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New No it isn't.
[link|http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/science|Science]:

1.\ta branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2.\tsystematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3.\tany of the branches of natural or physical science.
4.\tsystematized knowledge in general.
5.\tknowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6.\ta particular branch of knowledge.
7.\tskill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.


and [link|http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/philosophy|Philosophy]:

1.\tthe rational investigation of the truths and principles of being, knowledge, or conduct.
2.\tany of the three branches, namely natural philosophy, moral philosophy, and metaphysical philosophy, that are accepted as composing this study.
3.\ta system of philosophical doctrine: the philosophy of Spinoza.
4.\tthe critical study of the basic principles and concepts of a particular branch of knowledge, esp. with a view to improving or reconstituting them: the philosophy of science.
5.\ta system of principles for guidance in practical affairs.
6.\ta philosophical attitude, as one of composure and calm in the presence of troubles or annoyances.


are (perhaps subtly) different things. Ultimately science comes down to evidence, predicative ability, and falsify-ability. Philosophy is about rationality and isn't tied to evidence or the physical world as strongly. IMO.

I think some of you folks are talking past each other. I think Ashton is saying that there are many things that science can't explain. I think Peter is saying that a purported scientific proposition that cannot present an explanation that is supported by evidence is not, in fact, a scientific proposition. "It's bollocks."

I think [link|http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/|Victor J. Stenger] (author of the original linked piece) is saying roughly the same thing as Peter.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Good point. Science isn't 'Philosophy'
it's A philosophy...

Even in your definitions, Natural Philosophy (2) is more properly known as Physics...

I think Ashton is saying that there are many things that science can't explain. I think Peter is saying that a purported scientific proposition that cannot present an explanation that is supported by evidence is not, in fact, a scientific proposition. "It's bollocks."

In fact, what Peter said was that everything 'paranormal' has been 'found' to be either fraud or chance.

Now, I don't know about this instance of trying to fit 'paranormal' phenomena into a scientific framework, myself. But if he really meant "that a purported scientific proposition that cannot present an explanation that is supported by evidence is not, in fact, a scientific proposition "It's bollocks."" in general, he would HAVE to reject both 'dark energy' and string theory, and say that they are 'bollocks'.



Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Re: Good point. Science isn't 'Philosophy'
In fact, what Peter said was that everything 'paranormal' has been 'found' to be either fraud or chance.

It has.
Now, I don't know about this instance of trying to fit 'paranormal' phenomena into a scientific framework, myself. But if he really meant "that a purported scientific proposition that cannot present an explanation that is supported by evidence is not, in fact, a scientific proposition "It's bollocks."" in general, he would HAVE to reject both 'dark energy' and string theory, and say that they are 'bollocks'.

No, I wouldn't. I'd call them "hypotheses", because that's what they are.

Get the difference? Dark energy and string theory may or may not be right. The scientific method of hypotheses-observation-evidence-GOTO 10 will either support or demolish them.

But there's a fuckload more convincing maths for either of those two ideas than there is for the half-baked gibberish that's summarised by the phrase "quantum mind".


Peter
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     slow sunday? how about a discussion of quantum metaphysics - (boxley) - (54)
         It's bollocks. -NT - (pwhysall) - (48)
             wassamatta u dont understand the math? -NT - (boxley) - (47)
                 There's nothing to understand. - (pwhysall) - (46)
                     ICLRPDx4 - (Steve Lowe)
                     Like string theory and dark energy - (imric) - (1)
                         Yes, exactly like those. - (pwhysall)
                     perhaps you missed a few things - (boxley) - (41)
                         Re: perhaps you missed a few things - (pwhysall) - (40)
                             Careful.. - (Ashton) - (39)
                                 some people dont grok uncertainty as certainty - (boxley)
                                 Oh please. - (pwhysall) - (35)
                                     so physics is wrong? energy dissapates? its not a constant? - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Cold fusion, eh? - (pwhysall)
                                     Spent a lot of time around Jesuits? - (Ashton) - (31)
                                         Re: Spent a lot of time around Jesuits? - (pwhysall) - (30)
                                             It's a Republican thing - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                 Re: It's a Republican thing - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                     Agreeable.. - (Ashton)
                                             Science IS Philosophy. - (imric) - (26)
                                                 No it isn't. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                     Good point. Science isn't 'Philosophy' - (imric) - (1)
                                                         Re: Good point. Science isn't 'Philosophy' - (pwhysall)
                                                 You don't understand the scientific method... - (pwhysall) - (22)
                                                     question then - (boxley) - (12)
                                                         My stab at it. - (Another Scott) - (3)
                                                             since energy transforms rather than dissapate - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                 The field lines collapse... - (admin) - (1)
                                                                     no mystery, if thats the explaination - (boxley)
                                                         Odd question. - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                                             Agreed - - (imric)
                                                         Ah, geez. - (ubernostrum) - (5)
                                                             1/4 of an ounce, everybody knows that -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                 That's what, 50 bucks? -NT - (imric) - (3)
                                                                     Up here that'll run you at least 65$CDN - (jake123) - (2)
                                                                         is that for the good BC stuff or the ONT ragweed? -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                             It's not ragweed anymore - (jake123)
                                                     Therefore, your PHILOSOPHY - (imric) - (8)
                                                         Please don't misrepresent what I said. - (pwhysall) - (5)
                                                             Horse- - (imric) - (4)
                                                                 Whatever. - (pwhysall) - (2)
                                                                     *chuckle* Justify Quantum Mind? - (imric)
                                                                     ICLRPD (new thread) - (drewk)
                                                                 Dupe, ignore - (pwhysall)
                                                         I'm reminded of Willard Van Orman Quine - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                                             omigawd___ the tragedy of psoriasis^h^h_ ab != ba -NT - (Ashton)
                                     Bzzzzzt - (drewk)
                                 Ooh! Me next! - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                                     Re: Ooh! Me next! - (Ashton)
                     Another article. - (Another Scott)
         It's a surd - (Ashton)
         See. - (ubernostrum) - (3)
             wassamtter you quit drinking ? :-) -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                 Nah. - (ubernostrum) - (1)
                     ICLRPD. (new thread) - (Another Scott)

I bellied up to the sandbar, and he poured me the usual: Rusty Snail, hold the grunion, shaken, not stirred. With a peanut butter and jellyfish sandwich on the side - heavy on the mako.
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