Post #228,129
10/5/05 11:07:50 AM
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Freedom through Martial Law
Forced medical 'care' for everyone - but no national healthcare? No national infrastructure for quick mass production of vaccines?
Wait until an 'emergency' (like the deaqth of millions of chickens) requires martial law and the supension of elections.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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Post #228,131
10/5/05 11:11:39 AM
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ObLRPD: "Although someday I'll try chewing on chicken feet."
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Post #228,141
10/5/05 12:00:58 PM
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Um, have you seen the numbers being thrown about?
[link|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535929/|http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9535929/] On Thursday, Dr. David Nabarro \ufffd the new U.N. coordinator for avian and human influenza \ufffd had warned that the \ufffdrange of deaths could be anything between 5 and 150 million\ufffd from a new pandemic. If a vaccination exists, or is created, and it can cut into that worst case 150 million... or should we wait till its too late to plan for something like this (just like always) and then blame the government then for failing to evaluate all options? If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,145
10/5/05 12:29:45 PM
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Is military intervention the only option?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,146
10/5/05 12:37:44 PM
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I doubt it. But it certainly is one of them
I don't think army in NO was the only option either...but they ended up there.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,149
10/5/05 12:44:03 PM
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Can we agree military should be the *last* option?
I agree Bush should be talking about ways to contain this threat. I just don't think the military should be the first idea he throws out.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,152
10/5/05 12:47:04 PM
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As always.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,155
10/5/05 12:53:34 PM
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No, we should begin vaccination ASAP
and spend $$$'s on Public Service Announcements.
Doctors/hospitals already have quarantine procedures for this kind of thing and the WHO has a fair amount of experience dealing with even nastier things like Ebola, Marburg, etc.
If there is to be military, they should be under direction of WHO authorities.
Which will never happen with our little napoleon in charge.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #228,157
10/5/05 1:08:27 PM
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And it may not
it may not mutate within GWB's remaining time in office.
Some have as the modern day version of the plague...and the only reason they say "only 150 million" is because they fear of being accused of "scaremongering".
If this becomes contagious by loose contact it is NOT going to be a good thing. Ebola would be a welcome change if this occurs.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,185
10/5/05 1:57:20 PM
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No. Ebola would not be a welcome change.
What has saved us so far is that Ebola shows up in villages which have a population density low enough that you can quarantine the villages and it will burn itself out because it is too virulent. (Applying basic public health in those villages helps it die out faster.)
If Ebola managed to get into our crowded Western cities, the potential is truly terrifying. It is a fast-moving, extremely contagious, untreatable, airborne disease with over a 70% kill rate.
You don't even want to joke about its potential. Particularly not if anyone you care about lives in a dense population center like NYC.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,189
10/5/05 2:04:01 PM
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Point taken.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,242
10/5/05 5:54:35 PM
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Wait-Ebola airborne? I thought we're alive because it isn't?
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Post #228,263
10/5/05 7:27:33 PM
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D'oh, you're right
[link|http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/index.html|http://www.who.int/m...103/en/index.html] confirms that.
Now I'm going to wonder what disease I'm mixing it up with. :-(
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,272
10/5/05 8:00:11 PM
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Hantavirus?
SARS?
There are plenty of nasty bugs out there that are just waiting to hitch a ride on our hands/skin.
My worry is that with the use of so many "anti-bacterial" products, we are hastening the process of adaptation. Super bugs are already posing a threat.
What a world, what a world.
Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #228,276
10/5/05 8:28:19 PM
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All we need for a pandemic
1. High transmission rate with casual contact.
2. Significant period of infectousness before onset of definitive symptoms.
3. Non-trivial rate of mortality in healthy adults.
AIDS had #2, used to have #3, but failed on #1.
Most flu strains have #1 and #2, but lack #3.
Ebola has #1 and #3, but failed on #2. It kills too quickly.
Same for Necrotizing fasciitis: symptoms appear within 24 hours.
Lyme disease was thought to have #1, but limited to rural areas, and turned out not to have #3.
West Nile Virus failed on #3.
SARS apparently had #1 and #2, but #3 wasn't nearly what people feared.
So what's most likely to hit the trifecta: a flu strain with higher mortality, or a slower-killing version of ebola or necrotizing fasciitis?
