Can't say I blame them

Post #204,941 by tuberculosis 4/27/05 12:36:27 PM Reply	Can't say I blame them hell - the bloody title is libelous. iCon - clever pun on so many levels. However, one that jumps right out is the association with con man. The implication in the title is that Steve got to where he is by scamming. This title would make more sense for an Enron exec. There's nothing phony about Steve's vision, strategy, and taste in design. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #204,949 by Andrew Grygus 4/27/05 1:37:14 PM Reply	Well, didn't he? Apple products have traditionally been overpriced to the point Apple considered anything with less than 50% gross out the door to be unacceptable, when in the PC world 10% was heaven on earth. The Apple II was a scam. A machine that should have sold for a quarter what it did, with every possible compromise to reduce cost at the expense of performance made, and then sold at a premium price. It didn't even have lower case and the keyboard was almost totally useless (because Jobs couldn't type, I suspect). The Apple III was a scam. It never worked and it's operating system, "Sophisticated Operating System" (SOS) was the most appropriately named piece of software I ever encountered. The Lisa was a scam. Hideously expensive machine with weird proprietary hardware and no software, ever. When the Lisa was obviously failing Jobs dumped the Macintosh development crew, put in his own toadies and claimed it as his own. The Next was a scam. Again, hideously overpriced, proprietary hardware, proprietary software and Jobs refused to put in a floppy drive until near the end despite pleading by his engineers. Writable opticals were very expensive in those days, so distributing a 1 byte bug fix cost a developer about $40 per customer. Apple recurited gobs of VARs for the Newton and they spent a lot of money developing for it. The moment Jobs returned he turned that into a scam by canceling it right out from under them. I can't count the number of dealer scams, and right now Jobs is deliberately and systematically putting every independent Apple dealer out of business so you can only get a Mac from an Apple store. A few dealers have enough resources to sue, and some have. The operation is so blatant I expect they'll win. The only thing that kept Apple alive through more major business blunders than any other business could have survived was a thoroughly conned pool of enthusiasts completely sold that image was superior to reality. If Microsoft had had a working product Apple would have been history 10 times over. Anyway, I could go on and on and on and on - but in my opinion implying Jobs a con man is totally appropriate. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #204,954 by tuberculosis 4/27/05 2:17:46 PM Reply	Not in my book Apple products have traditionally been overpriced You're showing your age big time. This hasn't been true for a long time. Apple stuff has been competitively priced since the second coming. It costs a bit more, it is built a lot better than the competition. The Apple II was a scam. You might say the same thing about the VW Beetle. The Apple II was the most successful desktop computer up to that time and was the impetus for IBM to enter the market. There wasn't much to compare to it at the time. The Apple III was a scam. The word you're looking for is "Lemon". You know, like the Ford Pinto. The Lisa was a scam. And yet it was ground breaking and changed forever how people perceived computers. Failure? Yes. Too expensive. I liken it to the Prius. New technology, not quite ready for general use. When the Lisa was obviously failing Jobs dumped the Macintosh development crew, put in his own toadies and claimed it as his own. My recollection is that he was kicked off the team by the new management. He started the Mac as a skunkworks project. He saved the company by doing it. The Next was a scam. Them's figthing words. Again, groundbreaking technology. I don't know a single Next developer who doesn't lament its loss. It sired the World Wide Web and it lives on as Cocoa in OS X. It is Apple's secret weapon. Shareware remains a thriving little industry on the Mac because its so easy and fun to program, largely thanks to Cocoa. It was packaged badly in the hardware though. Apple recurited gobs of VARs for the Newton and they spent a lot of money developing for it. The moment Jobs returned he turned that into a scam by canceling it right out from under them. Huh? He kills a product he wouldn't have created in the first place and you call that a scam? I can't count the number of dealer scams, and right now Jobs is deliberately and systematically putting every independent Apple dealer out of business so you can only get a Mac from an Apple store. This is different from M$'s treatment of 3rd party developers how? The only thing that kept Apple alive through more major business blunders than any other business could have survived was a thoroughly conned pool of enthusiasts completely sold that image was superior to reality. Uh, the reality was that the product was superior to the image (windows). Conned? I feel like I got good value for my money. But I usually shop value vs price. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #204,960 by Andrew Grygus 4/27/05 2:43:41 PM Reply	The Apple II was made popular by VisiCalc, and . . . . . Dan Briklin's stubborn refusal to make a CPM/80 version because he couldn't effectively copy protect it. In the business market people chose Apple IIs to run VisiCalc, and for no other reason. An Eagle running CPM/80 was a far better machine for business. SuperCalc was already killing off the Apple II in business when Lotus came on the scene. As for the IBM PC, yes, the Apple II did have a role. Dan Estridge asked "why is the Apple II so popular" and his answer was, "because so many companies are making money producing add-in products and software for it." The IBM PC was pretty much an updated Apple II, something Apple should have already done long before. At the same time Steve Jobs looked at the same situation and said, "Look at all those companies making money off the Apple II. That is all rightfully Apple's money and this can never be allowed to happen again". History is the judge. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #204,982 by CRConrad 4/27/05 4:08:33 PM Reply	Good to know you aren't all that freakishly brilliant. Allowed the wool to be pretty comprehensively pulled down over your eyes by Steve, you have. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #205,004 by tuberculosis 4/27/05 5:46:53 PM Reply	As opposed to Dell/Gates people who would have fought the introduction of the transistor rather than risk a down quarter? Somebody has to blaze the trails and take the wrong turns. Jobs's influence on the industry is ubiquitous and undeniable. "Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" --Mark Twain "The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." --Albert Einstein "This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses." --George W. Bush
