Actually...

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

And I clearly remember, after I left, that it was routine for there to be court cases in which judges would say that stories were not allowed to be reported on in Canada.

Glancing at the Charter, the first clause is an exemption that you could drive a Mack truck through, and undoubtably the cases of court muzzling that I remember were so driven. That is, the government is free to erect any limitations on the rights guaranteed in the Charter as long as they can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. I'm sure that Bush, Ashcroft and Co. would love it if the US system had a blanket exemption as big as that one (particularly if you can get your case heard by a friendly judge).

I stand by my statement. Canada does not, even in theory, uphold the principle of freedom of speech. The USA definitely does that in theory, and has been known to do it in very painful and embarrasing practice. (eg The Pentagon Papers for one example, or for another, instructions for how to build hydrogen bombs.)

Sincerely,
Ben

As I understand it, a judge can decide whether or not to permit reporters in the court, and can try to get reporters to agree to specific conditions. However judges can't tell reporters that they cannot tell people about a case, and cannot keep reporters who happen to hear details from reporting them.

By contrast in Canada judges may say that they don't want something reported, and nobody is allowed to report it. Period.

Furthermore my impression of how common permanent publication bans are is different from yours. Specifically I understand that it is rare for an entire case to not be reportable (excepting cases involving minors - and there are lots of those), but fairly frequently a small portion of a case is permanently banned (eg testimony from family members about how much grief they went through, which doesn't affect whether the verdict is guilty, but may affect sentencing).

Cheers,
Ben

Post #195,001 by pwhysall 2/16/05 1:58:54 PM Reply	Actually... ...if you ban everyone who fits that description, you'd ban Marlowe. Full stop. I'm not in favour of banning him. I'm in favour of deleting his spam. Now, I'm pragmatic; I'm aware that this is a fairly hypothetical discussion. As it stands, Marlowe's posts are not going to be deleted. However, that should not preclude this discussion. And to those who think that zapping Marlowe's droppings like the spamming trollbug turds that they are would lead to a groupthinkAOLmetooquagmire, well lookee here. I'm disagreeing with you RIGHT NOW. Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #195,017 by ben_tilly 2/16/05 2:51:45 PM Reply	Ah, right You're from a country which doesn't believe, even in theory, that "freedom of speech" deserves protection. I need reminding of that sometimes. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,019 by pwhysall 2/16/05 2:54:08 PM Reply	Don't be smarmy. It's not becoming. I refer you to Todd's passport-confiscation story for how free speech is in the US of A. "Might Be Harmful", ya see... Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #195,021 by ben_tilly 2/16/05 3:05:03 PM Reply	I said "even in theory" In theory, in the USA, we have freedom of speech. Whatever the practice may be. The UK doesn't subscribe to the theory, though in some respects the practice may be better. Regards, Ben PS I grew up in Canada, which is in the same position as the UK on this topic. I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,028 by jake123 2/16/05 3:12:01 PM Reply	No it's not I refer you to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, notwithstanding clause notwithstanding. 'Course, when did you leave... was it before or after '80? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #195,043 by ben_tilly 2/16/05 5:57:00 PM Reply	I left in the 90's And I clearly remember, after I left, that it was routine for there to be court cases in which judges would say that stories were not allowed to be reported on in Canada. Glancing at the Charter, the first clause is an exemption that you could drive a Mack truck through, and undoubtably the cases of court muzzling that I remember were so driven. That is, the government is free to erect any limitations on the rights guaranteed in the Charter as long as they can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society. I'm sure that Bush, Ashcroft and Co. would love it if the US system had a blanket exemption as big as that one (particularly if you can get your case heard by a friendly judge). I stand by my statement. Canada does not, even in theory, uphold the principle of freedom of speech. The USA definitely does that in theory, and has been known to do it in very painful and embarrasing practice. (eg The Pentagon Papers for one example, or for another, instructions for how to build hydrogen bombs.) Sincerely, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,046 by jake123 2/16/05 6:03:20 PM Reply	Hey, publication bans happen all the time in the US too The point being that they're temporary, not permanent. It's very unusual for them to be made permanent, with the exception of sexual abuse cases involving minors (or indeed any case involving minors). However, during a trial sometimes things are banned from publication until after a jury reaches a verdict to avoid polluting a jury. Afterwards, the entire transcript will be published, and anybody who cares to can go down to the courthouse and read it. The cases you heard about were almost universally because the newspapers in question didn't want to have to wait. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #195,048 by ben_tilly 2/16/05 6:44:35 PM Reply	They do? Examples, please. As I understand it, a judge can decide whether or not to permit reporters in the court, and can try to get reporters to agree to specific conditions. However judges can't tell reporters that they cannot tell people about a case, and cannot keep reporters who happen to hear details from reporting them. By contrast in Canada judges may say that they don't want something reported, and nobody is allowed to report it. Period. Furthermore my impression of how common permanent publication bans are is different from yours. Specifically I understand that it is rare for an entire case to not be reportable (excepting cases involving minors - and there are lots of those), but fairly frequently a small portion of a case is permanently banned (eg testimony from family members about how much grief they went through, which doesn't affect whether the verdict is guilty, but may affect sentencing). Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,053 by ben_tilly 2/16/05 6:59:50 PM Reply	Another amusing point about the charter Canada is (unlike the USA) explicitly founded on principles that recognize the supremacy of God, but grants freedom of religion. In the USA state non-interference in religion is an absolute. As someone who does not believe that God exists, which do you think I prefer reading? Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #195,252 by jake123 2/17/05 6:20:13 PM Reply	God is undefined in the charter --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #195,322 by pwhysall 2/18/05 12:39:57 AM Reply	...unless declared integer :-) Peter [link\|http://www.ubuntulinux.org\|Ubuntu Linux] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home] Use P2P for legitimate purposes!
Post #195,352 by jake123 2/18/05 8:28:03 AM Reply	I always figured she was a float(er). --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #195,358 by admin 2/18/05 9:33:41 AM Reply	No, gotta be something with arbitrary precision... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #195,359 by jake123 2/18/05 9:34:59 AM Reply	Floaters are arbitrary when you have infinite bit length. Esp. when they're making fashion decisions. They really ARE arbitrary then. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #195,035 by Arkadiy 2/16/05 4:32:37 PM Reply	Oh please "Never pick a fight with people who buy inc by the barrel" Somebody in Customs is in a lot of hurt now. A whole lot of somebodies, I'd think. -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #195,038 by jake123 2/16/05 5:13:15 PM Reply	No they're not. That's not how customs works. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

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