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,279
10/5/05 8:33:22 PM
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Ewwwww!
Now would be a good time to aquire OCD with the hand-washing.
Peace (V on a gloved hand)
Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #228,281
10/5/05 8:38:38 PM
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SARS had a plenty high fatality rate
About 10%. If a billion people caught it, that would be 100 million dead. Possibly more, because that's the fatality rate with good medical care. If the medical system got overwhelmed, I'd expect more people to die.
What caused SARS to fizzle is that an aggressive quarantine and contact tracing effort managed to stop it before it infected more than a few thousand people.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,282
10/5/05 8:41:43 PM
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Once the Chinese recognized it
the quarantines and quick reaction of the other affected countries were able to deal with it effectively.
It could have been much, much worse had the Chinese spent another month hiding from the issue.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,518
10/6/05 8:04:44 PM
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They probably would have if they could have, but they
couldn't after it appeared in Toronto with a clear vector back to Guangdong.
I was here; it broke in Canada long before the Chinese gov't acknowledged its existence.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #228,283
10/5/05 8:48:31 PM
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Was that total, or high-risk?
What I'm asking is: did 10% of the healthy adults who caught it die, even with treatment? I had assumed the 10% rate was for all known cases, which typically consists of higher rates among children and the elderly.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,285
10/5/05 9:04:30 PM
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That was 10% of all known cases
In terms of projecting probable fatalities from X people catching it, that's the right figure to look at.
In terms of evaluating your personal risk, it is the wrong figure.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,418
10/6/05 12:56:36 PM
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For those who are interested
I got this email today from Consumer's Union. I am quite interested since I contracted a gasto-bug while tending to hubster in the hospital. It took me nearly three days to recover from it. Also, my sister-in-law nearly died from a staph infection after her C-section four years ago.
I'm glad to see that someone is taking a serious look at hospital pathogens.
I urge everyone to sign the petition.
[link|http://cu.convio.net/site/PageServer?pagename=SHI_petitionyourhospital&s_dckid=13580094|http://cu.convio.net...&s_dckid=13580094]
Peace,
Amy
Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!
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Post #228,555
10/6/05 11:57:37 PM
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Re: For those who are interested
It was common knowledge decades ago (I thought), the risks of going into most any large metro hospital.. not only re the much higher chance of sharing air/surfaces with really Interesting maladies, but just for the fact that sterilization never reaches 100.0% (outside of movies with silos having an A-bomb at the base.)
Of course in certain emergencies - you do what you must.
But as for any surgery (and especially - elective) - this chimera hangs over everyone, but especially anyone who has been brought up in the A-septic household: antibiotic sprayed, slathered on every small scratch. All those ads on Tee Vee of the hospital-white kitchen; Mom standing over little Kevin with a treated towel - to restore that floor to autoclave-freshness suggest to me:
Maybe MDs are still giving in to "Ask Your Doctor if LiquiLobotomy is the Right medication to fix *your* mood disorder!" - as they've been alleged to yield often to the demands, "I want a shot of ___cillin Now!" (even for a bad cold)?
Dunno - rarely see either MD/hospital insides; maybe just the luck of the genes.
If people generally - today? don't understand about the built-in risk of all these Wonder Drugs\ufffd [and that they are for Emergency last resort], after so many A-B-C plain-English lectures about how mutations develop..?
Whacha gonna do? I guess this petition makes clear what you Don't do - suppress the old precautions along with the new results of having done that. Sounds as if there are Medico-MBAs completely in charge. (How's That for scary?)
Ain't capitalism fun - in both medicine Tee Vee ads and political propaganda [with music]?
..be Moderately afraid
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Post #228,594
10/7/05 8:00:08 AM
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MRSA seems to be a bigger deal in the UK than in the USA.
[link|http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/hip/Aresist/ha_mrsa.htm|Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus Aureus]: MRSA is a type of bacteria that is resistant to certain antibiotics. These antibiotics include methicillin and other more common antibiotics such as oxacillin, penicillin and amoxicillin. Staph infections, including MRSA, occur most frequently among persons in hospitals and health care facilities (such as nursing homes and dialysis centers) who have weakened immune systems. My father in law became [link|http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/955139831.html|colonized] with MRSA very shortly after receiving a tracheostomy at a local hospital. Does everyone who is exposed to MRSA become infected?
