Indeed

Post #20,663 by tjsinclair 12/7/01 1:48:32 PM Reply	Indeed If you boot OS X and hold down the <Cmd> and S keys, it will boot into single-user mode. There is an Open Firmware patch to disable this behavior (or a t least require a password to access single-user mode). In the early days of OS X (Public Beta and 10.0) I found single-user mode very useful for running fsck on my drives when X would lock up or crash on me. (Sometimes it wouldn't even boot into Aqua and fsck was the only way to get it working again.) However, since 10.1 (and after I got rid of my CPU upgrade card) I haven't had to use this mode at all. Some other fun facts re: OS X, for those here who are new to the environs... - By default, most network services are turned off. - The default remote access method is SSH. (After you enable Remote Login in the Sharing Preferences, of course. By default, even this is turned off.) - The root user is locked out by default. Sudo is used to do root-type stuff and even that is only accessible by administrative-level users. - If you log in as >console you will drop out of the GUI to a CLI and be presented with the Darwin login prompt. (I like to startle Mac 9.x and Windows users with this. It also has a salutary effect on UNIX users as well.) - The usual configuration files such as /etc/hosts are available but are not used. This information is in the netinfo database, a directory service accessible through the CLI using niutil and through the GUI with Netinfo Manager. Netinfo can be tied into an LDAP or NIS directory and help integrate OS X into a larger network. (Apple has been very close-mouthed on the subject of netinfo. Understandably, since the average user has no need to play with it. But for us geeks who don't want to shell out the coin for OS X Server, it's kind of frustrating to have to dig up material on this ourselves.) - Sendmail comes pre-installed but it's not pre-configured. However, there are some tutorials that show how to use it with Mail.app so you can compose and send e-mail while offline, letting sendmail keep it in queue for you until you re-connect. Handy for us Powerbook users. - Webmin (at least as of version 0.90) is available for OS X. Since X administration is a bit different from other NIXes, however, there is a project under way to develop Webmin modules specifically for the OS. - Samba is available and works like a champ. - So is MySQL, PostgresSQL and X Window. Anyway, I find this discussion interesting since many die-hard Mac users are complaining that OS X is too* locked-down and that they're no longer able to do whatever they want with 'their' Macs. Personally, as an UNIX enthusiast, I like the extra security. I like being able to give my wife a non-admin account and then setting it up to automatically start her e-mail program at login. I like the concept of a home directory where I can organize all of my files to my heart's content. I like reading on the Web that both Windows and NIX users are buying Macs just so they can run OS X. I like the fact that Apple supplies OS 9, OS X and* a CD full of Developer tools for less than MS charges for XP. (Even less than that when I use my academic discount.) I like the fact that I can take the UNIX source for a program and (most times) re-compile it for my Mac without a lot of tweaking. (I got the INFORM compiler working like this and am now happily designing my very own Infocom-like text adventure game.) Anyway, OS X rules. That's just my opinion, of course. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits "Of course, just because we've heard a spine-chilling, blood-curdling scream of the sort to make your very marrow freeze in your bones doesn't automatically mean there's anything wrong." -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Post #20,702 by a6l6e6x 12/7/01 4:53:39 PM Reply	Thanks for review of OSX, Tom! Alex Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Post #20,734 by tjsinclair 12/7/01 9:21:03 PM Reply	I got a bit carried away I got a decent night's sleep for the first time in days and I was just sitting at my new TiBook, setting up ssh connections with my Solaris server and my G4 tower. It hit me how cool this all was and I wanted someone else to know. You may return to your regularly scheduled lives now. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits "Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
