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New Saw 'An Inconvenient Truth' last night.
Had Gore merely adopted that stance, demeanor -- revealed in simple fashion his history (from yout) of intense interest in the disturbing graphs of the planetary EKG -- accorded similar kudos to his mentor (the Teacher who in fact, contributed one of the disturbing graphs/extrapolations) - why

..likely not even Diebold and the Florida Virago could have prevailed; the chances we have for ameliorating the effects of our profligacy would be 1000 times greater than today ... ... and our TWO MORE YEARS of active anti-planet action+bafflegab?
..not even within the ordinary nightmare.

Everybody knows the theme. I'd add only that, just maybe Mr. Gore has met Mr. Tufte: clearly (now) he GETS the "intelligent display of complex concepts in graphical form." Note his skit-with-ladder, to tack-on a giant addition, at the end: to the er, Y-axis. Avoiding use of the word exponential: he demonstrates what such a word might mean. As in,

Don't drink and derive..

(The DVD contains an update on the movie - which was in can ~8/05.)
A new graph: the pH of ocean water, its relationship to the dying of the coral reefs -- its slope nesting / paralleling the other slopes, except for the ones already gone-exponential within recent 20ish years.

The acid plays hell with the complex carbonate formation of all those shells.. and on down to the PLANKTON. Think about where on the food chain doth PLANKTON appear. Hint: got root?

See it. It's nothing remotely like a boring recitation of academic numbers.



But I fear it cannot be enough nor indeed.. may Anything be enough to awaken the sleepwalkers hooked on the fantasy of interminable consumption. Because:

Getting haircut today; previous long-term tonsorial tech had met her demise. Candy was a sage, with shears as mere appendage. :-/
New one:

This is a person who has grokked, not-quite to fullness, the Gorgeous Screwing thus far admininstered by the er Administrators.. apparent via usual chit-chat during clip-clip..

Then, out of the blue... asks, Do you think that the moon landings actually happened?



Words fail; I no verbs. Assuredly: the Gold Ingots WILL outweigh The Planet - on those balance pans.

New The people who NEED to watch this
won't, because:

1. They hate Al Gore and will never believe anything that he says.

2. The refuse to believe that man has any part in the current environmental changes.

3. They'd rather watch wrestling.
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
New Another problem
he may have "gotten everything right" in the documentary (whatever) but he just can't shut up. To come out later and throw cigarette smoking into the mix of "great causes of global warming" just make him look like a crackpot.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Feel free to provide credible evidence for #2
You will struggle so to do.

The climate is changing.

Whether man has anything to do with it is not nearly as decided as the ecomentalists would like you to believe.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New And the climate always has been changing
New And always will.


Peter
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New I hear a Dylan song playing in the backround.
Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Begs the real Question, no?
The Question seems a lot simpler, especially given your Boxish flippant dismissal:

Can humans preserve/prolong a liveable temperature range? or Not?
(Fix blame on Maxwell's demon or Demon consumption later, for schadenfreude.)
Yeah, those who worry about planetary conditions are a real Pain in the A$$, a wart on commerce - and there are all those boring Numbers, interfering with daily play.

Case 1:
The Ozone Hole.
Fluorocarbons noted to be present, man-made and bad.
Legislated replacements.
Ozone Hole fixed.. so far: ergo, we Can influence matters. Some of them? Many of them?
(? yes-yes - let's wait 200 years and see if it returns, presuming that 'we' still can. Observe and similar frills that is, as hunter-gatherers?)

Case 2:
Greenhouse effect noted, detected, comprehended (as to why it is that long-waves are reradiated forms of incident short-wave incoming radiation.)
Tentative, testable conclusions: More CO-2 ==> Hotter. We Know why.
Inventories being taken re the Methane sumps under various ice-caps == ongoing;
just a start at engaging a few brains on the highest scale: survival of a certain petulant species. It's all New for homo-sap, of course - to think about the nest as being irreplaceable, while infrastructure maintenance goes perpetually unfunded.

