Huh?

Post #18,087 by bepatient 11/13/01 2:54:33 PM Reply	Huh? OK, smartass, the reason is that I don't have the roughtly $20-$100Million dollars of my own money to buy^H^H^Hrun a campaign. I'm not of the landed gentry class, or the existing ruling class, or the billionaire biznez class necessary to get elected. You think these guys use their >own< money? And you say "being an opportunist and preying on fear"...pretty damned fine line between that and "reacting to the will of a frightened people" and definitely stated that way because you disagree with it...not because you feel that drastic times may indeed call for drastic measures. Might want to look at the polls son...the average joe doesn't seem to be nearly as pissed off about it as you are...and we can't govern based on outliers. And it appears that your initial premise is still that Ashcroft is an evil man bent on denying the American population of their constitutional rights...regardless of the consequences. The most egregious of these new measures will be tested and probably rejected by the SC, in time...the ACLU et al will make sure of that...just the same way they make sure that inmates have better living conditions than most of the free citizens in our major cities. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,103 by mmoffitt 11/13/01 3:51:14 PM Reply	We should conform to the herd mentality? >>Might want to look at the polls son...the average joe doesn't seem to be >>nearly as pissed off about it as you are...and we can't govern based on >>outliers. Outliers? You mean like those people who would not "sacrifice essential liberty for a little security"? Given the choice between the frightened, uneducated masses and Benjamin Franklin, I'll stay with Ben any time, any day, anywhere.
Post #18,121 by bepatient 11/13/01 4:26:55 PM Reply	Conform? You're governed by committee. Get used to it. (of >the people<, by >the people<, for >the people<) You can yell and scream...and when you're right...you'll be heard...because there are others who share your beliefs that, like you, will fight. BUT...to approach this situation as if Ashcroft is doing this soley because he is some evil, power hungry, rights denying lunatic is just as absurd as expecting that government can operate by acting upon the individual beliefs of its members...and not the collective will. And I said, the "most egregious of these new measures"...which should, I would hope, translate to you that I don't necessarily agree with them all either. In much the same vein, I don't agree with all of the policies of the group that will end up having many of these new policies declared unconstitutional. You need to temper yourself with a bit of reality. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,106 by mmoffitt 11/13/01 3:54:02 PM Reply	And another thing... I thought you did NOT like democracy? NOW you come out in support of "rule of the majority"? Where has this tendency toward democracy been since November 2000?
Post #18,116 by bepatient 11/13/01 4:20:34 PM Reply	Now >that< was funny. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,134 by Ashton 11/13/01 5:25:38 PM Reply	Er Beep: they use Corporate money. Umm - get it? And I suppose it's hard to fault.. waiting for Due-process and the climb to the USSC. And you are Patient - especially as you wait.. and we wait.. and all wait - for those Market Forces\ufffd to fix Billyco n' the CorpMeeja monopoly n' .. all that stuff. Ahhh.. it's wonderful when folks have stuff they Believe In. Yup Patience be a virtue alright. (If ya think that entropy and heat death: is a soon enough time frame for one's Model to work within..) ZZZzzzzzzz glorp Zxzzzzz :-\ufffd hell.. Be Patient! for all I care..
Post #18,222 by bepatient 11/14/01 9:37:39 AM Reply	Uh...yeah...I do Reality is a pain in the ass, isn't it? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,227 by mmoffitt 11/14/01 9:55:36 AM Reply	If you accept what they hand you, you deserve what you get.
Post #18,230 by bepatient 11/14/01 9:58:46 AM Reply	Who said anything about blind acceptance? Follow the bouncing thread./\\./\\./\\ You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,238 by mmoffitt 11/14/01 10:43:50 AM Reply	Last was restricted to your "Reality" post. Saying, "that's Reality" is acceptance.
Post #18,239 by bepatient 11/14/01 10:50:08 AM Reply	Hardly. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,314 by Ashton 11/14/01 5:25:03 PM Reply	Umm.. if this-all really were Reality\ufffd \ufffd \ufffd Wouldn't that make us all, nothing more than raw material for manufacture of McSoylent$ Green ? Oh ye of little aspiration Only fit for for micturation All Hail! the One True Corporation! Rue we then, discorporation Disneyland our Divination! Solyent Green our destination The Midas C/Greed (We got such a good price, we sold it All!)