Post #20,738 by boxley 12/7/01 9:42:34 PM Reply	hey I said in 1986 that if they wanted a useful OS (to me) give me acces to the guts and code in a CLI they did I bought one. MSfree nix n mac 9.1 all at the same time. We used to hafta marry macs to Suns and appollos for the Oil companies to get the same effect of this little desktop. Way cool and thanx fer the tips. bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #20,762 by tjsinclair 12/8/01 12:05:47 AM Reply	You're welcome I'm teaching a class in UNIX system administration this term. (Actually, I created the class and was one of the leading advocates for it...end of plug). OS X integrates so well with UNIX, it's almost scary. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits The Ramkins were more highly bred than a hilltop bakery, whereas Corporal Nobbs had been disqualified from the human race for shoving. -- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)
Post #20,743 by wharris2 12/7/01 9:58:21 PM Reply	Good God, did Apple do something right? - By default, most network services are turned off. - The default remote access method is SSH. (After you enable Remote Login in the Sharing Preferences, of course. By default, even this is turned off.) - The root user is locked out by default. Sudo is used to do root-type stuff and even that is only accessible by administrative-level users. Gee willikers, that's more security-minded than any Linux distribution I've used. (Yes, I know, there are "secure" Linux distributions. Bastille can harden a system to some degree. But RedHat and others should take this OSX approach; don't turn things on unless specifically asked to.) Now if only Apple could get their collective head out of their ascii on hardware... sigh. Thank you Jobs for killing the clone market. "Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it." -- Donald Knuth
Post #20,751 by nking 12/7/01 10:21:06 PM Reply	You can't go wrong copying BSD Unix As the BSD Unix systems are some of the most secure Unix operating systems out there. If OSX is based on BSD then it gains the *BSD security settings. Besides it had to happen sooner or later. Sort of like throwing darts at a target, eventually one of them is bound to hit a bullseye. Now can Apple learn from their past mistakes, or are they doomed to repeat those mistakes?
Post #21,676 by static 12/16/01 10:46:42 PM Reply	Stop it! Stop it, I say... yer makin' me want a Mac! :-) Wade "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #21,689 by Ashton 12/17/01 3:51:36 AM Reply	Umm me too.. by proxy at least. That is, next time someone 'wants a computer' and asks my opinion.. I certainly can't be instrumental in adding a single M$ sale, or suffer Dante's and OT Hellfire in stereo. Linux? I'd have to be their sysadmin for, forever. Also setup their ISP, mail, whatever goes on with Office 6.x (now in beta). Ugh. Presumably an Apple dealer would deliver them a running machine and enough links for them to read - in English! both how to learn more, if they want to - and a decent selection of aps, which would install as painlessly as seems the rule. They'd get real printed manuals* too. And not get sent to MSN on any accidental keystroke. (What's that worth, in $ ?) {sigh} Maybe time to check out local Apple dealer and see if s/he is worthy of recommendation. H/ware costs are no longer prohibitive and - the alternative for any newbie appears now to be Apple or The Beast. Pity that RH et al don't Get It, are unable to market to this class - and don't seem anxious to learn. Damn.. that XP-rollout was Such an opportunity! Blown :( Hey! Buy Our Stuff AND ya don't gotta register Nothing - Ever! Ashton
Post #21,895 by boxley 12/18/01 3:19:58 PM Reply	well the imac comes pre-installed with office software a few all around things. CompUSA had a $245 extra that included a lot of handholding and classes. The Quickstart guide was very well done on how to plug cables and turn on etc. Manuals were minimal but concise. My crew caught on immeadiately with the 7yold helping the 9 and 12yold over the humps. Open a browser and the modem kicks off. The first time you turn it on it asks you about what number you need to dial for your ISP and would you like autodial on demand. The only shortcoming is that since the system is pre-installed root passwd has already been set and I had to dig a tad to see how to change it from the install cd. thanx, bil My Dreams arn't as empty as my concience seems to be
