to do something about it.

There is a big meeting coming up, and I suspect that is when it will all come down. I'm glad I'm still on my break for some time, because all I want to do is duck... and I keep asking myself, did I CAUSE this? Was I wrong to try and faciliate things between him and the music department when he first came? Was I wrong to try and help him get to know the congregation and how it worked, and what each one's musical needs were? Was I wrong to trust him?

I feel like I've trusted a wolf in sheep's clothing and now that wolf is released into the pasture on the unsuspecting flock...

If the sheep are forewarned, can they stop the wolf?

And why do I feel like the black sheep in all this?

Any thoughts and comments are welcome, as I'm trying to figure out if I was duped, how much I was duped, and was I stupid to not see it? What did I do wrong?

Brenda







"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New Power should never be vested . . .
. . in those who seek it - they are the wrong ones to entrust it to.

He and his wife seek control of a "church", but they can not control it. "Here is the church and here is the steeple, open the doors and see all the people."

Only one thing actually constitutes a church and that is the people. It is your tradition, surely you have not forgotten, as Christians to meet in houses or gardens and wherever you are a community. "Any that gather in my name . . . ".

So if he wants the "church", let him have it - let him grasp an empty shell that crumbles in his hands. It isn't really something worth fighting over. If some stay with him in the shell it is because they do not understand, or do not wish to understand their own church and their own religion.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Nor sweatered, for that matter.
Nor sweater-vested. For the non-sweatered have spoken, Lo! We shall not be clothed like unto Mr. Rogers!
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New As you said, the church is the people...
. . in those who seek it - they are the wrong ones to entrust it to.


I have to agree here, I think he has done something here that is akin to a hostile takeover of a company. The only thing in our favor is that he doesn't OWN the church building or the people in it.

He and his wife seek control of a "church", but they can not control it. "Here is the church and here is the steeple, open the doors and see all the people."


I concur, he seems to be losing more and more control of the core members as we speak. They are seeing what is happening and are taking a step back to think about it more.

Only one thing actually constitutes a church and that is the people. It is your tradition, surely you have not forgotten, as Christians to meet in houses or gardens and wherever you are a community. "Any that gather in my name . . . ".


Yep, and the original members that made up our church would be those people.

So if he wants the "church", let him have it - let him grasp an empty shell that crumbles in his hands. It isn't really something worth fighting over. If some stay with him in the shell it is because they do not understand, or do not wish to understand their own church and their own religion.


In some ways I agree with you here, since it seems to mirror one of the council member's comments, "If he wants it all, let him have it all, and we can all go on strike and do nothing. Then let's see how that goes over when they have to handle every duty on their own with none of the members lifting a finger." That would be more like giving them all the duties, since we certainly can't give them the people who are the "church"

I didn't exactly go on "strike" with my sabbatical, but I did leave them in the position of having to get information to the music department and the bulletin maker without going through me... and it's Thursday night and there are still no songs sent to the person who makes the bulletin OR given to the other persons who play the music besides the pastor's wife.

But in other ways I can't agree, in the sense of giving them the "building". I learned from one of the core members who explained to me that the elders hired this pastor and they have the power to fire him as well, if he is not meeting the needs of the congregation or doing things in the best interest of the congregation. And it was their church first, so if they have the power to remove him, rather than surrender their building to him, shouldn't they do that? I have no voice in this, well other than an opinion, because as a non-official member, I have no actual vote. So whatever they do, they will do, and I can only influence it by opinion.

I guess we wait and see if the sheep take back their "church" from the wolf. But my burning question still remains... should I have seen that he was a "wolf in sheep's clothing" sooner? Is it my fault I was possibly "used" to gain a foothold with the congregation's trust?

Had I not assisted him at the start, maybe he would have fallen flat on his face and all the inadaquacies and problems that are now evident might have come out sooner... but I was working towards the good of the church, and the good of the church meant having things run smoothly enough so that I and the rest of the music department were able to do our jobs.

Hard call, and I'm still not sure I made the right one.

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 12:43:54 AM EDT
New Oh, I didn't mean he should be given . . .
. . anything he doesn't own. The building is not his, but he has been put in charge it's use. If the people pull back, that use will be hollow, a shell. He will either leave it, or be thrown out of it.

I see no blame on your part. Some people make their living by deception and they are good at it. You were not looking to be deceived, you were working with a person placed in a position of trust and who presumably had been judged worthy of that trust. You performed your role honorably for as long as you could. It was not you who failed here.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Thank you, I needed to hear that!
Oh, I didn't mean he should be given anything he doesn't own. The building is not his, but he has been put in charge it's use. If the people pull back, that use will be hollow, a shell. He will either leave it, or be thrown out of it.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. :) So the "strike" is in effect, the same thing then.