No. Some individuals who are exposed to MRSA become "colonized" which means that the bacteria are present, growing and multiply without observable signs of disease. MRSA colonization occurs on the skin surface, in the nasal passage, in the sputum or in the urine. Other individuals who are exposed to MRSA never become colonized. MRSA colonization may precede or lead to infection in persons with weakened immune systems. However, persons who get MRSA infections are usually already very ill from other medical conditions. Apparently, it's quite common for even healthy people to be colonized with MRSA. The problem is, if an elderly person becomes colonized with it, then very few nursing homes will accept them as a patient - even for temporary rehabilitation stays. And those that will accept a patient with MRSA often are the ones that provide the lowest quality care. :-( Combating MRSA (aka the "superbug") seems to get much more press in the UK than in the USA. It's been a [link|http://society.guardian.co.uk/mrsa/story/0,15825,1548847,00.html|political issue there] as well. From what I saw in my frequent visits to see my FIL at the hospital, I think infections like MRSA will be with us for a long time. Too many of the staff are too cavalier about cleanliness procedures - e.g. I don't think that the equipment or oxygen/vacuum valves on the walls was ever cleaned even though they pick up stuff from contaminated gloves... They go through the motions of requiring visitors to wear gowns and gloves, but then don't think about how they can transfer infectious agents themselves. Just as a single person can cause a huge traffic backup, it only takes one person who isn't careful to spread infection through a hospital (or several, if it's a physician making rounds). And there's the cleaning, laundry, food delivery staff to consider too... We probably need hospitals with voice-activated equipment so that pathogens cannot easily be transferred by contact. But I don't think we'll have antigravity beds and magical fabrics and other materials that eliminate patient contact any time soon. :-( (There's a huge need for things like this, but it would bankrupt the country before the benefits began to pay off.) My feeling is that one should always avoid hospitals whenever possible. People who say that one goes to a hospital to die are unfortunately too often right. :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #228,658
10/7/05 5:23:20 PM
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Thou sayest: bottom line, indeed :-/
I'll go in for the occasional blood-test for whatever. I watch the seal being broken on the needle/syringe AND the donning of a new pair of gloves The 'Right' Way, etc.
As the guy who fell out of the CIEIO's office on the 66th floor said,
while passing the 33rd -
I'm doing fine.. so far.
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Post #228,183
10/5/05 1:48:39 PM
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Public health is trickier than that
First of all, if it mutates, a vaccine is unlikely to be available until after it has opportunity to spread widely. Therefore vaccination cannot be your desired first response.
Secondly diseases that have the potential to go panendemic are either big or small. There is no in between. If the public health system controls it, only a few thousand catch it. If the public health system collapses, millions do. For instance SARS could have killed hundreds of millions. But public health worked in that case.
Thirdly the big issue that public health has to think carefully about is handling the current crisis versus handling future ones. Massive publicity will make a crisis more manageable. But if the public health response works, people aren't really aware of the bullet dodged. So the publicity starts looking like a case of crying wolf. That's why public health people don't shout about every crisis from the rooftops - they want to save that bullet for a crisis where public health's less drastic approaches have clearly failed.
Of course all of this is beyond curious George, and I doubt that he has appointed people with appropriate expertise to manage the situation if a crisis hits. :-(
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,215
10/5/05 4:20:09 PM
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Can't vaccinate against a bug that doesn't exist.
On NPR this week, they were talking about the possibility of the Avian Flu coming across to humans - 8 months to create a vaccine from scratch, in the proper quantities.
When somebody asks you to trade your security for freedom, it isn't your freedom they're talking about.
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Post #228,184
10/5/05 1:54:37 PM
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Uh huh.
And of course I believe in this latest-greatest-imminent-WMD-like threat from a disease that has killed 60 people over the course of years.
I'm supposed to believe that THIS government is worried about possible evolution of a disease?
Where's the fear about petroleum-cleanup bacteria? Suppose THAT 'crossed over' and started eating plastic?
Suppose HIV mutated to be contagious by coughing? It's certainly POSSIBLE - where are the plans for that?
What about WEATHER/GLOBAL-WARMING threats?
