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New Perhaps this will interest a few
Facts? Fiction? You be the judge...

[link|http://www.zmag.org/herold.htm|"A Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States' Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan: A Comprehensive Accounting"]
New scratching gnads and wondering
"Action should be based upon some measure of proportionality,
which here clearly is not the case. "

Porportioned to what. The afghans have killed 400 times the US caused civvy deaths by dispatching each other with glee since the ruskies left. Do we need to kill more to keep up? or disporportionate to our deaths? What is the average wage/worth of an afghani 300 a year? So in straight econ terms 1 firefighter at 40k is worth how many afghanis? Oh all life is equal? Let the afghanis sue the airfarce for misses in American Courts, why not we sue the Cubans all the time over the same shit. American Juries are a crapshoot. Get a lawyer on contingency. Lesse we killed the same amount of Afghanis as China executed to sell organ transplants last year, we should be able to harvest organs too, call Wall Street. Lets see what else,,,,,

"This report sets the record straight: we shall document how Afghanistan has been subjected to a barbarous air bombardment which has killed an average of 62 civilians per day since that fateful evening of Sunday, October 7th. When the sun set on
December 6thd, at least 3'767 Afghan civilians had died in U.S bombing attacks
[roughly equivalent to about 38'000 U.S civilian or the equivalent of eleven World
Trade Center attacks]. We present the voices of Afghan refugees speaking about the
US bombings in Appendix 1, which present qualitative corroboration of our figures."

Oh the guardian paper reports 1 afghani is worth 3k americans. his is the country that refers to all folks not white or whites not born on the auld sod WOGS. Pretty classy of the racist bastards.

Fact: the airfarce cant hit their ass with two handfulls of sand and we proved that in Desert Storm. The Mullahs get CNN and would know this so they agreed to these civvy deaths by their refusal to hand over Bin Laden. All civvy deaths are attribuable to the Taliban Only. It is a known fact we kill civvies when bombing, they accepted that.
Nuff Said,
thanx,
bill


tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New 62 civilians a day?
If that were the actual toll, I'd say: so be it. It is war. Shit happens.

On the other hand, I have to say: 62 civilians a day?

My ass.

We have not bombed 3700 Afghan civilians out of existance, on contrary, we have been freaking careful to avoid trying to kill civilians. We've made mistakes. We have bombed wrong places. But this "67 a day" is pure bullshit.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New 62/day is not a big number.
More than 3 times as many Americans have been killed in automobiles since 9/11 as died in terrorist attacks on that day. In a good year, 100 Americans/day are killed in cars on US highways alone. In some years, that number has surpassed 200/day.

In fact, in the 20th century, more Americans were killed in automobiles in the US than in all of the wars, terrorist attacks and airline crashes combined.

God forbid that we ever find an enemy, terrorist or nation state, who is as effective in killing Americans as the US automobile is.
bcnu,
Mikem

-I'd have a sig, but we Americans have to "watch what we say now".
New What did that have to do with my message?
I'm talking about (a) the probable exaggerated figures being used, and (b) that even if they weren't exaggerated, it would be unpleasant but casualties happen in wartime. Where did automobile accidents in the U.S. fly into it?
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Perhaps I misread?
>>On the other hand, I have to say: 62 civilians a day?
>>My ass.
>>We have not bombed 3700 Afghan civilians out of existance

I inferred that you thought 62/day killed was an unbelieveably high number. Only tried to point out that 62/day is small, very small, in fact, when compared to auto deaths, which don't seem to make much news, and which seem to be "an acceptable number".

62/day civilian dead is both believeable, and very small when compared to our war with Iraq. Doesn't make it any more acceptible - (we're at "war" apparently with one man and his gang, who are not Afghani), but it is a relatively small number. I dragged in auto deaths only to illustrate how relatively small the number is, then ranted a bit, sorry ;-)
New From what I read...
...that "civilian" count is going to be overstated.

Night security guards at military installations was just one that I saw that would be...um...questionable to count as civilian.

Any deaths are unfortunate. The question will then become...through continued intervention and assistance...can we get a "stable" regime in place that will be able to stop the internal civilian killing going on.

Think of that as a "seat belt law"...if you want.

You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Good Luck.
>>can we get a "stable" regime in place that will be able to stop the internal
>>civilian killing going on.

Interesting notion, that. A "stable regime" comprised of drug running war lords. Oops, sorry, those are "our guys in the region". I forgot.
New Oh...thats right...
...we're the only ones involved in development of the coalition government...even though it was held in Germany by the UN and I'm not sure if we even had anyone of real importance there at all.

Slipped my mind.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Huh?
It's still a "coalition" of drug running war lords, no?
New Now you're going to make me go all liberal on you
I don't care what or how many drugs they grow or manufacture. Ship them over here in bulk cargo carriers and give them out free. *Poof* 95% of the problems involved in our so-called war on drugs, drug violence, drug racketeering go away.