I see no blame on your part. Some people make their living by deception and they are good at it. You were not looking to be deceived, you were working with a person placed in a position of trust and who presumably had been judged worthy of that trust. You performed your role honorably for as long as you could. It was not you who failed here.


I learned this evening from someone else that he favors himself as an "actor" and loves to act. He has often "acted out" roles in sermons as Biblical characters...and I can see how easily someone who is so capable of "acting" could "act" in a manner to deceive and be undetectable at it.

I figured if anyone could tell me whether I was to blame here, it would be you all at IWT... and I was correct. Thank you Andrew, for your assessment of things, it really has eased my mind. :)

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 01:31:04 AM EDT
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 20, 2007, 01:32:36 AM EDT
New It sounds like he's misunderstood his authority.
Clearly that needs to be brought home to him and I really doubt you're in the position to do it. But it appears that those that are know they have to act.

You did right, IMO. You stood up to his manipulation and declined to be a part of it.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New what he needs is an empty collection plate day
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New The alternative would be worse
If you made a mistake, then the correct decision would have been to distrust the pastor from the start. That is not good for any organisation, let alone a church. That would risk alienation of a perfectly good pastor, hurt feelings and a dysfunctional church. Whatever you could have done could result in damage. Starting off by distrusting the pastor would actively damage relations and is a bleak existence anyway. You made the best choice from a paranoid point of view.
Matthew Greet


Choose Life. Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol, and dental insurance. Choose fixed interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisurewear and matching luggage. Choose DIY and wondering who the fuck you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up brats you spawned to replace yourself. Choose your future. Choose life... But why would I want to do a thing like that? I chose not to choose life. I chose somethin' else. And the reasons? There are no reasons. Who needs reasons when you've got heroin?
- Mark Renton, Trainspotting.
New Major Update -- it's getting personal
Well, while I waited to see what the congregation is doing, (the big meeting actually wasn't last Sunday, it's this Wednesday), someone launched a more personal attack on me last Saturday.

The preacher basically sicced my Deacon on me, who called me at home, accusing me of things I had not done, including calling and harassing the pastor's wife. Then the Deacon listened to my side of the story, but then tried to get me to agree to pretend we had never talked or he had never upset me, and not to tell anyone he called me including my mom. Bad move. I can't pretend anything, never could.

My body gave out, I had a full-blown panic attack, to the point where I was sliding out of the chair and onto the floor. I have a serious bruise on my elbow, but John was able to hear me banging the window base and come in and stop me from hyperventilating.

A conversation with my doctor led to the decision of getting back on my anti-anxiety medication for a little while, and taking an extended medical leave of absence from this church.

I'm relieved at least for awhile, I have a doctor's recommendation to stay home. Makes me feel less guilty for leaving all my friends and my mom in the lurch with the music.

But my question is this: I know the deacon didn't mean to upset me, he didn't know better or what to say... but should I consider this now as a direct attack on me from the preacher? And if so, if anything, should I do about it? I haven't talked to the deacon at all since the attack, he probably heard me screaming and gasping for breath, I'm sure, but I don't know if he knows exactly what happened, or if he feels guilty about it or something. I don't blame him though, I blame the pastor, because he was the one who sent the deacon to call me in the first place. Probably because the Pastor knows I won't answer the phone if he called me.

So in your opinion, should I explain anything to the Deacon, or let him come ask me or what?

I never knew going to church could be so dangerous.

Thanks,

Brenda

Edited for clarity.



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 27, 2007, 12:00:45 AM EDT
New thats why I dont attend a regular place of worship
because of the fucking people. You dont have to explain yourself to anyone. Or step foot in there at all. I suggest checking out a different place, look around, sit in on a few services. Dont get involved, just attend. As for mom, just explain that church isnt supposed to be a nightmare, you just want to worship quietly(elsewhere)
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New You need not explain anything to anyone.
Since it causes you problem, stay out of it.

You owe these services to no one, you do it to be helpful, but not if it causes you to be attacked. I suggest just opting out until a new pastor arrives, at that point you can get back into the swim or not as you see fit then.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Maybe you should check out the Quakers
Aren't they the ones who sit quietly in the pews?
Seamus
New Time to find a new church
Really, you have no contract forcing you to stay, and fighting the preacher is unlikely to be satisfying.

Church is supposed to be a place of relief and solace, if it can't even do that then bail.

Jay
New Been thinking along that line too.
I'm considering all options. If they somehow get the preacher either in line or gone, I would consider returning. If he stays in charge in the manner he is in, or doesn't remedy any of the problems, I will most likely scram.

The nicest part right now though is I don't have to make such a decision at this time. I have all the time I want to wait and see what happens with tomorrow's meeting and whatever else might happen.