Post #21,919 by Ashton 12/18/01 7:48:13 PM Reply	Thanks, noted for ref. I think the next 'asker' gets to be the pigeon. I'll go along for the ride (in atonement for not Really knowing what I'm recommending). Besides.. whatever are the available tech-info sources: they just GOTTA be vastly more intelligent than anything they could get for Doze. Now as to the Mac version of ZoneAlarm, WebWasher n'such - I 'spoze that they are hardly worrying pretty little heads about M$ Lookout! and IE tricks. So I'll have some homework to do for them.. Dunno how IE on iMac finds ways to screw you up, but it Has to be built-in at the factory (?) Hmm - alternate Apple browsers.. Ashton
Post #21,921 by tjsinclair 12/18/01 8:45:29 PM Reply	Alternate Apple browsers on OS X At last count: OmniWeb Opera (still in preview, I think) iCab Mozilla Netscape 6.x (I know, a more 'consumer-friendly' Mozilla but different enough to rate separate mention.) On the text-based side: Lynx Links We also have curl and wget which allow us to download Web content automagically to our hard drives, among other things.) Mmmmmmm.....choices......<drools> Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits Many an ancient lord's last words had been, "You can't kill me because I've got magic aaargh." -- Magic armour is not all it's cracked up to be. (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)
Post #21,925 by Ashton 12/18/01 10:03:16 PM Reply	Yabut that's... Unix er Applix er anyway - I'm presuming OS-X ain't fer newbies - but a decent morph to 'Linux' for them as had Apple tendencies (?) Guess I {sigh} gotta edjacate self.. 'least I've prolly saved self ~$10K by not going through Steve's slow crawl up from the 128K - at $2500 a pop.. (I played with a pre-release Mac; friend was an editor for Mc Graw-Hill Electronics - once the premier mag of that genre. Now it's toast. Bought Apple stock. Won.) Damn - look at all the inflection points when, had they been less greedy, they coulda cleaned Billykin's Clock and Steve'd be The Beast and.. we'd never have heard much of that terminally whiny voice :( At least Steve talks ~ like a human. Anyways it's gettin to be a Decision matter for me - whether to CP/M my way through all the incessant Linux details enroute to competence OR: Recognize that I rilly don't Want another 100 Gbytes of neurons filled with all those details and maybe.. just maybe.. Apple's not only ready for prime time, but can survive Billy.. Y'know? I want my Mommy. Mommy! which way should I go - there's a forque in The Road Ahead (ever skim that piece of autistic doggerel? ugh.) Now if I had a late model Appul with std OS - I could (I bet) dual boot and have Both Worlds piece by piece! Hmmmm Ashton the Vacillating
Post #21,938 by tjsinclair 12/19/01 12:53:20 AM Reply	Actually, OS X is very newbie friendly.. as well as catering to the geeky techno-user. The main people who seem to have problems with it are the ones who have customized their OS 9 environment to a gnat's-eyelash and have tuned their muscle memory so they waste as little energy as possible getting things done. (Primarily graphics and design folk, I think but I'm willing to be corrected.) Anyway, there are two faces of OS X: - Newbie-friendly: Big colorful photorealistic icons, a nice friendly toolbar on the Finder window, a simplified (single-window) Finder as a default choice, the Dock, animations and transparency effects to show you when something happens and what it probably was. - Geeky Techno crowd: What can I say...BSD layer, complete with CLI, built-in Apache/Sendmail, built-in directory service (Netinfo) accessible to admins which can also be tied to NIS/LDAP, Java 2, GNU tools, so forth and so on. So the level of complexity experienced by an OS X user varies by the user. I'm reminded of Trip Hawkins (Of Electronic Arts) definition of a good computer game: simple, hot and deep. simple - easy to get started without having to read 50 page manuals. Just jumpt right in. hot - once you're in, you are pulled into the game experience and encouraged to continue playing. deep - as your skill and knowledge grows, more of the game reveals itself to you, further drawing you in. Speaking of OS X, I was trying to explain XML to a beginning CS student of mine tonight. I explained that XML was a markup language with roots in SGML (I pulled up a 10-Q filing