Post #18,445 by jb4 11/15/01 3:54:16 PM 11/15/01 6:51:55 PM Reply	Yer damn RIGHT I think they use their own money! You think these guys use their >own< money? Yer damn Right!!! Representative from IL 10th district (Mark Kirk) just spent $10MM of his own money to buy^H^H^Hwin election from district. And he was chief-of-staff of retiring incumbent, so he shoulda been a shoe-in (had the incumbent's endorsement an all...). Overall, about $20MM-$23MM (depending on estimate) was spent by candidates in the Repo primary from their own pockets (NOTE: there were 10, count 'em...10, candidates in the primary.) Who was the guy who spent $100MM of own money to buy^H^H^Hrent^H^H^H^Hwin a recent senatorial election? Yeppir..We got us here the best damn guvmint money can buy! And don't act as if this is some sort of surprise. Disingenuousness doesn't fit you well. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...) Edited by jb4 Nov. 15, 2001, 06:51:55 PM EST Expand All History
Post #18,448 by bepatient 11/15/01 4:07:13 PM Reply	Ah...so.... ...you can show one or 2 examples and think that I'll believe they >all< do that. Riigghhtt. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,473 by Ashton 11/15/01 6:56:05 PM Reply	I'm too lazy to look up link and Name this official fallacy Another strategic subject change? But if you're gonna weasel on, "er it's just one or two who BUY their seat" - I think it's a lot more: In CA alone a few elections ago, One Silly Valley sleazoid spent big bux and lost; another ditto and got in. Insurance Commissioner Quackenbush is ex-officio but still in deep legal doo doo. We have the tycoon who just bought election in NY; more waiting - it works so well. One or three? Hardly. That you Can Buy a seat: is true and also a quite lesser problem than Corporations buying LOTS of seats. This makes the system massively BROKEN, in the particular and in the general. Even the 'personal fortunes' so-called, mostly derive from the Corporate accumulation of most wealth around - and that person's Corp role. But I guess You could call that: bizness as usual. Right? (Oh: and, the Market will correct All .. .. given enough .. .. .. t i m e) Right? Not to worry. {sigh} Belief is such an Interesting phenomenon. A.
Post #18,478 by bepatient 11/15/01 7:20:42 PM Reply	Why me? I simply point out that not everyone uses their own money and you go off on me again? Find another target You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,486 by Ashton 11/15/01 8:31:07 PM Reply	Because.. (in cartoon showing Sad Sack, a large cloud behind him with a Giant Hand protruding - about to thwack him on back of head.. Deep Voice saying:) You Piss Me Off.... Nah. Just trying to avoid what my mater taught me to avoid. Sorta like.. a foolish consistency is the Hobgoblin of.. something or other So can't help it - when I see such consistent patterns in otherwise intelligent folk, my early conditioning just kicks in (or to use the jargon most familiar) How's yer exception handling routine working? :=\ufffd (OK - not everybody uses their own money. Now about the ones who use Others' == Corporate money to buy seats ?? Remedies? Give up? False assertion?)
Post #18,494 by bepatient 11/15/01 9:41:56 PM Reply	All I did... ...if you would have bothered to follow along...is challenge the statement that all candidates used millions of their own money...something that you already know to be true (and so do I)... And for that, I get launched into about corporate interest in politics...an item which we already discussed...and I already pointed out that I agree with you that it needs to be changed. In other words...we've had the discussion...no need to bring it up again. If you'ld follow along instead of just reading my posts (keeping with the thread is goot (tm))..then you'd save yourself some typing and me the problem of telling you again that I agree with you already re: campaign financing. We don't agree in the corporation as the supreme evil...but on that we will probably never even get close. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,495 by Ashton 11/15/01 10:03:50 PM Reply	Well___OK___ demi-Supreme Evil then. What - no solutions ??
Post #18,496 by bepatient 11/15/01 10:23:39 PM Reply	42 oops...that would be the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything... Don't know if that covers Supreme (or even demi-) evil...I'll have to ask the mice. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,506 by Ashton 11/15/01 11:35:29 PM Reply	8\ufffd - It's always about Sex, in the End.
