May be it's a hindsight thing

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Post #178,489

Picture of Arkadiy

10/8/04 3:47:36 PM

May be it's a hindsight thing

but it seems to me that it took me less time and less effort to understand C, C++ and STL that it takes me to understand Perl. My "*shudder*" was not based on Todd's code, but rather on your code. As you say yourself, in Perl you have to be aware of the context at all times, and it's hard to stay aware because most of the time it "just works". In C++ I don't have such problem. May be because it became a second nature to me so long ago. Then again, in Smalltalk, I don't have such problem either. Probably because those languages don't try to magically do what I mean in most cases.

--

... a reference to Presidente Arbusto.
-- [link|http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001417.html|Geoffrey K. Pullum]

Post #178,520

10/8/04 6:13:45 PM

It could be many things

I know that when I learned to program in Perl, the course seemed much smoother than when I set out to learn other languages later. But then I realized that there were several factors:

I misremember how long I took to learn Perl. It feels like I picked up the book and was writing it fluently a few weeks later. But I know that there were important parts of the language that I learned a lot later.

When I was a baby in Perl, I tried to do baby-like things with it and succeeded. Now when I look at new languages, I over-reach. I immediately try to do things that I know how to do in Perl, and don't know enough to do them.

When I learned Perl there was a constant feeling of accomplishment because I didn't know any way to easily do what I just learned. In other languages that sense is gone because whatever I just learned, I already knew how to do.

As for context, I think that it is important to know about context, but ideally it sinks into being a reflex. It's handled by the same part of your brain that handles grammar and knows when, for instance, you have to switch from past to present to future tense. Certainly I am not conciously aware of thinking about context, though I can tell you what is going on with it at any given moment.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Perl frustrations - (tuberculosis) - (45) - Oct. 7, 2004, 03:55:53 PM EDT

Simple solution - (ben_tilly) - (10) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:31:13 PM EDT

Bleh. - (admin) - (3) - Oct. 7, 2004, 04:42:49 PM EDT

That's because you approached it wrong - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:22:57 PM EDT

I'm gradually warming up to it - (deSitter) - Oct. 7, 2004, 09:08:18 PM EDT

That should be in the man page. - (static) - Oct. 8, 2004, 02:17:42 AM EDT

Is this a sort of typecasting? - (tuberculosis) - (2) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:36:33 PM EDT

It's a reference -NT - (Simon_Jester) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:00:50 PM EDT

Sort of - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:10:14 PM EDT

Interesting.... - (Simon_Jester) - (2) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:58:41 PM EDT

The solution would have its own problems - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:27:50 PM EDT

<bow> thank you. -NT - (Simon_Jester) - Oct. 7, 2004, 11:14:47 PM EDT

THank you for stepping on this rake - (Arkadiy) - (33) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:20:48 PM EDT

He was overcomplicating it - (ben_tilly) - (32) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:30:04 PM EDT

Well, maybe - (tuberculosis) - (17) - Oct. 7, 2004, 05:43:24 PM EDT

Agreed - (ben_tilly) - (16) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:12:17 PM EDT

Agree its a mistake - (tuberculosis) - (15) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:36:09 PM EDT

Same here. - (admin) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:45:32 PM EDT

Right - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 7, 2004, 06:56:48 PM EDT

Shame about the inertia. Python's design is "least surprise" - (FuManChu) - (12) - Oct. 7, 2004, 10:02:43 PM EDT

When I started with Perl... - (ben_tilly) - (11) - Oct. 7, 2004, 10:53:12 PM EDT

On Perl 6 - (pwhysall) - (3) - Oct. 8, 2004, 01:53:55 AM EDT

Re: On Perl 6 - (Yendor) - Oct. 8, 2004, 08:37:56 AM EDT

I had a nice response to this typed up - (ben_tilly) - (1) - Oct. 8, 2004, 12:54:37 PM EDT

Many thanks for that - (pwhysall) - Oct. 9, 2004, 02:53:04 AM EDT

We're having a little brown bag on Ruby - (tuberculosis) - (4) - Oct. 8, 2004, 12:46:50 PM EDT

Re: We're having a little brown bag on Ruby - (JimWeirich) - (3) - Oct. 11, 2004, 06:55:34 AM EDT

Shhh! Anonymous Todd works at some other... - (CRConrad) - Oct. 11, 2004, 07:36:30 AM EDT

I might have been there - (tuberculosis) - (1) - Oct. 11, 2004, 12:55:46 PM EDT

Re: I might have been there - (JimWeirich) - Oct. 11, 2004, 01:14:57 PM EDT

Re: strict -- have you seen pychecker? - (FuManChu) - (1) - Oct. 8, 2004, 01:02:20 PM EDT

No I hadn't, thanks - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 8, 2004, 01:08:02 PM EDT

BTW Arkadiy, I'm still waiting for a response - (ben_tilly) - (13) - Oct. 8, 2004, 12:57:52 PM EDT

I am not saying it's shorter in C... - (Arkadiy) - (10) - Oct. 8, 2004, 03:22:09 PM EDT

And now for my real comment - (ben_tilly) - (2) - Oct. 8, 2004, 03:34:09 PM EDT

May be it's a hindsight thing - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Oct. 8, 2004, 03:47:36 PM EDT

It could be many things - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 8, 2004, 06:13:45 PM EDT

I don't know - multimap - (Simon_Jester) - (6) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:22:32 AM EDT

Re: I don't know - multimap - (Arkadiy) - (5) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:17:47 PM EDT

Why the worry about efficiency? - (ben_tilly) - (4) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:25:52 PM EDT

I worry about efficiency - (Arkadiy) - (1) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:30:44 PM EDT

Ah - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:59:07 PM EDT

C vs Perl - efficiency - untrue for me - (broomberg) - (1) - Oct. 9, 2004, 12:41:13 PM EDT

Point - but you may want to rebenchmark - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 9, 2004, 01:11:47 PM EDT

Here's a smalltalk version - (tuberculosis) - (1) - Oct. 8, 2004, 06:16:21 PM EDT

Yes, think of a reference as a pointer - (ben_tilly) - Oct. 8, 2004, 06:43:04 PM EDT

You can put makeup on a pig. It's still a pig.
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