Post #205,037 by boxley 4/27/05 9:03:44 PM Reply	points to the gryge except for the NeXT, beautiful box wonder to behold, bsd under the hood for the most part. Not having a floppy? Feh, the apollo's sitting NeXT to them didnt have floppies either, or the decs. disclaimer I am/was NeXT certified repair person thanx, bill All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #205,043 by Another Scott 4/27/05 9:25:13 PM Reply	Wow. You really have done everything, haven't you? :-)
Post #205,051 by boxley 4/27/05 9:36:44 PM Reply	naw, there is a wicker swing with a hole in the bottom..... All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true" Terry Pratchett [link\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/\|http://boxleys.blogspot.com/] Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 48 years. meep questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #205,068 by Andrew Grygus 4/27/05 10:29:45 PM Reply	I'll partially concede on the NeXT . . . . . since I've had little contact with it (as for the others - I wuz there and done that). On the other hand, the floppy issue was widley discussed at the time and it was hurting the NeXT, but Jobs wouldn't allow it because floppies were "obsolete". Eventually he caved, and of course he presented adding a floppy drive as his own idea, but by then it was too late. Today not having a floppy isn't a big deal but back then you probably had a 9600bps modem if you were lucky enought to have WAN connectivity at all, and today a writable CD costs $0.50 vs. as much as $40 for writable optical back then. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #205,065 by rcareaga 4/27/05 10:26:59 PM Reply	Grygus on Apple While I disagree with much of his indictment, I can't pass up an opportunity to pile on disparagement of of the late, unlamented Apple ][ (as it used to be styled). This was my first computer, sold to me in October 1982 for a sum slightly north of a quarter of my then-annual income. It came with a whopping 48K of RAM (later upgraded to 64K) and, as AG mentions, the inability to display lowercase characters onscreen, a feature I later added for about $200 by means of a so-called "80-column card"—which could not, alas, keep up with my two-fingered typing. Before a year had passed I had ceased to use the beast, although my then-spouse did not. I could scarcely bear to look at it, and resented the check I wrote each month to the credit union that had financed the folly. About two years after the initial purchase the spouse, at that time working for a Berkeley-based software house (subsequently sued out of business for ripping off Broderbund), started talking up the Macintosh. My response was: "I will never permit a machine from that loathsome company to cross my threshold." One evening she lured me onto the premises and then, pleading a meeting, left me in a room with a single table and an original 128K Mac with MacPaint already launched. When she came back I sighed heavily and said "You win. Where do I sign?" The spouse left, all passion spent. The attachment to the Mac has endured, and a decade's exposure to Microsoft's competing technologies has never come close to denting this. I still do not adore the company, but the elegance of their OS has kept my heart. It astounds me that Microsoft with all its gazillions has suffered itself to remain lashed to such an ugly UI/OS. cordially, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #205,491 by Ashton 5/2/05 5:33:17 AM Reply	Me on Osborne Heh, beatcha by ~ a year - got my Osborne1 S/N 0189 in spring '81. Dealer in Hayward had CP/M and Apples - all of which were sold TO DO VISICALC, as reported above and most other places. Knowing little about such things, having most experience with CDC-6600s, Modcomps, PDP-8s and my hP-65 .. I looked under the hood of the ][ -- this being prior to revelations of Jobs' tech-guru (Andy Herzfeld, was it?) and the manic desire to make things serve multiple purposes to save pennies / sell for ^$$^, as Andrew points out succinctly. I did not like what I saw lectronically therein, so headed for the Digital Research OS spread. Dealer saw CP/M as eating Apple lunch, and Digital Research as the savvier OS guys. Fortunately, Adam O. invented BUNDLING, and my $1800ish 64K Os1 came with WordStar, etc. on its scrawny scrolly 5" 'window on an 80-character-screen'. KB was OK, whereas Apple's was NOT. I put up with the one-board sewing-machine design because of cost/design effectiveness (esp. with the bundling). And.. it was at least, portative.. Having then my Own WP and that.. contrasted with the massive Wang-thing at work: I was sure this stuff would catch on. [So why ain't I rich?] Gawd what a disaster BillyCo have made of Doze - perhaps the main reason? why Jobs' hyper-ego / temper tantrums were tolerable even to bizness types all along. Yes, he's a Bastard - but a far more 'innovative' and Useful Bastard than the Beast, who only ever market stuff they don't ever understand. (Hard to weigh the Greed factor between the two sociopaths, of course.) All overpriced until nowadays.. now it's bitchin Value per dollar - esp. compared to the store-grade Intel crap for iggerant peons. I'll have one anon, reinforced after again playing with friend's Powerbook / recent interlude in LA: Order coffee, turn-on. Watch it magically and autonomously log-on to network with no BS. (Airport card added per your clue!) A jewel of industrial design, that Powerbook - a techno connoisseur would want one even if it didn't work. But Hey.. my Otrona fired up last time I tried it; will still pick WStar over fucking bloated mouse-obsessed Word, for any speedy text composition I'd ever need to do. Could brush up on WS KB commands in prolly a half-hour; they Understood mnemonics! Word Imperfect never did... My 3 Kopeks Of Course they're All bastards! Murican capitalism can spawn no other type of Leader than the best-lying sociopath and dream-weaver. Mother's milk.

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