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New Some browser benchmarks
Now that there are a number of competent browsers available for Linux, I decided to run the ones I have through a simple test. My main reason for doing this is was a feeling of disconnect between what I was reading about Mozilla (including on Iwethey), and the experience I was having with it at work and at home.

The files used to test are the HTML version of the table of contents and the manual to MySQL 3.23.41. The TOC is 83 KB long, the manual itself is 2.3 MB. Both files are plain HTML, contain only token imagery, and have no scripts or other such garbage. The TOC is mostly links, the manual is a mix of text and tables.

The test: load the TOC and measure the time it takes to render. Navigate down to the bottom, and follow the link to the index of the manual. Measure the time it takes to reach and render the top of the index.

Test equipment: Compaq Presario 5831 (500 MHz Athlon) with 320 MB PC100 RAM. Mandrake 8.1 (linux 2.4.8 compiled for Athlon, KDE 2.2.1). With the exception of Mozilla 0.9.5 and the Opera browsers, all browsers came from the Mandrake i586 packages. Unknown what Mozilla 0.9.5 was optimized for. The Operas were the free i386 rpms.

Results:


Browser\t TOC Manual Mem
Links 0.96 <1s 4.5s 17 MB
Lynx 2.8.5 1.5s 31s 7.5 MB
Mozilla 0.9.5 4.1s 143s 48 MB
Mozilla 0.9.6 3.5s 96s 48 MB
Galeon 1.0.1 1.5s 95s 46 MB
Netscape 4.78 1.5s 10s 29 MB
Konqueror 2.2.1 2.0s 81s 50 MB
Opera 5.0 1.5s 98.5s 29 MB
Opera 6.0 demo 1.5s 16.5s 34 MB


These figures show that I wasn't imagining things when it came to the rendering speed of Mozilla. Looks like some miracles were performed on Gecko between 0.9.5 and 0.9.6, but it is still has some ways to go, especially given the performance of M$IE :( And an interesting factoid: Lynx, Netscape and Opera show how fast they are processing the file. Lynx and Opera bog down as they proceed through it, Netscape's processing speed increases as it goes along.

They also put a crimp on the lightweight claims of Galeon. The Galeon package may be small, but that excludes the required "extras" of Gnome and Mozilla itself. As its performance is identical to Mozilla, and you need Mozilla anyway, why not just run Mozilla?

After this, I also ran four of the browsers under Gnome 1.4, just to see what difference the desktop environment would make. My expectations were to see some improvement in Galeon's figures as it was now running in its native environment. Surprisingly, Galeon's performance went downhill. Given Mozilla's almost identical increase in times, it looks like the Gecko engine doesn't like Gnome.


Browser\t TOC Manual Mem
Mozilla 0.9.6 3.5s 101s 48 MB
Galeon 1.0.1 3.5s 101s 46 MB
Netscape 4.78 1.5s 10s 29 MB
Opera 6.0 demo 1.5s 16.5s 35 MB


And, to cap things off, I ran the two files through the two browsers I have under Microsuck Windows 98SE on the same PC. Ouch... :


Browser\t TOC Manual Mem
Netscape 4.61 2.2s 10s 32 MB
IE 5.0 1.5s 6.5s 35 MB


All this being said, Mozilla has been my browser of choice for general purpose web surfing for about 6 months now because of the vastly improved stability over Netscape. But if the Opera 6 technology demo is anything to go by, it may get some serious competition. And this was the first time I used Links. Looks like lynx just got dethroned as my way to get around the MySQL manual :)
Always check best before date before consuming Windows.
Never consume Windows from a package if the seal has been broken.
New Interesting. Thanks for posting the results!
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Re: Some browser benchmarks
In defence of Mozilla/Gecko.

It's not even at version 1 yet, it is BETA code. (It's also the most standards compliant renderer by some margin, especially in the fields of exotic DOM and CSS2 support).