Right now the goal is to get my heart to stop racing every time the thoughts cross my mind, and I'm making progress on that. :)

Thanks for all your opinions, and I'm taking them under consideration.

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New Don't think. Do.
Activity is uncalled for, period.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Concur
The house doesn't matter. Find a new one.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. (Herm Albright)
New Re: Don't think. Do.
Activity is uncalled for, period.


I'm a little confused Beep. Do is activity, isn't it, but you state activity is uncalled for, so I'm not sure what you meant.

Like I said, I'm waiting to see what, if anything happens tonight and in the next couple weeks while I'm on my extended leave, and meanwhile I'm looking into the area of another church. I just have to decide which one to check out, but I'm waiting till I feel better both physically and mentally.

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New What they did. >that< activity.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Ah got it now. Thanks.



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New What does John think?
I'm sorry that your place of worship has become another place of stress for you.

John knows you better than any of us. What does he think you should do?

You can visit with your friends and mom without it being at the church. They can get along without you for a while.

Try to look a few steps ahead. What do you think is most likely to happen if you talk to the deacon or preacher about what happened? Do you think it will result in changes that lessen the stress you feel? Will it make it worse? Will it change anything at all? What does John think will happen?

You can't change people. You can only change yourself. You'll continue to be under a lot of stress as long as you think that you can fix people - it's a hopeless battle.

Just my $0.02. Good luck.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Re: What does John think?
I'm sorry that your place of worship has become another place of stress for you.


Thanks, it's really been a shock because I thought I could trust this pastor.

John knows you better than any of us. What does he think you should do?


Well, he agrees on the extended leave for awhile, get myself back together. I don't think he was too happy that they caused a panic attack to happen where he found me on the floor hyperventilating, but he did call the deacon back to tell him I was allright, because I'm sure the deacon didn't intend to cause that, he had no idea how I would react as I'm not terribly close with him.

You can visit with your friends and mom without it being at the church. They can get along without you for a while.


Yes, they can, but they are a strong pull and the other thing is it sort of feels like I've left them to the wolves... i.e. they were supposed to get the song information for the bulletin without me being in the middle (as I've been for a very long time), and hence there was no song information given to the bulletin maker, the songs were blank, and the lines of communication broke down. But the problem is they never really existed before this. I was the main link in the chain of communication, I communicated between them and the pastor and his wife.

Try to look a few steps ahead. What do you think is most likely to happen if you talk to the deacon or preacher about what happened? Do you think it will result in changes that lessen the stress you feel? Will it make it worse? Will it change anything at all? What does John think will happen?


Well, the preacher I am more or less done talking to, because I don't appreciate the things he's been saying to me lately. The deacon however, I see as a pawn and I feel that he was used to attack me, and he probably genuinely thought the accusations were true. And I know he didn't mean to cause me a panic attack, but he had no idea that telling me to forget the conversation ever happened and not to even tell my mom about it would trigger that sort of no-win situation. There was no way I could have done that, I had gotten upset all over again and mom would have known. I just don't want him to think this was all his fault, as I still view it as all engineered by the pastor accusing me in the first place and having the deacon confront me.

If they confront the pastor tomorrow night and get some answers about what will be going on, things could get better as long as I stay out of the chain of communication between them and the pastor. I intend to discuss that with the bulletin maker soon, and tell her that I want to get out from the middle as completely as I can.

And unless the pastor's wife starts giving me enough information to be able to play the songs with her, or stops changing keys on a whim, and etc., I would not be playing the main service with her.

But if I did none of those things, I could still, IF I can cope with the atmosphere, play the prelude and offertory with my mom. I'm still not sure what to do about the PA if I do come back, that's a wild card issue there.

John doesn't know what will happen, but he also thinks that enough regular core people are upset about all this that we should not make any major decisions until after tomorrow night's meeting. Or barring that, let them float on their own a few weeks... (last week's service was a mess with no song numbers in the bulletin, the songs having been chosen THAT MORNING, and her throwing in songs that none of the congregation knew except their friends whom they are trying to mold the service to please at the expense of the rest of the original members.

You can't change people. You can only change yourself. You'll continue to be under a lot of stress as long as you think that you can fix people - it's a hopeless battle.


I don't really think I can change or fix people. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I just think maybe there have been a number of misunderstandings, and it also seems quite often that the left hand (pastor's wife) of the church doesn't know what the right hand (Pastor) is doing. For example, it was told to the rest of the music department that the wife would be choosing the songs early in the week, but the wife informed my mom Sunday morning she had just learned about this task being hers.

The hardest thing for me though would be going back and being just an observer as it were, not playing or running the PA, I think that would feel really weird.

BTW I apologize to everyone here that this thread started to become more about my personal life than I intended. I had started it out as a healthy rant and looking for opinions about my church situation, but when it started to affect my health, well...that changed things a lot.