Get this: I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT THE POWER-HUNGRY, TRAITOROUS BASTARDS IN POWER SAY ANY MORE. ESPECIALLY IF IT RESULTS IN MORE POWER BEING ACRUED TO THEM. If you do, Bill, I'll say it now, and out loud: You are a fool. This is an excuse to grab more power, nothing less. This is NOT about diligence regarding a real threat, this is about trying to use FEAR to justify the dissolution of constitutional protections, IMO.
Again.
It's not the first time the Neocons have done this, it won't be the last, and if you think I think this government would do this for the sake of the 'customer', pull the other leg, it's got bells on.
TELL ME WHY DEMOCRACY IS MUTALLY EXCLUSIVE TO QUICK/NECESSARY ACTION, AS OPPOSED TO A HUGE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY, BILL. THIS IS ABOUT DECLARING OPEN-ENDED MARTIAL LAW.
My advice to everybody here: Buy guns. Buy ammo. Get yourself good camping gear, water filtration gear, medicines, and flints. When the rednecks wake up and realize just how long and hard they've been fucked, the results are NOT going to be pretty.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #228,187
10/5/05 1:59:06 PM
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For the record
I believe in the potential of the disease.
I don't believe that the suggested response would be helpful.
I don't believe that their motives are what they say they are.
Sincerely,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,188
10/5/05 2:02:39 PM
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Take a pill, dude
Its not this neo-con junta saying these things about this disease. They are being asked to respond because the people who know about this shit are saying hundreds of millions could die.
I don't have any illusions about this group trying to take more power. And while you continue to harp that this makes me somehow foolish...you would think to know better than that. I don't trust this administration any more than any other, nor any less. The Federal is an innefficient beast hell bent on grabbing as much power as it can...and I don't trust it to do the right thing ever.
Of course...to some this means i support big business over government, to others here it equates to a defense of this admin because I'm quick to point out its no different than any other.
For you now it appears you assume me blind.
To each their own.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,193
10/5/05 2:18:20 PM
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they said the same thing about aids where is that quarantine
this shit hits, wear a mask and stay home for 14 days, if you or yourn get it treat the fever as any other flu and bury the ones that dont make it. Having some 19yo gomer with an m16 hawking and spitting in my living room isnt gonna make me any safer.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #228,194
10/5/05 2:21:41 PM
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There's your mistake
unless, of course, you are saying that you have absolute zero faith in federal government.
>I don't trust this administration any more than any other, nor any less.
This administration is unique in US History and deserves special suspicion.
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #228,228
10/5/05 5:03:39 PM
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I am saying I have zero faith
It is a necessary evil.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,198
10/5/05 2:44:07 PM
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No.
They are being asked to respond because the people who know about this shit are saying hundreds of millions could die. Where is their response to anything else 'people who know' have warned them about? AIDS, GW, pollution, crime? No, they pick thier 'responses' very carefully; they only 'care' when it fits thier very UN-American agenda. The only responses they make are tailored to acrue those in power more power, those with wealth, more wealth, and FUCK everybody else. And while you continue to harp that this makes me somehow foolish...you would think to know better than that. I don't trust this administration any more than any other, nor any less. The Federal is an innefficient beast hell bent on grabbing as much power as it can...and I don't trust it to do the right thing ever. Bill, you are often being contrarian, and I understand that - but I can't STAND when you try to paint anything about this junta as beneficent, or comparable to previous admins insofar as corruption or behavior. They AREN'T. Nixon and his admin were straight-shooting wonders of benison compared to this crew. Of course...to some this means i support big business over government, to others here it equates to a defense of this admin because I'm quick to point out its no different than any other. As I said, the neocon junta is more corrupt than any I have ever encountered. They also seem to assault the Constitution with almost every act they pass. I have never said that about any other administration; the previous worst was Reagan, and that was simply panning his disastrous 'Reaganomic policies'. Reagan did NOT attempt to dismantle the Republic at every turn; Bush II and his cronies DO. THIS little gem of a speech is no different. If it's hypothetical, why was it subject a nationwide addess? Simple: Bush was running it up the flagpole to see if anyone would salute. His numbers, and the numbers of the other Neocons are down, they need terror and military action to conteract that. For you now it appears you assume me blind. No, I think you have your eyes shut. I think you actually have trouble believing that these guys could be as self-serving and evil (yes, EVIL) as they are. I understand that, as well. Nobody wants to believe that their leaders can be the stuff of nightmares, Bill. The Germans of the Weimar Republic sure didn't. Neither did the Russians of the revolution. We ignore the words and deeds of the Neocons at our own (and the entire world's) peril. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #228,230
10/5/05 5:06:04 PM
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Well then dood (avatar)
be happy we have only 2 more years of this crap.