Post #18,534 by jb4 11/16/01 9:17:29 AM Reply	Challenging a red-herring...how quaint. And here I thought you passed high-school English. ...if you would have bothered to follow along...is challenge the statement that all candidates used millions of their own money...something that you already know to be true (and so do I)... [emphasis added] Of course not all candidates use their own money. That is self-obvious.....and had that been my original premise, we could have dispensed with this a long time ago. Now let's try debating the actual issue, and not create straw men. Reading is a skill. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,535 by bepatient 11/16/01 9:27:19 AM Reply	Nah... ...because I'll post to you and then have to deal with Ashton flying in from left field again. Besides, we're not horribly far apart on this point...and probably agree almost across the board... So its not really worth a debate. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,746 by jb4 11/19/01 9:26:19 AM Reply	OK, but as far as a Left Fielder goes... ...Ash is one of the more entertaining (Certainly better than anything the Cubs have come up with in the last...oh, say 2 decades...) And he's even occasionally enlightening (at least, he makes you think, don't he...) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,474 by jb4 11/15/01 6:57:08 PM Reply	Counterexamples? I see none. Unless you're gonna tell me that Joe Schlobtnik of West Bufu, Nebraska was successfully able to win the local dog catcher's race in an uncontested election without spending a dime.... The truth is you wouldn't believe ANYTHING anyone told you if you didn't want to...even if (especially if) it were a verifiable fact. Nosir, don't bother the Beepster with the facts...might just confuse the boy... would just sully up that oh-so-pristine already-made-up-mind of his, there... Riigghhtt. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,479 by bepatient 11/15/01 7:22:33 PM Reply	Everyone else. Or are you going to tell me that NOBODY has campaign fundraisers? No...that would be someone else's tactic. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,532 by jb4 11/16/01 9:11:28 AM Reply	Re: Everyone else. Bzzzzzt. Wrong answer. Thank you for playing and we have some lovely parting gifts... I guess everyone else doesn't inclued NYC's new billionaire mayor-elect, now does it? Your credibility-o-meter is sinking to an all-time low here...You might consider quitting while you still have some. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,537 by bepatient 11/16/01 9:43:14 AM Reply	Ok...your obvious counter... ...is that ALL politicians use their own money. Which is just as.."Bzzzt...wrong answer" So if you want to have a discussion...then dispense with the rediculous assertions. I never claimed >all< candidates did NOT use their own money...because some of them actually do. And out of the lot of them...I probably like those guys BETTER than the ones who take millions from special interests...especially the ones who take money from those special interests and all of a sudden change their position....and way more than the ones who take special interest money just for the money...with no intention of ever listening to that interests point of view. BUT...special interest money in itself is BAD. The fact that it takes millions to win a state seat is rediculous let alone the amount that it takes to compete in a federal election. Solution...who the hell knows...start with free and equal access to broadcast media...transportation, etc. And completely eliminate the fundraising tactics used by the RNC and DNC...and limit campaign contibutions to actual money from actual individuals. That would be a start... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,586 by Ashton 11/16/01 3:57:39 PM Reply	Wow! Beep: so ya got the germ of a Solution after all? ;-) ..like pryin teeeth outta a water buffalo, that. Seems you'd rather quote contrary orthodoxy forever - 'provin' it be Correct, than give us a possible Solution (to all the Idiotic stuff you eventually come around to sayin: IS Idiotic!) Kickin an screamin.. Scopes trial over and over and.. {sheesh} Now.. how does one poison the well of the well-addicted who write the rules for well-drinkin? I mean: Right. Here. in. River. City. (Aintcha got no original ideas Ay-tall, or is that heretical, automatic-F, in Advanced-Econ courses?) Ashton Sheesh
Post #18,589 by bepatient 11/16/01 4:22:59 PM Reply	Actually... ...all of the idiotic things I say are widely held (should I dare say "popular") positions...they're just not "popular" >here<...and especially not with >you<. Funny that. And what fun would it be around here if everyone just agreed with each other all of the time? I don't see anyone >else< offering solutions either...just spouting opposing drivel to counter my own. btw...to get of econ I had to come up with an original idea....just one...which then had to be beat to death for 50 pages or so;-) You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,593 by Ashton 11/16/01 5:39:29 PM Reply	OK - it's time to come Clean. So then.. but er seriously I can believe you had to come up with one idea, maybe even a few. Don't doubt your credentials or your (basic if somewhat er FOCUSSED) intelligence ;-) But it seems to my (basic if somewhat less-FOCUSSED) intelligence: You present your material cut & dried and virtually from some evanescent Model of it all, clearly Believing same to ~"be adequate to the task at hand - Any Task", you imply - regularly (no?) yet: There appears damn little in this model which is about &$%@$ error correcting! except that tired old ... er umm see? The Market Forces will correct.. ... .... [no time scale deemed remotely important for Theorists] Now.. just supposing this model might suffer from the limitations of other G.U.T.s hatched yet or embryonic, and thus - it's recursive error-correction can only deal with $$&#$$ Numerical Errors and Not: with the social and life consequences* of deeming the Model to perfectly map the Territory some of us call Life! - Just presuming this, as a what-if, say: well, that seems to be where the trouble always.. begins. Y'know? :-) Self-referents to a model which not merely a few question as being real World-related - inevitably shall produce the sorts of counters you natter about. Natter <> Natter both sides. A mercantile model of all life is inherently doomed to suck Planetary-sized chunks of Academic Turgidity: that is a Law of Nature\ufffd. (to use the technical terms you insist upon) Maybe you have no extra-Model ideas? Maybe you are supremely intra-Model comfy ?? and do not wish to explore any possible omissions, irrelevancies, er just plain self-contained-BS. Then simply: admit your addiction, please. We tolerate alcoholics, Windoze purveyors, Alley-OOP, even the occasional Language-murderer; could the Church of Economists be .. much worse? We understand! {sob} about compulsive behavior.. why there's a 12-step Model near you (!) {uncontrollable sobbing} (However.. AFAIK: only the Sacred-LRPD \ufffd possesses such obvious Sentience as to deserve That degree of Worship.) Clearer now? Ashton Model-agnostic for the duration. Theology for the Converted only. Life: for the ever-skeptical of homo-sap models du jour. \ufffd