Now then, shall we dance around the %man-caused or shall we actually take steps to minimize a process which we see (already) can lead to conditions that will be irreversible.. since not all chemical processes Are Reversible. And we now grok what 'exponential' means elsewhere in daily liff.

Priorities? (it's popular to set those)

How long should we 'wait for more evidence'?
(..of what: that it IS getting hotter? or 'what are the odds we can begin reversing the trend'?)
How long have we got?
How much ___ is ___?
How soon will ___ likely occur if we do ___ don't do ___???
.
.
.
.
.
Whom/What Shall we Blame?
(Can a planet's inhabitants sue themselves for inAttention?)
If they Can: Murican Lawyers will be there First.


Did you actually see the flic? Think those rifts in the ice packs are Photoshopped? (As with new barber, were the moon landings real?)




We have always been at war with East Asia
We have always taken for granted our Right to mindlessly trash the space-ship and suffer no consequences.
New ozone hole was fixed? horses doovers
do we need to not put smog into the air so cities are breathable? Sure. Do we need to strangle the world economy to allow china to burn more leaded coal? No, what we need to do is what we can. Second hand smoke contributes to global warming? Not as much as vegetarians do.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Present the evidence for anthropogenic climate change.
I promise you, you will struggle so to do.

That the climate is changing is beyond question.

It's getting warmer. And shortly, it'll get cooler. (there's a period of cooling coming up, starting about 2012, iirc. Mind you, it's the Russkis who think that)

Planets do that from time to time.

There are many good reasons to pursue more cleaner, efficient useage and production of energy, but climate change isn't one of them.

Unfortunately, we're entering a period where according to political expediency, climate change (aka The Sky Is Falling) will be wheeled out to alternately distract and tax the shit out of the electorate.

In short, blah blah blah CLIMATE CHANGE blah blah iraq blah blah CLIMATE CHANGE blah blah biometric id cards blah blah CLIMATE CHANGE blah blah tax increases blah blah terror laws blah blah CLIMATE CHANGE blah blah state surveillance of the populace blah blah CLIMATE CHANGE.

And you know that even if it were true, that the USA, India and China would simply ignore it and carry on more-or-less regardless, having made some appropriate noises for the cameras.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
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New Agree about the likely/traditional response.
And have 'agreed' since tykehood in the observations of my very-own eyes: that our Kultur was/is one based upon profligate waste. The rest of the world has been easily seduced into the same mindset.

Nor was that merely my own myopic take - I could reel off the (unread) book titles from, even before Silent Spring. 'Population' - remember that one? You can be Lots sloppier in your spaceship if all the staterooms aren't full -- and the inmates start burning the 'trees'.

Humans are notoriously incompetent at estimating scale & relativity. This will be a ~ Final Exam on, your money or your life (?) See the bloody flic and Then see what anthropogenic sources you just might suspect could have a teensy thing to do with.. the population ascension rates, the blip in late 1800s. Etc.

Yes of Course the next loudest sounds shall indeed be CLIMATE! {spin} Spin SPIN. It's what Machiavelli would have done, too.
Nor will $Empires$ be expected to suddenly go all warm puppy about loving-fellow-men - not just their women: the powerful will insist upon Bullion being the first loaded into any lifeboats.

Of course - we Shall be making decisions with insufficient data, some of those in emergency mode, interspersed amidst the CLIMATE! {spin} Spin SPIN CLIMATE! {spin} Spin SPIN background buzz. Consensus? Wait for that, perhaps?

Take a look at some of the graph deltas, then investigate whether they are from Exxon or Other - accreditation is not a step to be skipped, in haste.

Decisions will be wrong, predictably; if most are of the same quality as manufactured Iraq - we're doomed. But they need not be. Still, we appear to have a vanishingly small window for education of millions/billions of the slothful about the Whys, in language a 12 yo can understand.

Since we've never before tried a crash program for Growing Up, well.. nobody knows if the species could turn away from the 24/7 entertainment long enough to learn how to ponder. Nobody knows that.