He's busy destroying any chnage that the regime has at re-election...let him go.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,328
10/5/05 11:08:20 PM
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Provided there IS an election.
I have no faith in that. I truly believe they will jump at a chance to disrupt the process to their own advantage.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #228,358
10/6/05 8:04:34 AM
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Then you have gone over the edge.
But we all have our opinions ;-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,368
10/6/05 8:46:20 AM
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After all, "It Can't Happen Here"
Bullshit. The Neocons already tried to fly the 'delay elections' spiel as a response to their own manufactured 'threat levels'.
I say again: ignore these bastards at the nation's (and the world's) peril.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #228,416
10/6/05 12:49:34 PM
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And their "thoughts" were rejected outright
when they even breathed mention of it before.
There are no beer halls inside the beltway. While you have adequate incentive to distrust these blowhards, you are seriously over-estimating their support base and their ability to destroy the foundations of the government.
Again, this is all opinion. And you certainly have the 1930s example to fall back on...but what is present now that was not then is the information machine. IMO, that makes a HUGE difference in the capability of this administration to overthrow the establishments of the government and seize authoritarian power.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,422
10/6/05 1:31:06 PM
10/6/05 1:33:14 PM
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Bill -
This administration has been the most poisonous thing to ever try and kill off the Constitution.
They are already seizing authoritarian power.
They have suspended 'due process' at the will of the executive branch.
They've already made noises about 'delaying' elections. Due to thier own 'threat level' warnings. Justified how? We'll NEVER know - after all, this is the most secretive administration in HISTORY. Now they are talking about quarantines enforced by the military. Essentially martial law - for a medical threat that is unrealized. Note that they aren't talking about major boosts to general medical infrastructure - just controlling the citizenry with troops. After all, military force is the answer to all problems.
They are making ready to limit internet communication regarding politics.
This administration has called anyone that disagrees with them treasonous, while commiting treason for political reason is justified at the highest levels. Tell me what moral restraint this government is going to have that will prevent it from just keeping the powers it has seized. Hmm. Maybe they will just lie about the reasons for doing so - nah, the Neocons would NEVER lie about something as serious as war or emergency powers, would they?
No, things are different now, I guess it really can't happen here.
Riiiight.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
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Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
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[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||60]]
Edited by imric
Oct. 6, 2005, 01:33:14 PM EDT
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Post #228,424
10/6/05 1:37:35 PM
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You have a right to your paranoia
But you are talking about things made mention in some circles as possibilities as if they are decided fact.
They have not limited internet speech re: politics. They have not passed any required rules to establish martial law anywhere.
Due process suspension for "enemy combatants" is being picked apart by the courts. Good try GWB, but within a couple of years that issue will be done.
So, you can rail me all you like for not sharing in your paranoia. It may or may not be justified.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,426
10/6/05 1:49:34 PM
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Did I say it was a done deal?
I am pointing down the road that we ARE headed down. I am listening to things that our rulers ARE saying.
If I thought this was done, I would have disappeared. It is only the fact that they aren't finished yet that I am opening up my mouth.
The fact that the noose is not yet tight doesn't mean that the Republic isn't being marched up the gallows stairs, though.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,460
10/6/05 3:52:07 PM
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If we wait for them to do it - it's too late.
The time to scream about this stuff is now.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #228,530
10/6/05 9:19:06 PM
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When does paranoia become ... 'prescience', in such matters?
Assessing any extrapolation, prediction of large consequence - always raises this emotional, thus inseparable-component of every huge choice - such as reforms one's subsequent attitude.
Take the semi-jocular bet amongst physicists re Alamogordo:
Will the energy release ignite atmospheric Nitrogen..? or not?
(There were - some decent formulas from which to assign a few probabilities: the threat was eventually deemed 'virtually nil' - I think Teller was one of the re-calculators, but it's been a while..)