But I do appreciate all your opinions and I'm taking them all under consideration. Right now I guess I have to wait and see if we find anything out or if the core members have recourse against the situation. Meanwhile, researching new churches isn't a bad idea. ;)

Brenda




"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New You do need to re-engineer your role.
Waiting until the Wednesday night meeting is a good idea. If you're up to attending as an observer only, that would be good. I suggest that you make it clear to the deacon - in person and in in front of trusted witnesses - that you are withdrawing from all service *because* of the senior pastor's behaviour. This is, unfortunately, a type of game playing, but the deacon has let himself stay involved and must therefore play. But you don't have to.

And you need to spend some personal time with God asking if He wants you stay there. That's important. Running away when He wants you to stay will just defer the problem, sometimes for years. If He wants you to stay, He will give you the strength to see it out.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New I've never been to a business meeting
That would raise a few eyebrows. But honestly, I'm not up to attending, I still haven't gotten my heart to stop trying to race since Saturday, and only started the anti-anxiety med yesterday. Plus all this has triggered a nice migraine.. grrrr.

Waiting until the Wednesday night meeting is a good idea. If you're up to attending as an observer only, that would be good. I suggest that you make it clear to the deacon - in person and in in front of trusted witnesses - that you are withdrawing from all service *because* of the senior pastor's behaviour. This is, unfortunately, a type of game playing, but the deacon has let himself stay involved and must therefore play. But you don't have to.


I did make it clear to the deacon on Saturday (before I had the panic attack) that I was upset with the senior Pastor's behavior, and I explained why in detail and told him I have proof of some of it in e-mail from the pastor's wife. Unfortunately, I suspect the deacon is going to be of little help because he's of the type that likes to avoid conflict. And I agree, I don't have to play their game. Being a non-member means they have little or no control over me, other than to let me do or not do something regarding particpating in the service. Almost makes me glad I never officially joined yet.

(Why I haven't joined is a long story butin a nutshell, I came here to heal after my last church closed, and the pastor whom I had known for so many years left soon after I came back so I have yet to see any stabilization here that would make me feel comfortable about joining officially.)

SIDE NOTE: I have never known how to deal with punctuation and parentheses... Conrad, are you reading this, does the punctuation go inside or outside of the parentheses if it ends a sentence?)

I have no voice at the meeting due to not being a member, so I think I would find it hard to keep my mouth shut if I did go. ;) Besides, my mom would be mortified. Hehe!

The people who have some power to do something, and who are my friends, have told me to sit tight, trust them and let them see what they can do...so that's what I'm trying to do.

And you need to spend some personal time with God asking if He wants you stay there. That's important. Running away when He wants you to stay will just defer the problem, sometimes for years. If He wants you to stay, He will give you the strength to see it out.


Believe me, I've been doing that too. I can't seem to determine for certain what He wants me to do here, but I am trying. I'm thinking perhaps tonight's meeting would be a sign or something. If He wants me to stay, I think something will get accomplished that will enable that. If He doesn't, I think maybe I'll have a clue by tonight. I do know though, that He doesn't want me to stay if doing so makes me sick.

Thanks for your comments, and even though patience isn't my strong point, I'm trying to have some. :)

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New Some clues, perhaps.

Believe me, I've been doing that too. I can't seem to determine for certain what He wants me to do here, but I am trying. I'm thinking perhaps tonight's meeting would be a sign or something. If He wants me to stay, I think something will get accomplished that will enable that. If He doesn't, I think maybe I'll have a clue by tonight. I do know though, that He doesn't want me to stay if doing so makes me sick.


Thanks for your comments, and even though patience isn't my strong point, I'm trying to have some. :)


Sometimes patience is taught by putting you in situations where you have to have some. I've been there.

My church went through some tough times in the last two or three years. People caused trouble, people left and some wondered why they stuck around. I got to hear why from a couple of people. I also found some writings about conflict resolution in churches. An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not, the right answer was to actually stay put. Several people found this out by moving and then getting sent back, as it were.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New for F**K sakes!!!
a church is an assembly of people like a bar.
a preacher is the equivelent of a bartender, he has a clientel he either likes or dont
the drinkers go there because they like to drink there or not.
If they dont like it they move elsewhere
you might not like the other people but you think the bartender is hot or cool or have a crush on the waitress/choirgirl.
G_d does not give a flying fuck about this shit, he just wants acknowledgement. Period.
If you cant do that without snivelling human fist fucking be come an atheist, its less annoying for the diety and the other worshippers.
Organised religion is a crock of shit, because humans indulge innit. A nice desert or a quiet night in the mountains or a few hours beside a river provides more interactione between G_d and man than any group wallet fuck.
hrupmph!
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Oh, stop that!
It's not polite to parade reality before the churched - it threatens their warm fuzzies and they get annoyed. Also, the do-it-yourself mystical approach to G_d in the outdoors is scary to many.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I find myself in utter agreement w/box
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Interesting analogy...
a church is an assembly of people like a bar...a preacher is the equivelent of a bartender, he has a clientel he either likes or dont...the drinkers go there because they like to drink there or not...If they dont like it they move elsewhere...