on www.sec.gov and showed him the tags) Then it occurred to me where I could find a local example of XML. OS X keeps it's configuration files (referred to as 'Preferences') in XML format. So you can edit them in a plain old text editor or use a GUI tool (supplied with the Developer Tools). So I pulled up the preferences for Appleworks and showed him the tags and the data. As for multi-boot, I know you can dual-boot PPC-based Linux and Mac OS 9. Mac OS X dual-boots with Mac OS 9, so you can in theory triple-boot between OS 9, Linux and OS X. (Of course, if you log in as >console, you're dropped out of the Aqua GUI and into a Darwin text login prompt from which you can run XFree86, an X Window manager and all of your favorite NIX tools. So maybe that's quadruple booting. Oops, forgot Virtual PC which will let you run: - DOS - Windows 3.x - Windows 9x - Windows NT 3.x/4 - Windows 2000 - Windows ME - Windows XP - OS/2 - x86 Linux - x86 BSD - x86 Solaris (I presume. I may try this myself) Okay, by this time I'm just showing off. I agree that Apple HW is pricey and a big step for Wintel users. (The price gap is beginning to close, however.) I think that in most cases, getting those folks a copy of Linux is a good step. But OS X and NIX integrate so well that I hope that we reach a state of The Best Tool for the Job(tm), relying on common, open standards rather than common HW/SW to allow folks to work together. Thus endeth the lesson. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits It is said that whosoever the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. In fact, whosoever the gods wish to destroy, they first hand the equivalent of a stick with a fizzing fuse and Acme Dynamite Company written on the side. It's more interesting, and doesn't take so long. -- (Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
Post #22,308 by Ashton 12/22/01 10:06:23 PM Reply	Many thanks for nifty intro If Apple isn't the new Swiss Army Knife ... dunno what is. Now if an Apple dealer had said the same thing (!) Thus far has bizness credibility fallen.. to ~0. Looking forward to next query, what should I do? (Will show him/her this thread) Maybe learn along with newbie. Two birds; one stoned. My main point would be (in advance): HW cost is a Red Herring, when you consider the tribulations of lock-in, in bed with The Beast; or the learning curve to maintain by yourself, a Linux install - from the point of only GUI experience in an office. Just one other consideration: I grok the reasons why a full backup of Windoze demands an image - too many open files, etc. Is a full backup of OS- 9 or X equivalent: a Ghost-like image save, partition by partition? That is, thinking newbie EZ-save/restore. If you have full data backups, a complete restoration ever beats minute troubleshooting - unless you just like problem solving. Most users don't like or can't do. {sniff} no more SpinRite though.. :( Doubt you could get through DOS-emulator layer to the guts, as SR must. Oh Well - at $100 a pop, who needs to test HDs anymore? Thanks again, Ashton
Post #22,330 by tjsinclair 12/23/01 11:57:24 AM Reply	Backup/Restore Don't have an exact answer to this, but I'll try anyway. As far as I know, there isn't an equivalent to Ghost on the Mac OS side except for Apple Software Restore, a utility that will let you create a bootable installer CD with all of your apps (poss. data as well) on it. I've also seen instructions for creating a custom OS X installer CD on the net as well. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits "Well, basically there are two sorts of opera,' said Nanny, who also had the true witch's ability to be confidently expert on the basis of no experience whatsoever. 'There's your heavy opera, where basically people sing foreign and it goes like "Oh oh oh, I am dyin', oh, I am dyin', oh, oh, oh, that's what I'm doin'", and there's your light opera, where they sing in foreign and it basically goes "Beer! Beer! Beer! Beer! I like to drink lots of beer!", although sometimes they drink champagne instead. That's basically all of opera, really." -- (Terry Pratchett, Maskerade)
Post #22,344 by Ashton 12/23/01 5:32:10 PM Reply	But there's Tosca: Ya want me? Over your dead body Scarpia!
Post #22,309 by Ashton 12/22/01 10:12:12 PM Reply	LRPD sez:When someone asks you if you're a god, you say YES!

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