Well -??- just How 'virtually'-nil ??
before a 'small-chance' of such a horror trumps an
itching desire to Find Out if something works?
Surely there are political parallels as, say? a trend towards the cancelling-out the local rule of law? Of increased keeping of dossiers via new techno, of evident and unprecedented secrecy = even from Day1 ... ...
disdain for .. (say, just: for many things which folks do Not disdain?)
At what stage does the assigned label Change?
Because if St Imric's Day should ever come to be celebrated
(alongside St. Leibowitz's?) `~~ we. missed. the. 'staging'.
Quickie Litmus for any US citizen?
A) A kiloton or so goes off in LA.
(Assume merely a perfect paperless trail sans cel-fones and bills of lading)
B) Whom and How Soon - do you *think, right now* shall be Nuked next by US?
C) Do you believe that the US/ under this cabal Would refrain from a next Instant Gratification?
D) Long... Enough...?
Not-to [fill in stages - - - > towards spasm exchanges; nuke + ALL 'misc.']
Gotta Love this species. Or something.
It'll debate the meticulous means for its seppuku -
Do a linear regression analysis vs "My Image IF.."
- and then try it out.
Final partial-thoughts of man#(n-1): I... Was... RIGH - - - -
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Post #228,531
10/6/05 9:24:05 PM
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C'mon
Why not put it under the Gate.
LA is so...cliche.
And who would you suggest that we would nuke in retaliation? How about the Germans. Its always their fault, right?
At least with you, I don't expect a reality play.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,533
10/6/05 9:29:40 PM
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Never happen in LA
All the likely players who'd want to do it would end up killing thousands of their own people.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,534
10/6/05 9:31:41 PM
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And previously, this has stopped them when?
I don't think they care.
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Post #228,535
10/6/05 9:43:45 PM
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Signs, signs, everywhere signs
Except in my previous post, where I didn't think it was needed.
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,537
10/6/05 9:55:31 PM
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Sorry, my bad.
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Post #228,549
10/6/05 11:08:44 PM
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St. Imric's Day? God forbid on so MANY levels...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,556
10/7/05 12:01:03 AM
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Ever read 'A Canticle for Leibowitz'? :-\ufffd
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Post #228,563
10/7/05 12:23:19 AM
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Of course, man!
But... St. Imric's Day? So wrong. So... Wrong.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,576
10/7/05 3:07:24 AM
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Well, your Ascension would come at Great Cost!
A) You were right.
B) Everyone believed, It Can't Happen Here (cha cha cha)
and, sadly
.
.
.
.
C) Ya only gets the title, quite posthumously, when the mutants are sorting through the rubble and come upon your annotated PDP-8 Pocket Reference Card with '7402' underlined in red (with the nekkid snap of Britney on the back) and the Post-It saying,
"Pick up bread, halvah and some crystal meth at Guido's."
{sniff}
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Post #228,589
10/7/05 6:57:32 AM
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Nonsense!
It would be an RPG Template!
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,619
10/7/05 11:47:33 AM
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a relic!
1 case 420
2 cans cat food
sword parts
pick up beep
I shall rush it to the monastary immediately for the bishop's perusal
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #228,630
10/7/05 12:53:20 PM
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*grin*
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,633
10/7/05 1:33:09 PM
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dear me...a QUEST!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,635
10/7/05 1:39:29 PM
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..."you wake up,"...
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
[link|http://www.mepis.com|[image|http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/mepislovers/downloads/mepis-buttons/getmepis_computer-1.png||||]]
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Post #228,642
10/7/05 3:21:57 PM
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As with the petunias
Oh, no, not again.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,705
10/8/05 2:00:09 PM
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Wonder if Ground wants to be friends with me? Hello, Ground!
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Post #228,449
10/6/05 3:22:06 PM
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OK, I have to refute this one statement
>There are no beer halls inside the beltway.
[link|http://www.webtrek.com/~dcbeer/brewpubs.html|http://www.webtrek.c...eer/brewpubs.html]
"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein
"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
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Post #228,462
10/6/05 3:53:52 PM
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There's also the Brickskeller
Not a brew pub, but they have 500 beers on tap.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #228,475
10/6/05 4:28:15 PM
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From someone who I'm sure was there
and if not, you missed it...[link|http://www.oktobearfest.com/images/Germany/OktoBEARfest%202004/5%20Bicycling%20and%20Hofbrauhaus/Beer%20Hall.jpg|there aren't any of these.]