Wish ourselves luck - it'll take a lot of that.
(Alas, I won't be around to witness Wall Street under water. But I'll always have Paris. S'enough.)

New Don't get me started about Silent Spring
The worldwide DDT ban resulted in about 50-80 million extra deaths from malaria.

Another fine example of the human race's complete inability to estimate risk.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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Expand Edited by pwhysall Dec. 1, 2006, 01:27:37 AM EST
New Event order: 1) See.. the flic___2) Then.. critique the flic

New nope, just like a Michael Moore flick
one does not have to see something made by an agent provocateur to sniff the offal in the message. If I want to understand global warming I dont go to a movie about it. I suppose if you wanted to understand evolution a screening of [link|http://www.flockofdodos.com/|http://www.flockofdodos.com/] let me know how it turns out.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Gee that's just what certain Bible-thumpers say -
"No I haven't read all of it - but I know the parts I like."

Your 'review' remarks are thus fairly rated 0, possibly -0
(Please don't go into teaching, OK?)

New so, how did you rate my recommended flick, backatcher
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New I'll start with this

Humans cause global warming, US admits

The US Government has acknowledged for the first time that man-made pollution is largely to blame for global warming.

But it has again refused to shift its position on the Kyoto Protocol, an international treaty designed to mitigate global warming which the Bush administration rejected last year.

In a 268-page report submitted to the United Nations, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) endorsed what many scientists have long argued - that human activities such as oil refining, power generation and car emissions are significant causes of global warming.

The White House had previously said there was not enough scientific evidence to blame industrial emissions for global warming.

The submission of the EPA report came on the same day that all 15 European Union nations ratified the Kyoto pact.

At odds with industry

"Greenhouse gases are accumulating in the Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing global mean surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise," the report concluded.

"The changes observed over the last several decades are likely mostly due to human activities."

That position is at odds with the president's supporters in the motor, oil and electricity industries - who maintain that more research is needed to be certain of the link between global warming and the by-products of manufacturing.

The United States is the world's largest emitter of so-called greenhouse gases.

Last year, the Bush administration triggered international outrage when it walked away from the Kyoto treaty.

President Bush said the treaty's goal of reduction in emissions would be too costly to the American economy.

Despite the admission of a link between human activities and global warming, the US Government has still refused to ratify the treaty, instead emphasising a voluntary approach to greenhouse gas emissions.

Such an approach is "expected to achieve emission reductions comparable to the average reductions prescribed by the Kyoto agreement, but without the threats to economic growth that rigid national emission limits would bring," the report said.

Areas 'wiped out'

The EPA report also acknowledged that global warming was set to continue - forecasting that total US greenhouse gas emissions will increase by 43% from 2000 and 2020.

The report recommended various adaptation strategies, such as "changing planting dates and varieties to significantly offset economic losses and increase relative yields".

It also concluded that global warming would probably wipe out certain fragile areas altogether.

"A few ecosystems, such as alpine meadows in the Rocky Mountains and some barrier islands, are likely to disappear entirely," the report said.

Environmental groups claim the new report is a major U-turn by the Bush administration.

"[The report] undercuts everything the president has said about global warming since he took office," said Philip Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust.

Climate change is on the agenda of a global summit on sustainable development taking place in Johannesburg in August.

The US is expected to face heavy criticism at the meeting, especially from the EU, for not doing more to fight global warming.

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2023835.stm|BBC News story]
lincoln

"Chicago to my mind was the only place to be. ... I above all liked the city because it was filled with people all a-bustle, and the clatter of hooves and carriages, and with delivery wagons and drays and peddlers and the boom and clank of freight trains. And when those black clouds came sailing in from the west, pouring thunderstorms upon us so that you couldn't hear the cries or curses of humankind, I liked that best of all. Chicago could stand up to the worst God had to offer. I understood why it was built--a place for trade, of course, with railroads and ships and so on, but mostly to give all of us a magnitude of defiance that is not provided by one house on the plains. And the plains is where those storms come from." -- E.L. Doctorow


Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem.