Post #18,595 by bepatient 11/16/01 6:05:54 PM Reply	I certainly understand >that< aspect... ...in that while you complain about "the box" and wish for us to get outside of "the box"...I continually frustrate you by discussing things from inside "the box". Could it be that I think "this box" is the right box? For its flaws and weaknesses...its currently the best "box" to be in? And so...I focus on making adjustments to "the box". Would I like to discuss the design of the "better box"? Sure, Ashton, I really would. I would like to discuss how we can create such a box. Many have thought about the creation of that better box...tried and failed. The principle source of that failure is that these "boxers" believed that they could change basic human nature..as long as "the people" could see the promise inherent in the "better box." So...if you want to hop out of the box Ash...and discuss how we start the revolution...and discuss what it is that we are actually trying to achieve...that would be great. But the current tactic of pompous disbelief in my position that the current box is not so horrible that it needs to be thrown away outright...with no counterpoint and no offer of discussion of the other options is...well...just as disappointing to me as my positions appear to be to you. And...as for your >thoughts< on what I believe >market forces< can and cannot do...it is extremely possible that I have made a grave error in assuming that you knew that the >market forces< are actually the cumulative effect of the actions of individual human beings. Individual human beings that I appear to give alot more credit to that you...as I feel that they can impact their own destiny...while you appear to think somewhat less of them...en masse. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,599 by Ashton 11/16/01 8:12:27 PM Reply	OK. I see it's about Religious Faith in [Boxes] of any kind. I'll see what I can do about meta-Boxes, because I might already realize what a meta-Box signifies. Seems you Box-people are likely to do in the entire Golden Goose while... endlessly tinkering with those 20/5 tail lights.. as yer fav [Mindless Numbers]-Box mires actual human beings deeper into the La Brea of [Neatly-Boxed-Results] o O _ 0 _ _ \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd \ufffd . . . . . . _______________ ////////////////////// ..sometimes words fail, about Boxes n'Believers.
Post #18,601 by bepatient 11/16/01 8:19:32 PM Reply	Well since you continually seem to be missing my point... ...why don't you actually give me yours? Box, socio-political system, organization of the human race on the planet...explain? How do you propose that the human race save itself, support itself, continue to exist without some formal aspect of commerce and governance? And if the race does indeed >need< these things to survive...being a social animal...what would you propose to be the ideal system...keeping the pyramid of needs intact and allowing for that pesky human trait called avarice. Inquring minds do, indeed, want to know. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,613 by Steve Lowe 11/17/01 12:18:50 AM Reply	This mini thread Deserves its own, no? Assuming it goes further, of course. ----- Steve
Post #18,645 by Ashton 11/17/01 4:29:53 PM Reply	Impasse. Future Fork. Assigned task is self-cancelling. BeeP appears to think that economic models are the (~ both 'necessary and sufficient'?) tools for making the kinds of overall-life decisions we are seen to use them for. While I grant their limited utility in keeping track of things like humongous budgets / the 'measurement' of how successfully the Ad campaign is bringing in new money, and several other mercantile concerns - I assert that overreliance upon these models, extrapolation of their 'meaning' way too far across the boundary beyond economics - into the category of "social quality of life" - is a demonstrable (I say Major) cause of the current trend of income distribution: concentration amongst fewer and fewer. Other consequences could fill many books (and have). I say that - it is not about refining the present model. Again. Numbers cannot measure well (if at all) the egregious social consequences of ever mixing pure numerical constructs and real life. (Though the Econ Model, if it's any good - Can continue to provide its limited utility, whatever changes are made to the legal constraints as diminish, correct the growth of monopoly). BeeP's response to my criticism: ~Show me your better (economic) model (!) Tinker with the Status Quo.. a little more !! {sigh} I guess the concept of a meta-Model escaped comprehension. Since I don't believe we Can create an economic model which could address these orthogonal consequences of All purely economic theory: the condition is unfulfillable. An economic-mind is a terrible thing to waste. I'll see if I can construct a post-Revolutionary Social Contract. Sometime. Meta-Models are a bit harder than screwing with velocity of money and all those precise-sounding (but familiar!) chestnuts. (You sure as hell can't transcend the inherent limitations of The Economic Model with: The New Economic Model!) That's how we got where we are today: homogenization, increasing monopolization of all commodity supply, Billys n'Ballys growing like Amanita mushrooms. No represenation for 'workers' - except moving from one Corp to another Corp = same rulez. No healthcare, schools in shambles, prison building a Growth industry, yada yada. Ugliness all around; little commercial boxes all with the Same Logo\ufffd and: The Mall replaces living. (Shopping as life?) Add ones I missed here ____. E.O.T.(hread) - Need new forum: Rescuing the Murican Social Contact Y2K (from the Economists?) Ashton (Never mind; it won't be Popular where it matters - where the Power resides. It Won't be on any ballots Here! Blood first, I suspect.)