Brewpubs are nothing by comparison.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,484
10/6/05 4:41:25 PM
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Yup, and in the olden days . . .
. . they were built with a slope and ditches running down under the tables so you didn't have to stop your beer drinking for any reason.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #228,363
10/6/05 8:28:20 AM
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Too many other Republicans want the job. ;-)
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Post #228,364
10/6/05 8:31:07 AM
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They might all be in jail
if you listen to all the talk.
Course, even if that >is< the case, its not a given that the Democrats can bring forward an electable candidate.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #228,367
10/6/05 8:40:39 AM
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Sure they can. (new thread)
Created as new thread #228366 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=228366|Sure they can.]
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Post #228,401
10/6/05 11:46:56 AM
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Oh, I think there is something to this myself.
I think there will be an Election. But, the thing is, right now there is a 10 year limit on being pResident.
Remember the ammendment that was put into place after FDR, to keep from a repeat of that.
Well, I believe there will be at the least a draft of a Bill to repeal that, at most, it'll get passed.
There would be nothing standing in the way of Shrub "winning" again. And by "winning", I don't mean winning.
Could this be the blue thinger Nostradamus had visions of? Blue has been a term for grey haired people, does GWB have Blue Hair? Yes.
You could stretch that all of GWB's power has risen from the event that is called: "War on Terrorism" nee "War on the Near/Middle East" nee "War on Islam". This could then be lept with to giving rise to the Blue Man from the Middle east type thingy.
I could be speaking out of my /dev/a$$.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheySELECT * FROM scog WHERE ethics > 0;\n\n0 rows returned.
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Post #228,492
10/6/05 5:26:01 PM
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It has to be a constitutional amendment
Not easily doable. Particularly not in the time we have left.
Suspension of civil law would be easier.
Personally I suspect that George is willing to step down for Jeb.
Cheers,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
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Post #228,494
10/6/05 5:39:18 PM
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Thing about Jeb (new thread)
Created as new thread #228493 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=228493|Thing about Jeb]
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
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Post #228,289
10/5/05 9:27:13 PM
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Well.. fwiw
I don't think you exaggerate the potential of the Neo-fascists by-way-of puerile Trotsky readings.. nor their willingness to pursue any Rove-coached ploy towards creating a Permanent One-party (PRI-model) Authoritarian State. That would be modeled: ~5% rich-->RICH as Managers and the rest - suppliers (but not 'consumers') of fine cuisine, services and the sweat for the building of larger mansions / Pyramids. And with lots of Uniforms about (with some sort of red-white-blue Ziggurat? as neo-Swastika - for the lapels of the Elite Corps of Enforcers.)
None of us has other than 'theoretical' insight into the Zealot-mindset: we've mostly only read about those, AFTERwards. Living-amidst -almost a cliche?- -- seems always to feel like NEW -- even to those who read some books, once.
Even, (no pun intended) It Can't Happen Here!
It is our curse to be easily distracted by cheap trinkets (now exponentially-expanded 'lectronic ones': the Final Ones?) and to be perpetually amused to utter Distraction by: which mercenary/portable Team of Millionaires beat Which, today.
Had I children AND the socially-expected attitude towards preservation-of My-Dynasty -?- I suppose I'd be stocking up on those lists in the classic Survival stories, which most here have read. (But I think my personal views on dynasty, disassembly and 'dying + its method' are not very conventional ones - and it doesn't matter, what these are.)
Luck to all - because I don't think this soft, *self-indulgent 'nation' comprised largely of history-illiterate, non-citizen mass-consumers who worship fantasy - will rise to Any occasion. Only whine as the zip-lok handcuffs (for your safety and protection) go onto a few friends or distant? relatives.
* Was Ross so far off re.. Nation of Narcissists?
We aren't There, of course.. but one adds "by a longshot.." only if one is a Disneyland Season Pass holder.
(It-all seems quite apt.. to prove Fatal)
But I refuse to find 'it' Worrisome.
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