I'll have a bash on this here PC and see what falls out.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Mozilla 0.9.6
Kernel 2.4.16, PIII 800, 256MB memory.

I didn't have the TOC file, but the manual.html file loaded in 20 seconds.



Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Did you compile that ?
I hate to think a PIII 800 is 5x faster than an Athlon 500, even if it sits on a 100 MHz FSB board. I grabbed the 0.9.6 source to see what difference it would make with an i686 compilation. Unfortunately, the default compile produces a binary that takes 440 s to render the manual and gobbles up 70-80 MB in the process, presumably because it is loaded with debug options and uses no optimization.

I'm now recompiling with all the debug options turned off and optimization set to -O2. See what that gives...
New Re: Did you compile that ?
Nope, grabbed the binary RPMs.

I *have* got the manual TOC file - couldn't see the wood for the trees, or something. manual_toc.html popped open in 1.06 seconds.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
Expand Edited by pwhysall Dec. 16, 2001, 05:51:48 PM EST
New Re: Did you compile that ?
There is a reason 2.4.16 is sooo much faster....

I think the recent branching of the Kernel-Devel show that even Linus feels 2.4.x is at the point where it is at a maintenance level. The change in Memory Management, VM, OOM... many other enhancements to boot.

I saw a huge (subjective on my part) change in performance, just by going to 2.4.12 from 2.4.3. And in going from 2.4.7 to 2.4.14. AND going from 2.4.9 to 2.4.16.

I see alot of stability things got better the later the kernel.


greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
New La(s)t(est) result
With -O2 and all debugging turned off: 41 s for the manual. Much, much better :) Kernel 2.4.16 vs 2.4.8 does not affect the result.
New Re: La(s)t(est) result
As I said about the speed improvement... they were subjective on my part. But really I guess it only comes into effect when there is a memory poor machine...


greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
New Galeon, size, why bother
I'm pretty much in agreement with you regards Galeon's claim for being lightweight. It's not particularly. However, the memory management for both Galeon and Mozilla are improving, which means that you're somewhat less prone to large memory leaks than you may have been under either earlier versions of the same browsers, or Netscape 4.x.

As to the "why bother with Galeon" argument, you might as well ask what the difference between a VW and a Porche is -- they're the same engine and manufacturer. The distinction is in intent and interfaces. Galeon is just a web browser. Personally, I prefer this orientation. It's possible to get a stripped Mozilla, but it seems rather more difficult. I REALLY DON'T LIKE programs which assume they know what I want, and provide their interpretation of my desires...with little opportunity for me to specify what it is I really mean. Give me my mail, news, and other preferences. Cut the crap of opening arbitrary content in some odd app. Mozilla is getting to resembe emacs in that any arbitrary keystroke is likely to activate some feature.

The overall appearance of Mozilla strikes me as busy. Nav bar, side bar, other crud. Just give me a really big browsing window and get the fuck out of my way. Galeon provides this by default, Mozilla needs futzing to get there.

Other features are starting to work their way into Mozilla. Tabbed browsing is one, there are others. My general point though is that Galeon shoots for usability first, and does a good job of delivering it.

Above and beyond this -- waiting an extra second or so for a page to load falls below my detection threshold, particularly on 56k dialup.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
Expand Edited by kmself Dec. 19, 2001, 10:07:21 PM EST
New Eh?
You complain about futzing with a few checkboxes in Mozilla yet use the most futzy mail client in the known universe? What do ya want?

:-)


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Moz options
I'm not fully current on mozilla. In days past I found it was impossible to specify a mail client outside that specified by Mozilla. Tools such as muttzilla were created to answer this need (but never worked satisfactorially in my experience). The build of Mozilla I'm looking at still has more all-in-one aspects than I care for.

Mutt is transparent to this degree: it has human-readable config files, with human-readable values (unlike, say, Evolution). Options are documented. Copiously. And, I'm not aware of any functions performed outside mutt core that aren't configurable.