As if that would ever happen; there's too many people with too much time, effort, and ego involved in the War on Drugs.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Yikes! I've been found out.
My one ultra-conservative stance: I strongly oppose the legalization of the non-therapeutic use of psycho-active medications.

Please don't tell anyone I am not purely Left. <:-O
New snort ---------> :)
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Traitor... ;-)
New 180\ufffd backwards, at least.
Leave the psychoactives alone! An\ufffdsthetization is essential relief during the self-destruct phase of a declining civilization; it Will be sought out by more and more; make it illegal and.. there won't be room left in the jails for the actual criminals. Like now.

OTOH - for 50K years or so, people needed far fewer alkaloids and other effective plant remedies; no one needs .01% of the Rx, Rx-OTC and other nostrums available in your drug.. store, supermarket and 7-11. Surely the (apparently daily & hourly) headaches alone! >> Think about that. Surely this adfactoid is the least subtle Clue-x-Four imaginable ? that:

Our society Makes Our Heads Hurt. Psychosomatic up the wazoo: start eliminating the causes; convert the pharm-chem aisles into Segway playpens, divert pharm-chem and insurance drains into grants for orchestras and other useful stuff..

But leave the useful drugs alone. OK?




Ashton Solutions for Moribund Cultures AG
\ufffdOur Motto\ufffd

Act-out your delusions of world domination with a pinch of methyl benzoyl ecgonine HCl ... and leave the rest of us alone!
New No headaches at all
I wonder how much of that lack of headache 50000 years ago can be explained by premature loss of head. What was the life expectancy back then? 25 years? 30 years? Got kids - can die.
New Re: scratching gnads and wondering
perhaps if you add in the perspective [link|http://www.zmag.org/steelewrongwar.htm|here], it might make better sense?

Perhaps...
New I think you need to find better sources.
Just my opinion.

Your link says in the first paragraph:

The toppling of the Taliban may eventually prove to be the best thing to have happened in Afghanistan for a decade. But it was not an initial aim of the US-led war. In the wake of their departure from Kandahar, that point cannot be stressed enough, before the drumbeat of triumpalism deafens us all. Victory over the wrong opponent is not much of a victory. It sounds more like "collateral benefit" - provided we are sure the benefit outweighs the costs.

(Emphasis added)

Since the first paragraph of the story is wrong, I would be suspicious of the rest. It's quite easy to check these things from original sources.

What was the US's purpose? Let's see, in [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html|Bush's address] to the joint session of Congress on September 20 he said:

Americans have many questions tonight. Americans are asking: Who attacked our country? The evidence we have gathered all points to a collection of loosely affiliated terrorist organizations known as al Qaeda. They are the same murderers indicted for bombing American embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, and responsible for bombing the USS Cole.

Al Qaeda is to terror what the mafia is to crime. But its goal is not making money; its goal is remaking the world -- and imposing its radical beliefs on people everywhere.

The terrorists practice a fringe form of Islamic extremism that has been rejected by Muslim scholars and the vast majority of Muslim clerics -- a fringe movement that perverts the peaceful teachings of Islam. The terrorists' directive commands them to kill Christians and Jews, to kill all Americans, and make no distinction among military and civilians, including women and children.

This group and its leader -- a person named Osama bin Laden -- are linked to many other organizations in different countries, including the Egyptian Islamic Jihad and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. There are thousands of these terrorists in more than 60 countries. They are recruited from their own nations and neighborhoods and brought to camps in places like Afghanistan, where they are trained in the tactics of terror. They are sent back to their homes or sent to hide in countries around the world to plot evil and destruction.

The leadership of al Qaeda has great influence in Afghanistan and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al Qaeda's vision for the world.

Afghanistan's people have been brutalized -- many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.

The United States respects the people of Afghanistan -- after all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid -- but we condemn the Taliban regime. (Applause.) It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists. By aiding and abetting murder, the Taliban regime is committing murder.

And tonight, the United States of America makes the following demands on the Taliban: Deliver to United States authorities all the leaders of al Qaeda who hide in your land. (Applause.) Release all foreign nationals, including American citizens, you have unjustly imprisoned. Protect foreign journalists, diplomats and aid workers in your country. Close immediately and permanently every terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and hand over every terrorist, and every person in their support structure, to appropriate authorities. (Applause.) Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps, so we can make sure they are no longer operating.

These demands are not open to negotiation or discussion. (Applause.) The Taliban must act, and act immediately. They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.


I think the speech, especially the last 3 cited paragraphs, is quite clear. And Bush's policy in Afghanistan it was clear very early on. The Taliban was going to be toppled if they didn't comply with the US demands. The author, Mr. Steele, is engaging in revisionism to state otherwise.