I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the United States.


[link|mailto:golf_lover44@yahoo.com|contact me]
New these are the same people that reported WMD's in Iraq right?
a government report twists science to meet a political agenda. Read all of the reports, you decide. Breathing clean air is a good thing. Drinking clean water also. Global Warming? Does anyone have a clue on how to stop industrial polution in developing societies with no interest in shutting down? So the plan is to reduce the west to ruin instead? Sounds like a plan, NOT.
thanx,
bill
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
New Anthropogenic climate change is required...
...so that you can be taxed some more.

If it's natural and inexorable, what would be the point in whacking another 10p on a litre of petrol?

The EPA "endorsing" a report doesn't actually constitute any kind of scientific proof; this story is simply an attempt to use the perceived authority of the EPA to consolidate a political position.

Also, you should read what's linked to your link:

[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1500558.stm|http://news.bbc.co.u...hi/uk/1500558.stm]

"Indeed, who would have guessed that London's air is cleaner than at any time since the Middle Ages, that the Earth's acreage of forests is actually growing and that marine pollution is falling?"

Every time a government says something (and your link is from 2001), your bullshit detector should go into overdrive. They never say things without an agenda, visible or otherwise.


Peter
[link|http://www.no2id.net/|Don't Let The Terrorists Win]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home]
Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
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New I understand where you're coming from, but... 27 kB img.
I too recall the dire warnings in the 1960s-1970s of an incipient ice age. And it is true that we really don't understand enough about the feedback mechanisms that moderate the Earth's temperature. (A quick overview of many of the issues in climate change science is in [link|http://www.geo.cornell.edu/eas/education/course/descr/EAS201/Site/Lecture%20Notes_files/Chapter%2016-20.2006.JPM.pdf|these] lecture notes from Cornell - 18 page .pdf.) Remember that 2006 was predicted to be a terrible year for hurricanes....

Ice ages seem to be correlated with long-period changes in the Earth's eccentric orbit. The rise of the Himalayas and the western continental US have apparently changed the climate. There have been vast changes in climate and CO2 levels that occurred millions of years before humans arrived.

A worrying aspect of the CO2 record in ice cores, etc., is that there are strong indications that the Earth's temperature has changed very quickly several times in the past. I don't know the details of the measurements and extrapolations to know whether they're doing something wrong, and back of the envelope calculations indicate there would have to be a tremendous change in albedo or heat input to cause such a change (the atmosphere and Earth's surface have a big mass and reasonably large heat capacity, so big changes in reflectivity or heat imput are required for a big change in temperature), but there you are.

According to the link:

Table 1: Carbon in the Atmosphere (Oceanus, 1986/6, v. 29 #4). BMT stands for billion metric tones.\n\nChanges in Atmospheric Carbon\n   1980   346 ppmv CO2 740 BMT C\n   1860   280 ppmv     600 BMT\n   Change  66 ppmv     140 BMT\n\nAdditions of C to the Atmosphere\n   Deforestation        150 BMT\n   Burning Fossil Fuels 150 BMT\n   Total                300 BMT\n\nPresent Rate of Addition of C to the Atmosphere\n   Deforestation        ~1 BMT/yr\n   Burning Fossil Fuels  5 BMT/yr\n   Total                 6 BMT/yr\n\n   Atmospheric C increase 2.5 BMT/yr\n   Ocean C increase       2.5 BMT/yr


Note that that table is based on numbers from 1980 - they're much higher now. Yes, these numbers are a small change in the total numbers for atmospheric carbon, but they're happening over decades while it took millions of years for the fossil carbon to be locked away. It's not at all clear that the Earth's buffering actions can work on such short time scales. We should be concerned about it and should work on gaining better understanding of the science. And we should also work to reduce CO2 emissions even if future results tell us that anthrogenic CO2 is only a small perturbation.