If you've got anything remotely resembling a point, try for a bit more relevance, Pete. We're not all snarf'n'barf, point'n'drool WIMPs like you.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New The point being...
...that on the one hand you complain that you can't get Mozilla to do what you want (turn off the chaff - which can be done from the preferences dialogue), and on the other keep telling me I should be using Mutt.

Either you want usability at the expense of power (hell, nothing stops you editing the XUL files to make Mozilla look *exactly* like what you want) or you don't.

prefs.js is in JavaScript, is human-readable and furthermore, Mozilla is extensible - witness muttzilla. I'm not seeing your point here. If you want a barebones browser, use Galeon (which comes configured to use Mutt as its mail client). If you're really that bothered about Evul Bloatware, use w3m.

My system Muttrc is 81211 bytes long, has things like "macro index \\eb '/~b ' 'search in message bodies'" in it, and seemingly can't be configured from inside Mutt.

Case in point -- I wanted to quickly set Mutt up to look at three sources of mail : my ISP-provided POP3 mailbox, my IMAP connection to my email at work, and the local mail spool - all this so that I could easily check my mail over an SSH connection. At least I won't have the pain of discovering that Mutt can't send mail directly to an SMTP server, as I have a running exim here.

Apparently I'm supposed to grep an 80k config file to figure this stuff out, or else copy someone else's and twiddle it until it fits my needs.

And we're in WHAT year?

The brutal point is that the Mozilla browser is of necessity trying to be all things to all people -- it's the showcase application of the Mozilla development platform and therefore it HAS to encompass all this good stuff. As noted before, Galeon, K-Meleon and whatever the KDE Gecko thing is called are there if you don't want it.


Peter
Shill For Hire
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
New Re: ...the sharp bit at the end
There's configurability and there's sane defaults. Mozilla doesn't provide sane defaults. I've said it's getting better about the various preferences and configuration settings, but it's chasing taillights in this regard, not leading the pack. The all-in-one design is certianly breakage from Netscape's proprietary past (I've got an unwritten essay on why the office suite is dead).

The user-orientation of Galeon simply blows Mozilla away. Mozilla keeps getting in your way -- open a link in a tab, you're transported to that tab (Galeon opens it behind the current window, if you're browsing links in a page, you're welcome to continue doing so). You want to jump to a new tab? Preferences => User Interface => Tabs => Jump to new tabs automatically. That's Galeon. Equivalent Mozilla control? Oh, it's the "load links in background" checkbox. Not the world's greatest description. Read it three times (in two seperate sessions) before I was inclined to try it out.

Mutt is a one-trick pony, er, dog. It's a mail client. It has some rudimentary support for various connection methods, but you'll typically use another tool to do same -- an MUA for retrieval (eg: fetchmail), and an MTA for sending (eg: exim).

I don't use IMAP (I may, I'd like to try out a few mailers, and seperating content from interface will streamline the process). IMAP support is admittedly one of the weaknesses of mutt, and multi-user support (you have different "personalities" for different mailboxes) a frequently aired complaint. Not sure if there is a good solution or not, or if that's what you're looking for.

Otherwise, your basic solution is: local mail spool is checked by default (or better: procmailed to your mailbox under $HOME), likewise your POPD account is fetched via fetchmail. IMAP support should, if I'm reading things right, be pointed at by "imap://hostname/mailbox" as a mailbox specification. There are folder hooks which can set various configurations. Yes, getting a .muttrc from someone probably wouldn't hurt. I'd be inclined to think, however, that authenticated user access to multiple systems is inherently more complex than the simple task of browsing web pages.