Interesting... however, there are also the employees at the "bar" Now mind you, the situation at a church is different, because most churches don't pay their musicians (that I am aware of). But I can't be considered a patron of the bar, because I am an "employee" per se. I go there and provide a service, i.e. live music. So although I can leave the "bar" and find another one, that doesn't mean I can find one that will give me that opportunity to serve by playing music.

...A nice desert or a quiet night in the mountains or a few hours beside a river provides more interactione between G_d and man than any group...


I have to agree here too. I tend to find God more deeply in the quiet places in life. That's why I have to decide if the situation allows me to continue to do that at my church, and if not, I guess I need to start looking for another "bar".

But right now I don't have to do anything but wait. Apparently my conversation with the deacon got some fires lit under the pastor, because he made sure my mom had the music line up and new sheet music last night and told her "we need to get our act together." The choir director (who is the deacon I mentioned), also is staying the choir director and told the pastor the choir needs music too. So my pulling out has caused some obvious ripples and the sheep have noticed and are bleating loudly about the problems.

No concrete information about me and my situation yet, but I do know the pastor's wife put new songs in this week's service again that not only do the musicians not know, but the congregation doesn't either. So I guess we wait and see what their reaction is.

Meanwhile, I'm just trying to get my heartrate back to normal and keep it from spiking again whenever I think about the situation...and taking it easy and staying away for now.

Besides, it's still hockey playoff time. ;)

Brenda





"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New And who are you to instruct me thus?
I spoke from experience, both first-hand and those of like-mind and like-beliefs. Yours are neither and therefore have no credibility (in my mind) on the subject.

I choose not to usually parade my belief system in front of you, nor do I make it a habit to criticize yours. This time, I had pertinent experience and knowledge that brought it out into the open, but it was clearly not directed to you. Please do me the courtesy of respecting this.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New no personal disrespect intended but the following sentence
" An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not" There is a book that you follow called the bible. I doubt there are any passages that relate to the all too human similarities between most churches and most neighborhood bars except for the puking and drunken bits.

You are enjoined to worship G_d, he doesnt give a flying falluja whether the monkey grinder is fighting with the auto dealer who is a deacon. THAT was the part that set me off. Ask a pastor about my comments and remember the closest to G_d folks in the bible were worshipping in the wilderness.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I think your research falls short, my friend.
" An unusually common thread was that when someone didn't know or couldn't tell if God wanted them to move on or not" There is a book that you follow called the bible. I doubt there are any passages that relate to the all too human similarities between most churches and most neighborhood bars except for the puking and drunken bits.

You are enjoined to worship G_d, he doesnt give a flying falluja whether the monkey grinder is fighting with the auto dealer who is a deacon. THAT was the part that set me off. Ask a pastor about my comments and remember the closest to G_d folks in the bible were worshipping in the wilderness.


You claim no worship of the same God I do, yet you claim to know His mind? I'm sorry, that does not work. It is no different from people decrying the way GNOME has been designed when all they will use is Windows. And I *know* we've seen those arguments in these forums.

Being human, we tend to be readily distracted by others being human. Conflict in churches is often a distraction. A significant portion of Paul's letters were to churches having conflicts, some of them within their church, some of them with the locals. Even if you think a simple disgreement between just two people cannot matter, well, it can. Paul wrote about this (1 Corinthians 10:23-33), and although his immediate concern was about food considered 'unclean' by some believers and not by others it can be easily extrapolated to include any behaviour or action which could distract another in worship and/or service. I've seen it, several times.

Incidentally, some of the people closest to worshipping God were only in the wilderness of religious persecution. Acts 6-7. One [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Stephen|Stephen], appointed by the apostles in the early church, along with six others, to help administer the early church's welfare. This is in Jerusalem circa AD 35. And immediately he is introduced into the narrative it becomes obvious he is close to God. Nearly every time he is mentioned by name, it is in the context of his obvious spiritual stature. He demonstrated Godly courage, wisdom and knowledge in standing up to the Judiastic priesthood and out-arguing them in their own theology (and he wasn't even a real Jew!). He used their own scriptures to denounce their own actions, in fact and very shortly thereafter died a painful death at their hands: [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning|He was stoned].

I, personally, have been in a situation where I felt I knew what God was telling me. You cannot deny that because it is my personal experience. By listening to what He was telling me and following it, I achieved significant personal growth as a human being. Again, this happened to me and to my benefit.