Cheers,
Scott.
New much like me examining my dump for corn :)
It is interesting to me to see the time travel thru the colon examining the issues re colon cancer and delay. The fact that I see corn does not eliminate the benefits of having timely bowel movements,
I assume you havnt seen the tape of Osama and his buds discussing their pre knowledge of events. Does the side effect of our attacks on afghanistan preclude us from deriding any benefits of helping a wartorn nation heal itself? I think not. The excuse that lives taken by Americans are somehow worth less than those taken by fellow tribesmen is fallacious. A life is a life. Do we have a clue wether the deaths in Afghanland will help stop terrorism? Who cares, we helped a country breath again and our guilt will rebuild a self imposed mess. For that alone the world owes us nothing as usual.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New You know, that was need-to-know information...
...and I didn't need to know!


EEEEEEEEEEWWWWW!
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New there was a web site some where
who tabulated those who looked, those who didnt and those who "examined" the evidence on the tp. Interesting reading.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Interesting
So the Taliban lied about the number of civilian casualties because they were afraid of losing face. Come on - give me a break. The Taliban were quite willing to display to the world as many civilian casualties as they could possibly muster. I find that logic to be rather specious. By and large the numbers he quotes are the exact same ones quoted by the Taliban - and were the same ones reported in the foreign press of India and Pakistan - his main source of inspiration.

Yes, there were many more civilians killed in this dispute than the press has reported. But it is naive to think that one can impose their "will" on a foreign force by military means and not have civilian casualties. The US has been fighting an all out war against the Taliban regime, and it is not surprising that innocent lives were lost. The argument may sway the pacifist crowd (of which I have leanings), but anyone that supports military action must be fully cognizant that acts of war are violent in the extreme. The same argument against US action in Afghanistan could have been easily invoked against US bombing of Germany where the civilian casualties dwarfed those in the last few months - think Dresden. In the extremist case, a civilian casualty is never justified no matter the enemy being fought.

The other bias that gets mixed into the report is to blame all the Afghan problems on the US. For example, prior to the US ever giving Afghanistan a second glance, there was a large number of refugees, a drought, and an impending humanitarian crisis. One can argue that the U.S. bombing made the problem worse or at least brought it to a head but to view the US military actions in isolation of the history of Afghanistan over the last 14 years is blatant propaganda. The truth is that Afghanistan has been at war during that time. The US is simply finishing the job. It's convenient to focus exclusively on the US culpability in the last few months without consideration of the larger problem of lawlessness and the totalitarian response of the Taliban. The reason the US got involved is because these people couldn't get their shit together. In order to support their fascism, they turned their attention to the outside world hoping to spread their misery to the rest of the world.

Perhaps instead of dropping bombs and killing a few thousand, the U.S. should have imposed economic sanctions to get the Taliban to hand over those "few criminals". Likely result would have been millions starving to death and the Taliban becoming more entrenched in the control of every aspect of life of their loyal electorate.

As for being a "just war", I don't find his arguments convincing. The Taliban conspired with forces which had declared war on the US. If not for the military action, it's likely that their efforts of terrorism would continue unabated. Will the US action prevent future terrorism. Probably stopped some of it dead in it's tracks. Probably created future enmity in others that might not have existed before. However, inaction was not an option. The author's sole solution to this delimma is that the US pilots should have flown at lower altitudes and we should have put in more ground troops - thus giving the Taliban a sporting chance.

I agree that Americans tend to ignore the problems of the rest of the world - as we ignored the Taliban prior to 9/11. But this tends to be a catch 22. They're pissed when we ignore them and pissed when we don't. The logical conclusion to his argument about the US apathy prior to 9/11 is that we should have intervened prior to that point - not necessarily that we should never have overthrown the government after said time. Personally, I'd have rather that they resolve their own problems - not export them - and we could have continued to ignore them. The US may not have done much to solve Afghan's problems, but we also were not the major reason for them either - leaving aside others who blame the US for every bad that's happened in the last 70 years.
     Perhaps this will interest a few - (TTC) - (21)
         scratching gnads and wondering - (boxley) - (19)
             62 civilians a day? - (wharris2) - (13)
                 62/day is not a big number. - (mmoffitt) - (12)
                     What did that have to do with my message? - (wharris2) - (11)
                         Perhaps I misread? - (mmoffitt) - (10)
                             From what I read... - (bepatient) - (9)
                                 Good Luck. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                                     Oh...thats right... - (bepatient) - (7)
                                         Huh? - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                             Now you're going to make me go all liberal on you - (wharris2) - (5)
                                                 Yikes! I've been found out. - (mmoffitt) - (4)
                                                     snort ---------> :) -NT - (boxley)
                                                     Traitor... ;-) -NT - (Simon_Jester)
                                                     180\ufffd backwards, at least. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                         No headaches at all - (Arkadiy)
             Re: scratching gnads and wondering - (TTC) - (4)
                 I think you need to find better sources. - (Another Scott)
                 much like me examining my dump for corn :) - (boxley) - (2)
                     You know, that was need-to-know information... - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                         there was a web site some where - (boxley)
         Interesting - (ChrisR)

I've fished dese ol' archives before and I'll fish em' again!
79 ms