There's a reason, though, to the single-use, solid-design, human-readable configuration, philosophy of Unix. It keeps shit simple. Programmers can get their heads around the problem. You decide you don't like mutt, drop elm, pine (ugh!), Sylpheed, Netscape Mail, mailx, mh, or Aileron in its place. You don't have to jigger with the other components of your mail configuration -- exim, procmail, and fetchmail don't give a shit. Try that with MS Outlook (locked into Exchange) or Evolution (I don't know what's going to break, but suspect something will). Design problems of Mozilla (how does a user add themes or plugins again -- oh yeah, you gotta be root) are among the reasons its packaging for Debian is gimpy -- the architectures just plain fucked up.

My point earlier in this thread: Galeon gives me what I need, easily and stays the fuck out of my face

Mozilla's flying in the face of this at its own peril. There is, BTW, no reason why a suite of products couldn't provide the same functionality as an integrated browser / mailer / newsreader / editor. OpenOffice has fucked up in the same way by providing an integrated executable, and is desperately trying to undo the damage (my assessment: they won't succeed in doing so, for at least the next three to four years). Your "brutal point" fell out of a horse's ass.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Now now
Do we have to separate you two? :-)

Wade.

"All around me are nothing but fakes
Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"

New Sure, send Karsten to Samoa or Peter to Afghanistan. :)
That's without looking at the globe.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New A lot of baggage for a clean interface...
This goes beyond the difference between a Porsche and a VW. Here, you need the VW in order to ride the Porsche (assuming here Galeon is your Porsche ;-) And if KDE is your choice of desktop, then you need the other elephant as well... it's a bit of a steep price to sidestep one-time futzing to get a clean interface.

As it is, Mandrake's build of Mozilla 0.9.6 is as clean as Galeon. It doesn't have the Mail & News app, the sidebar is gone, and the taskbar is actually a little cleaner because the search engine boxes aren't there. And no strange things happen when arbitry keys are struck.

And both are a *lot* cleaner than Opera (even without the ad box, the pay versions would be overloaded)

Galeon can actually do some strange things as well in its default configuration: type in an incorrect URL, and it immediately bounces to Google to lend you a hand. Lots of fun if you have one of those fscking M$ ISA servers in front of the firewall with everything but NTLM authentication turned off, and an intranet that runs off a zillion servers without index pages. Grrr!!!

New Ahhh all better
Thx fer fixin yur tt tag.


greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!
In 2002, everyone will discover that everyone else is using linux. ** Linux: Good, fast AND cheap. ** Failure is not an option: It comes bundled with Windows. ** "Two rules to success in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know." - Sassan Tat
Expand Edited by gfolkertold Dec. 20, 2001, 09:30:35 AM EST
New Online refs?
I am not finding the docs you describe in the form described. You got URLs for these puppies?
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Hopefully here...
[link|http://www.mysql.com/Downloads/Manual/manual.tar.gz|MySQL.com]

I haven't downloaded the tarball to test, but it should be the one: HTML format, everyhting in a single page.
     Some browser benchmarks - (scoenye) - (19)
         Interesting. Thanks for posting the results! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         Re: Some browser benchmarks - (pwhysall)
         Mozilla 0.9.6 - (pwhysall) - (5)
             Did you compile that ? - (scoenye) - (4)
                 Re: Did you compile that ? - (pwhysall)
                 Re: Did you compile that ? - (folkert)
                 La(s)t(est) result - (scoenye) - (1)
                     Re: La(s)t(est) result - (folkert)
         Galeon, size, why bother - (kmself) - (8)
             Eh? - (pwhysall) - (5)
                 Moz options - (kmself) - (4)
                     The point being... - (pwhysall) - (3)
                         Re: ...the sharp bit at the end - (kmself) - (2)
                             Now now - (static) - (1)
                                 Sure, send Karsten to Samoa or Peter to Afghanistan. :) - (a6l6e6x)
             A lot of baggage for a clean interface... - (scoenye)
             Ahhh all better - (folkert)
         Online refs? - (kmself) - (1)
             Hopefully here... - (scoenye)

When things get creepy... blame it on the Boogie!
197 ms