OTOH, you seem determined to equate a church with a neighbourhood bar. If I may be so bold, what were the experiences you had that lead you to make such an equation?

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New well I have 2 brothers who're licensed pentacostal ministers
even been in a few churches every now and again and was married inside one. Not to get into a discussion over whether the entity you worship is the same entity that I believe in because that would be pointless. I dont know if you still occationally go out to a bar but the anology is apt.

you have regulars and occationals
people go to both bars and churches where they feel comfortable
the pastor leads a flock in a bar the head bartender serves that function. If the bartender is a nasty fuck pretty soon people will go elsewhere. If the pastor is the same the church leaders or the bar owners will have them replaced.

the above does not describe the worship of an entity at all, doesnt claim to touch on it, just adresses the human nature that Brenda was having trouble with. Human nature is not what you go to church for is it?


thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Human nature et al.
Human nature is indeed not what I go to my church for. However, Godly nature can be exhibited by humans in said church. That is often a draw to other humans, might I add.

But I take your point. We were attempting to assist in quite different ways and misread each other.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Oh, come now, static
Your "feelings" really don't count for much.
I, personally, have been in a situation where I felt I knew what God was telling me. You cannot deny that because it is my personal experience. By listening to what He was telling me and following it, I achieved significant personal growth as a human being. Again, this happened to me and to my benefit.
Certainly box is in no position to say what you did or did not feel, but he's in an excellent position to judge that, to the extent you "felt" that you were actually in personal communication with an invisible anthropomorph modelled after a Bronze Age Bedouin chieftain, you were deluded.

What's your opinion, looking back, on [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones|the "Reverend" Jim Jones'] claim that he was communing with the Almighty and acting on His instructions? My, that didn't take very long. If I told you that I had composed this post on instructions from Zeus, or Wotan, or Vishnu, or Mithra, or the Thirteenth Imam, you would dismiss this claim on the very sensible grounds that in five years here I have established myself as a "secular humanist," and must accordingly be pulling your chain. If, however, I persisted for years, averring in every post that I was now an acolyte of Apollo—or, to be a little more plausible for this millennium, a believer that [link|http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg|Joseph Smith is the prophet of God]...well, you'd dismiss me as deluded rather than insincere, since you are aware that Mormon doctrine is an ungainly compound of [link|http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165039/|delusions and lies], and can't hold a candle to your received truth.

In short, you, box and I are almost on the same page, and could, for example, all enjoy a good laugh (assuming, of course, that we found ourselves in a caustic frame of mind after an evening spent carousing from tavern to tavern) at the expense of the deluded adherents of this false religion or that. You would not fluff your feathers menacingly if, for example, boxley made a snarky observation about the devotees of Thoth-Hermes or Anubis. But when he slights your faith and your "personal experience" you become more than a little defensive. I conclude from this that you believe that your Christian faith is entitled to a greater deference than that you or I might extend to the Mormons or to the Norse pantheon. Alternatively we secular humanist types ought, as a matter of good manners, meekly defer to anyone who claims that God is talking to him, whether it be static on IWT or Jim Jones in Guyana. Sorry, but I'm unconvinced. As far as I can see, in matters of disbelief you're just one illusory god away from my stance. Why not kick the fucking thing over and join us?

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New well actually I dont doubt his perceived communication from
above since the guy up stairs has a sense of humor and a snarky side as has been personally demonstrated to me over the years. Just pointing out the difference between defference and most organized religion.

As for the beer:30 next time Im on the left coast I'll take you up on that.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New I think we agree on something...
above since the guy up stairs has a sense of humor and a snarky side ...


Quite.

I ran across something some years ago that convinced me that God has quite a sense of humour. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was :-/ but the conviction nonetheless remains.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New The Prime Directive, nevertheless remains
(whether in Sanskrit or jive,) like all those other re-re-retranslations of a transliteration by an anonymous army of successive scribes, wannabe-writers, sure-to-be: editors -- all laboring away with their own peculiar flavour of jelloware doing the Creating --

The [Absolute] is without attributes, is beyond being and nonbeing ...

(This little pretty-Big Much - has been around since, long before the year 0-CE, thus many more centuries before The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind [link|http://www.julianjaynes.org/| Julian Jaynes] (merely an indicator that contemplation of the immutable, the immanent and the ephemeral have continued along since.. ook! OOK!! meant duck.)


Now, should I have a few moments to stifle the jelloware, in those final minutes ... I think I'd like to conjure up the Medicine Man to Geronimo - surely He was a sort to have aided Geronimo himself, in seeing the vacuum/vacuous core of the sanctimonious invaders, as they trashed lands, spread disease and slaughtered buffalo - for the sheer perversity of Killing Easy Targets, while manufacturing coin purses from the mammaries hacked off the women, watching children sabered to death.