Post #18,647 by bepatient 11/17/01 4:52:39 PM Reply	No...that was NOT my response. BeeP's response to my criticism: ~Show me your better (economic) model (!) Tinker with the Status Quo.. a little more !! {sigh} That was most decidedly not my response. My challenge was... How do you propose that the human race save itself, support itself, continue to exist without some formal aspect of commerce and governance? I'd say thats as far from "tinkering" with the status quo there is. Thats asking you to explain...(en anglais, s'il vous plait) this >ideal< that you have that you continually >sigh< about me not understanding. Then..we can debate a plan to take us there...or at least debate its possibility of existance. But to continually play the critic to my posts without >EVER< offering any alternative but to sigh at my lack of understanding and my decided lack of application of my intellectual capacity is getting pretty fucking old. Lets talk about what >you< want...ok? Thoughts, ambitions, etc...what is it that we are doing wrong that your ideal would make right? What do we need to do to feed everyone, cloth everyone, educate everyone and allow everyone to persue those things wwhcih will keep them happy 24/7/52/100? Until you can offer me an alternative to even discuss...I'd say critiquing my thoughts on how to fix what we have is a tad premature, no? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,650 by Ashton 11/17/01 5:45:25 PM Reply	I'll concede your phrasing there. And raise you. Since it Was your phrasing there. :-) I'll split the labor with you, of playing Rousseau (Anglais ou Franc\ufffdise, un peu?). I'd think we'd have to ~agree first on the dimensions and some specifics of: what IS 'wrong' / dysfunctional now - before riding off in all philosophical directions toward YAN ---> Utopia. (After having perused the sourcebook on Dystopias, in recent weeks - I know better Why I do not believe in the attainability of Models (always appreciated why that Was folly, just know better Why, now)). Let's see what Your list of defects is, since you accuse me of assuming you have none. I cannot summarize the general case of The World and All, except as philosophical masturbation. Useless - too high a scale for homo-saps; we lack the referents. I never imagined you didn't have such a list, just - see your main posts as ever supporting, defending the present schemes and especially: Econ rubrics across the spectrum of their consequences. (Note: that is my impression of the content of many posts, not an opinion of 'what you might actually think' = that rarely emerges AFAICR) Tit for tat, oh weaver of Devils Advocacy from safe neutrality.. Over. Duplicating this at top, per request above, to escape any possible right-shift: Hey! a few others might have ideas in pretty little heads (?) It's too Big an issue to be left to mere Economists or humble Curmudgeons ;-)
Post #60,250 by pwhysall 10/30/02 2:00:02 PM Reply	Entropy just went up. And it couldn't have happened to a nicer physicist :-) Scott: Imma hunt you down and kill you twice for this :) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #60,307 by Ashton 10/30/02 6:19:36 PM Reply	Entropy decreased. So then.. where were all them Solution Providers and their lists? Do I gotta work it All out fer youse guys? Can lead a horse to manna but.. Conclusion - *nobody has any ideas. Ergo, Entropy is decreased; Answer Unearthed: World of Duality remains in perpetual low-scale psychic noise (that 3\ufffdK (3?) microwave background). Build-from or die-within. * or is supremely disinterested in offering same == same effect. Ashton Solution Providers we provide the trough. customer must drink. :-\ufffd Hint: "We put all our politicians in prison as soon as they're elected. Don't you?" "Why?" "It saves time." -Terry Pratchett- via Silverlock

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