The Kyoto Protocol has had big problems from the beginning. Though Clinton signed it, he didn't submit it to the Senate for ratification because he knew it would be rejected. It was controversial even back then (e.g. [link|http://epw.senate.gov/107th/Hagel_072402.htm|Hagel comments on the history]). Having India and China and several other large countries outside the [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change#Annex_I_and_Annex_II_Countries.2C_and_Developing_Countries|Annex I] group (and lack of ratification by the US) means that only about [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol|55% of global greenhouse gas emissions are covered]. It is unreasonable to expect that the Annex II countries would be willing to spend billions of dollars to help reduce emissions in their countries and in developing countries without more of a domestic political consensus.

There are very good reasons for reducing carbon emissions, and for me worries about anthrogenic climate change are low on the list. The US economy is paying a very high price for "cheap" oil and gas. Having the market price of oil and gas reflect the true cost of our military, the cost of pollution controls, the cost of lack of diverse supplies, etc., seems reasonable to me. The UK is in a different situation with its high [link|https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html#Econ|exports] of oil and natural gas, but the US is going to continue to be more dependent on imports as our domestic production continues to [link|http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/15/83857/186|drop].

[image|http://www.theoildrum.com/uploads/44/cera_figure_1.jpg|0|US Oil Production|379|519]


US taxes on oil and gas should be significantly higher to make it clear that we have the will to reduce consumption and foreign imports. Price is the least-disruptive way to change consumption. Greater efficiency should be our driver - we shouldn't waste so much. We can live better while taking fewer resources if we put our minds to it and make investments in it. We should be tackling CO2 emissions from that end, not primarily because we're worried about [link|http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,395014,00.html|thinner polar bears] and so forth.

So, color me as a worried skeptic. The climate does indeed seem to be changing, and it's reasonable that our activities are contributing to that change. How much? I don't know. IMO modern civilization is in more peril due to dwindling supplies of cheap fuel than by rising global temperatures. Objectively, political change forced by rising fuel prices are likely to be much greater and harder to control than more frequent flooding in Venice and Bangladesh and other widely cited aspects of climate change.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Anything that doesn't cut...
far east emissions as much or more than ours is a bad deal. So the Euros can bitch about us all they want...they are spineless in attacking the far east problem...and can't even meet the commitments they made themselves.

Too much of today's music is fashionable crap dressed as artistry.Adrian Belew
New Well, Gore was on Oprah yesterday.
That will spread the word some.
Alex

When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross. -- Sinclair Lewis
New twit and twat
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 50 years. meep
     Saw 'An Inconvenient Truth' last night. - (Ashton) - (22)
         The people who NEED to watch this - (lincoln) - (21)
             Another problem - (bepatient)
             Feel free to provide credible evidence for #2 - (pwhysall) - (17)
                 And the climate always has been changing -NT - (tonytib) - (2)
                     And always will. -NT - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         I hear a Dylan song playing in the backround. -NT - (bepatient)
                 Begs the real Question, no? - (Ashton) - (8)
                     ozone hole was fixed? horses doovers - (boxley)
                     Present the evidence for anthropogenic climate change. - (pwhysall) - (6)
                         Agree about the likely/traditional response. - (Ashton) - (5)
                             Don't get me started about Silent Spring - (pwhysall) - (4)
                                 Event order: 1) See.. the flic___2) Then.. critique the flic -NT - (Ashton) - (3)
                                     nope, just like a Michael Moore flick - (boxley) - (2)
                                         Gee that's just what certain Bible-thumpers say - - (Ashton) - (1)
                                             so, how did you rate my recommended flick, backatcher -NT - (boxley)
                 I'll start with this - (lincoln) - (4)
                     these are the same people that reported WMD's in Iraq right? - (boxley)
                     Anthropogenic climate change is required... - (pwhysall) - (1)
                         I understand where you're coming from, but... 27 kB img. - (Another Scott)
                     Anything that doesn't cut... - (bepatient)
             Well, Gore was on Oprah yesterday. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                 twit and twat -NT - (boxley)

Microphone check, microphone check. Can I get a check-up from the neck up?
121 ms