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New Didn't know that. But, I assume we can do without it?
I mean, I've ridden bicycles; their wheels weigh, at a guess, less than a pound (racing bikes, half that?), so any gyroscopic forces would have to be pretty small compared to your (or especially, *my*! :-) body mass... And bicycles still keep their balance pretty well.

Therefore, it seems to me as if this gyroscopic effect, while apparently beneficial, is not strictly necessary for a "balancing" vehicle.

And yes, I *was* actually thinking handlebar steering.

Thing is, I've heard or read somewhere -- yeah, typical, but isn't that the way it is with a lot of what we claim to "know"? (can't even recall if it was in a bicycle or motorbike context) -- that handlebar-steering kind of *is* steering-by-leaning: If you turn the bars, and *don't* compensate the imbalance by leaning to the inside of the turn, you'll fall to the outside. Now, the claim went, we actually use this effect all the time -- the very *way* we start that inside-leaning, is by (sub-consciously) turning the handlebars the *wrong* way. This starts us "falling" toward the outside of this wrong-turn, which we then utilize as leaning toward the *in-*side of the *correct* turn -- we just follow up by turning the handlebars in the now-appropriate direction, the one we originally *intended* to turn to.

Weird, isn't it? I tried to confirm it a couple years ago, by paying close attention to how I actually rode my bicycle, and by trying to do it this way *consciously*. The results were inconclusive -- it's *damn* hard to consciously monitor or guide your ingrained reflexes! -- but I certainly couldn't *dis-*prove it, anyway.

So, what does this mean, in practical terms, for this particular project? I dunno; could be that I've just ass-u-me'd handlebar steering out of inertia... But maybe it means, at least, that it won't actually actively *hurt* to do it that way.



Apart from the little keel-fins I'm also assuming under each ski (like the ones on regular water-skis and surf-boards -- that is, in a couple of the propulsion scenarios, the rear one would consist of the one on the propeller housing), I've been thinking that by just shaping the skis appropriately, we'd automatically get a correlation between our lean angle, and the angle between the lines they each cut in the surface of the water:

They gotta be rather strongly tapered (or, in extermis, triangular) -- the front one with the thinner end (or the point) forward; the rear one, rearward. Just thinking about it, at first it seemed to me that nothing would stop such an edge from cutting down into the water... But then, that doesn't happen with water skis, does it? (Why not?) Anyway, *if* there is a danger of that, then we can always add vertical up-standing edges to the skis (turning them into something like "trays"), which would then automagically become the second leg of a 'V-shape' when the ski is leaned.



It'd be "a planing c-oracle", eh? Well colour me green and call me Bede, but maybe I can get it sponsored from work... :-)
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New It's called 'countersteering'
And yes, it is how you steer a motorcycle. As Ashton said, you don't learn kinetics intellectually, but this one can be proved. Just get up to about 25 mph on a motorcycle, take one hand off the handlebars, and push the other side with an open palm. (I'm assuming you can catch it before everything falls over.) You will definitely lean in the direction of the bar you just pushed.

Found a good link [link|http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/Teaching/bicycles.html|here]. He says that the gyroscopic effect is negligible, although he is talking about a bicycle. Motorcycle wheels are quite a bit heavier.

And another link [link|http://www.survivalskills.clara.net/riding_skills_5.htm|here] focussing on motorcycles from an instructor who got tired of answering the question over and over.

I've also done the experiment with a bicycle tire. At the Science Museum in Cleveland and the Franklin Institure in Philly, they have an example of this. There's a rotating stool, like a bar stool, mounted to the floor. Nearby are several different-sized bike wheels with handles mounted on the axle, and a rotating drum you can use to get it spinning. The idea is to sit on the stool holding the spinning wheel upright, then turn it on its side. You start spinning surprisingly quickly. I can't imagine the force of a motocycle wheel/tire at any significant speed not making a difference.
We have to fight the terrorists as if there were no rules and preserve our open society as if there were no terrorists. -- [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/opinion/BIO-FRIEDMAN.html|Thomas Friedman]

PS: I want one of your water scooters, too. Oh, and the girl in the photo is on a rig that is towed behind a boat and allows a paraplegic to waterski. I've seen them used before.
New Nice links - and.. so That's how the girl's rig works!
That's clever of her - clearly then, her contraption offers a bit more stability during the crucial phase of coming up out of the water: training wheels for a water ski.