Geronimo Knew.. the soullessness of the entrepreneur and what was to Come: the nothingness inside a Shrub, that long before any of the present ones were spawned. It would Be Good to die in such company, and -- such may be conjured-up as readily, on-the-occasion: as any of the Brand-names. No need to die first, to find This out, y'know?


But I digress: *Without* [any!] *Attributes*
such as, [but not limited to]
"He", "Father", "Likes jokes" / hates-queers-S/He-'made' / will 'Save' assholes like Robertson and Foulwell / gives virgins to hot/horny new bomber-boy arrivals ...


as in, C'monnnn, Mon :-0



Ummm... never mind;
Sweet Reason has long been discredited by the cloaked ones: for that little stain on her dress. Now, if only we had a fairwitness. With a larynx.
New In other words...
God is not just beyond what we imagine but beyond what we can imagine. :-)

Even in the Christian church it is instructive to remind ourselves of this from time to time.

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Sounds about right -
I think you've Got It, about as far as word-things manage.
Pity that so many folks skipped that crucial clue, eh?

We could skip the warz! everybody's Right-enough, and the only blasphemy is claiming a Certainty of this or that sort. As with quantum mechanics and any other statistical crap-shoot: let the Casino serve as our Basilica.

;-j

PS - PBS is doing tonight, The Mormons @ 2 x 2 hour-sessions. I'll try.. for,
as Lao-TzuHeinlein said, best to grok thine enemy to fullness, in the battles for preservation of one's bedroom from the armies of the Righteous enforcers.

(Hey.. they're all set-up to cover the er, food shortages during the tribulatin times n'stuff - by dictat: ya wanna be a Mormon? Learn how to make fire from twigs - at least they believe in thermodynamics, however grudgingly.)


My deal:
Aces, deuces, treys wild and 5 Jokers in a deck
New look here brother, who you jiving with that cosmik debris?
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 51 years. meep

reach me at [link|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net|mailto:bill.oxley@cox.net]
New Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New "The name that can be named is not the eternal name."
And, "Those who know do not speak. Those who do not know, speak freely."

Two gems from the East. Pity the Western religions never learned them.
bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
New I think you might have missed it, too.
Your "feelings" really don't count for much.


I presented my own experiences as justification for what I posted to Nightowl as pertinent advice. Box claimed to know better than I about how my faith works so of course I responded: I was defending his contradiction of my own experiences within my faith. And they were words lacking in authority within that context, too, until his most recent. Would I do the same if he slighted Zoroastrianism? No: I am not a Zoroastrianist.

Certainly box is in no position to say what you did or did not feel, but he's in an excellent position to judge that, to the extent you "felt" that you were actually in personal communication with an invisible anthropomorph modelled after a Bronze Age Bedouin chieftain, you were deluded.


Neither is he in any position to say what I did or did not experience. And, really, neither are you in any position to state your concept of God is correct and mine is not within a faith system you clearly do not adhere to. :-) You could argue quite legitimately that the concept of 'God' is a delusion based on a Bronze Age Beduoin cheftain, but that is a point-of-view from outside Christian theology. Within Christian theology, there are viewpoints as to whether God cares whether we get along in worship, or just wants attention from us. Box's original assertion was that he knows this is the latter and I attempted to dispute his knowledge of this on Christian theological grounds including challenging his authority to dispute such.

Ironic that it gets clearer when I reply to someone else... :-?

Wade.


Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please



-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

· my ·
· [link|http://staticsan.livejournal.com/|blog] ·
· [link|http://yceran.org/|website] ·

New Time for a new religion.
I recommend Gnosticism.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
[link|http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?pwhysall|A better terminal emulator]
[image|http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/pwhysall/Misc/saveus.png|0|Darwinia||]
New Hehe, well I was thinking more of the lines of...
Puckism. ;)

Yep... an entire religion devoted to hockey... the only requirement would be that one regularly roots for their favorite team or teams, (up to 5 allowed), and dutifully follows their season. Of course, in addition to that, being able to cheer loudly when your team scores a goal, chant the opposing goalie's name as a distraction, and wearing the team's insignia and colors couldn't hurt as well!

Actually, Peter, I was considering complete cold turkey... going to a Church Of Christ, where there are no instruments to get bent out of shape over. :)

Brenda



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New That's just Canadian



We posture as apostles of fair play, as good sportsmen, as professional knights-errant-- and we throw beer bottles at the umpire when he refuses to cheat for our side...We save the black-and-tan republics from their native [statesmen]--and flood them with "deserving" democrats of our own. We deafen the world with our whoops for liberty--and submit to laws that destroy our most sacred rights...We play policeman and Sunday-school superintendent to half of Christendom--and lynch a darky every two days in our own backyard.


H.L. Mencken, 1914
Expand Edited by tuberculosis Aug. 21, 2007, 05:55:39 AM EDT
New Brenda...That's the best reply I've ever heard from you
And absolutely the best possible reply given the context you could have made.

You're learning, Grasshopper!

;-)
jb4
"It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment."
George W. Bush, when asked if he believed Iraq was in a state of civil war (Newsweek, 26 Feb 07)
New Thanks, JB. :)



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
New Do Brenda's panic attacks
...really rise to the level of "Religion, Philosophy, Metaphysics" merely because they have most recently manifested themselves inside a church?

[link|http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/dysfunction.jpg|Just wondering.]

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New Re: Do Brenda's panic attacks
...really rise to the level of "Religion, Philosophy, Metaphysics" merely because they have most recently manifested themselves inside a church?


The topic I originally posted and asked about was not my panic attacks. The topic I posted about was whether I had done the right thing in regards to the pastor, and I got my response.

The panic attack was just another factor in the situation, and hadn't even happened yet when I made my original post. The post was about whether a pastor should be behaving in this manner and what could be done about it.

I also edited post #282930 to clarify that my panic attack did not manifest itself inside a church. It happened right here at home. ;)

Hope this explains it.

Brenda

Edited for more clarity and accuracy.



"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." -- By Geoffrey F. Abert
****************************

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind, don't matter - and those who matter, don't mind." -- By Dr. Seuss
***********************************

"Sometimes it takes a whole lot more strength to walk away than to stand there and fight." -- By the character of John Abbott: said on Young & Restless on 5/19/06
*********************************
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 26, 2007, 11:53:40 PM EDT
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 26, 2007, 11:54:25 PM EDT
Expand Edited by Nightowl April 27, 2007, 12:02:09 AM EDT
     And the sheep are revolting... - (Nightowl) - (50)
         Power should never be vested . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (6)
             Nor sweatered, for that matter. - (admin)
             As you said, the church is the people... - (Nightowl) - (4)
                 Oh, I didn't mean he should be given . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                     Thank you, I needed to hear that! - (Nightowl) - (1)
                         It sounds like he's misunderstood his authority. - (static)
                 what he needs is an empty collection plate day -NT - (boxley)
         The alternative would be worse - (warmachine)
         Major Update -- it's getting personal - (Nightowl) - (39)
             thats why I dont attend a regular place of worship - (boxley)
             You need not explain anything to anyone. - (Andrew Grygus)
             Maybe you should check out the Quakers - (Seamus)
             Time to find a new church - (JayMehaffey) - (6)
                 Been thinking along that line too. - (Nightowl) - (5)
                     Don't think. Do. - (bepatient) - (4)
                         Concur - (jbrabeck)
                         Re: Don't think. Do. - (Nightowl) - (2)
                             What they did. >that< activity. -NT - (bepatient) - (1)
                                 Ah got it now. Thanks. -NT - (Nightowl)
             What does John think? - (Another Scott) - (23)
                 Re: What does John think? - (Nightowl) - (22)
                     You do need to re-engineer your role. - (static) - (21)
                         I've never been to a business meeting - (Nightowl) - (20)
                             Some clues, perhaps. - (static) - (19)
                                 for F**K sakes!!! - (boxley) - (18)
                                     Oh, stop that! - (Andrew Grygus)
                                     I find myself in utter agreement w/box -NT - (rcareaga)
                                     Interesting analogy... - (Nightowl)
                                     And who are you to instruct me thus? - (static) - (14)
                                         no personal disrespect intended but the following sentence - (boxley) - (13)
                                             I think your research falls short, my friend. - (static) - (12)
                                                 well I have 2 brothers who're licensed pentacostal ministers - (boxley) - (1)
                                                     Human nature et al. - (static)
                                                 Oh, come now, static - (rcareaga) - (9)
                                                     well actually I dont doubt his perceived communication from - (boxley) - (7)
                                                         I think we agree on something... - (static) - (6)
                                                             The Prime Directive, nevertheless remains - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                 In other words... - (static) - (1)
                                                                     Sounds about right - - (Ashton)
                                                                 look here brother, who you jiving with that cosmik debris? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                     Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho? -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                 "The name that can be named is not the eternal name." - (mmoffitt)
                                                     I think you might have missed it, too. - (static)
             Time for a new religion. - (pwhysall) - (4)
                 Hehe, well I was thinking more of the lines of... - (Nightowl) - (3)
                     That's just Canadian -NT - (tuberculosis)
                     Brenda...That's the best reply I've ever heard from you - (jb4) - (1)
                         Thanks, JB. :) -NT - (Nightowl)
         Do Brenda's panic attacks - (rcareaga) - (1)
             Re: Do Brenda's panic attacks - (Nightowl)

Nobody EVER expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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