One exception to all of the above: Sidecars!

Vincent in particular, featured an eccentric cam on the (parallelogram girder-fork) linkage, so that rake/ thus trail could be altered with a wrench. While I have little experience with a sidehack, and none with the racing kinda uni-morphs.. you 'steer', not countersteer. Tends to freak out the newbie, coming off of solo. (Also vice versa, when one learns on a hack)

I also saw the Gamaunt 'leaning sidecar' in my youth, driven by the designer. In that scheme, where a parallelogram flex-linkage allows the car's lean to follow the bike's lean: you'd be back to counter-steering. (Alas, never got to try it) Note that certain of the Brit monster singles like the Panther, maybe Norton ES-2? featured usual telescopic fixed rake/trail such that - fine for sidehack work; squirrely when ridden solo.. One size does not fit all.

How odd that, even riders.. had some objections to author's explanation vs. "how they thought they were riding!"

Lastly, I am sure (!) that "the moving center" in us (by whatever name) operates much faster than does / can intellect: if you ever try to control even your car: by methodically applying forces to feet, hands, according to your er physics knowledge - you are apt to lose control (especially at speed). Corrections are 'instantaneous' / simultaneous, once that brain has trained-itself. On a motorcycle at speed, it is indeed a ballet of nuanced muscle pressures all around the body. Musicians describe similar exhilaration after a good performance as do cyclists - after clearing Bray Hill at the ton.

Nice you had a chance to find out for yourself Oh.. and survive that exhilaration-fix :-\ufffd


Ashton Geoff Duke
     Doesn't someone here do this? - (drewk) - (33)
         That's *intensely* annoying. - (CRConrad) - (32)
             Wing In Ground Effect - (cforde) - (30)
                 Then there's ... - (drewk) - (2)
                     GoodGawd - it lifts 540 TONS! - (Ashton) - (1)
                         Well they do have a plane ... - (drewk)
                 Oh, so *that's* what it is! - (CRConrad) - (26)
                     prior art - (cforde) - (1)
                         Naaah.... Where's the engine?!? :-) -NT - (CRConrad)
                     Dunno about 'handling' though.. - (Ashton) - (7)
                         One aspect of handling - (Ric Locke) - (6)
                             Gyroscopes? Don't got to show no steenkin Gyroscopes! - (Ashton) - (2)
                                 Don't got to show no steenkin Gyroscopes! - (Ric Locke) - (1)
                                     Still a gnat or two, but.. - (Ashton)
                             Didn't know that. But, I assume we can do without it? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                 It's called 'countersteering' - (drewk) - (1)
                                     Nice links - and.. so That's how the girl's rig works! - (Ashton)
                     uh ahem - (boxley) - (15)
                         You thinking James Bond? - (CRConrad) - (14)
                             Heh.. have to dig out some Vincent lore. - (Ashton)
                             nope, thinking nancy lake. - (boxley) - (1)
                                 Ah... She any relation of Ricki's? But: - (CRConrad)
                             Bombardier - (Ric Locke) - (10)
                                 Coupla points... - (CRConrad) - (9)
                                     Pivots - (Ric Locke) - (8)
                                         The Higher School of Aquatic Engineering. (Didn't go to it.) - (CRConrad) - (7)
                                             A land-based conundrum.. - (Ashton) - (6)
                                                 Metastability - (Ric Locke) - (5)
                                                     LRPD's eval: IWETHEY's Terrible Horde of Epithetic Yammerers - (Ashton) - (4)
                                                         Thought that was "Pathetic Yammerers" -NT - (Andrew Grygus) - (2)
                                                             It is - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                                                 LRPD be versatile as well as prescient.. - (Ashton)
                                                         Where's the skill? - (Ric Locke)
             *intensely* annoying. - (Ric Locke)

Worth getting into a flame war on the New York Times crossword blog.
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