I guess it's very POV specific. Makes it hard to agree.

Post #17,793 by static 11/11/01 7:04:51 PM Reply	I guess it's very POV specific. Makes it hard to agree. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #17,794 by CRConrad 11/11/01 7:13:53 PM Reply	Nope, it's quite simple, non-POV-specific, and universal: Religion has nothing to do with science. Period. That's it. And since that is a statement of fact, there's nothing to "agree" about; to "disagree" would be what is more commonly known as 'being wrong'. Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #17,803 by ben_tilly 11/11/01 8:43:03 PM Reply	That is going too far First of all a thousand years ago, much of what we today consider the realm of science, was the realm of religion. A large part of the conflict between religion and science is due to the fact that religion was there first, then was displaced by growing abilities to seek scientific explanations. But the starting place for those scientific explanations was the existing religious theories. But in the 1600's in Europe a curious religious view arose. That view was that a perfect God would create a world which did not need ongoing tinkering to keep it running. With some conflicts (not everyone believed this of course), this led people to look for purely mechanistic explanations of all kinds of things. And this view was one of the things that got what we know today as science going. And then a few centuries later, a peculiar thing happened. Some people looked at all of this science, and took the fact that God was not involved as evidence that God was a superfluous theory, in fact God did not exist. There is a supreme irony here. Discoveries made by devout Christians like Isaac Newton, which were possible because of theories of how a perfect God would act, became evidence that there was no God!? However the kinds of explanations sought in science, the belief that things are explainable, etc, are themselves more than somewhat religious. And the sense that there is a perfect order to be found if we just know how to look right is a direct inheritance from the religious beliefs of early sciences. So religion and science have a lot of connections. You just need to know where to find them... Cheers, Ben
Post #17,861 by CRConrad 11/12/01 10:16:49 AM Reply	Sigh... Bend over backwards in your own posts; dont tack... ...your cringe-obatics onto mine, please. Sure, the origins of religion and science have a lot in common. (Hey, both can be said to grow straight out of the basic question "How does the world work?"). And sure, lots of scientists have been, and still are, religious people; and lots of religious people have been, and still are, scientists (because people will be people, and our prejudices are among the last things we ever want to give up). And, suuure, the "Absent Watchmaker" theory might be a way to reconcile religious sentiment and scientific observation. But, apart from that ridiculously contrived William-of-Ockham-is-choking-on-his-beard -style longshot -- which explains absolutely nothing more than the same model without the Blind Tinkerer, but exists only to preserve an otherwise-too-obviously ludicrous superstition -- the content of the religious cosmological model has absolutely fuck-all to do with the content of current scientific theory and observations. Which, for reasons that are hopefully obvious when you read the preceding monstrum of a sentence, is expressed as "religion has nothing to do with science" in the common vernacular. (One would have thought most people could grasp that simplification pretty much immediately, and wouldn't have to go off on tangents about the origin of philosophical speculation...) So please, Ben, let my posts stand as the statements of general principle they're intended as, OK? You can bend over backwards to appease the Jeezmoids in threads of your own, or in replies direct to them. The Tillster: And then a few centuries later, a peculiar thing happened. Some people looked at all of this science, and took the fact that God was not involved as evidence that God was a superfluous theory, in fact God did not exist. Yeah, 'xackly... But what's so "peculiar" about that?!? Perfectly valid scientific reasoning, isn't it? There is a supreme irony here. Discoveries made by devout Christians like Isaac Newton, which were possible because of theories of how a perfect God would act, became evidence that there was no God!? Yup. Life (and history) is ironic, sometimes. So what? (Just look whom you're talking to: "Christian" -- Ha!) R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #17,953 by ben_tilly 11/12/01 7:11:11 PM Reply	Reasonableness is in the eye of the beholder A common intellectual trap is to confuse that which we happen to believe with the epitome of logic and reasonableness. When it comes to religion, all sides tend to do that. Here are a series of sayings, going from ones we agree on to ones we are likely to differ on sharply. The cosmology laid out by fundamentalist Christianity is discredited by science, and is completely unconnected in content. Many scientists, both past and present, have been strongly motivated by their religious beliefs. When you add in scientists with quasi-religious beliefs (for instance beliefs that many physicists hold about the existence of a GUT), this number goes up sharply. Science's foundation was made possible by a number of religious and quasi-religious beliefs. There are areas of the human experience, starting with the question of how conciousness works, which are unaddressed by science and which are probably unaddressable by science. (Note, science can address questions about what a person will do, what they will report, etc. I don't believe it can ever address the feeling that you exist.) There are many religious people who believe that the sense of self arises from having a soul granted by God. If you believe this, then God is not a superfluous assumption. Atheism is not a logical consequence of science and the scientific method. Science may lead us to reject a variety of religious beliefs. But it does not address several questions which are central to science. Now as I say, I think you are likely to disagree with my final statements. But before you proceed to lecture and disagree, I should point out that I have a pretty decent handle on how science works. The position that I have laid out above is one that I have actually thought about quite a bit, and it is what I have concluded despite the fact that the conclusion runs counter to my own gut beliefs. (I am, after all, an atheist.) Fire away if you wish. But I think I will let this thread sit with this post. I don't really have any new points that I can think of to make on this topic... Cheers, Ben
Post #17,990 by Brandioch 11/12/01 11:18:11 PM Reply	My take. #1. Science cannot disprove the existance of any god. #2. Science cannot prove the existance of any god. This is because science is only capable of measuring reproducable phenomena. !BUT! Science can show that certain events could not have happened without divine interference. Such as the world wide flood of the Bible. Which is the point I usually diverge from the religious ones. Anything can be claimed, with divine intervention. At which point, I don't see the sense of discussing "science" with them.
Post #17,909 by tablizer 11/12/01 1:44:43 PM Reply	Creation as a scientific theory I think that "intelligent creation" could be considered a "scientific theory". It is certainly a possibility that has not been completely ruled out. However, the scientific evidence for it is not very strong. If you put the "weaker condenders" in one part of the text book, then you have to be fair to put them in ALL parts of the book, otherwise it would be pandering to religion, which is against the consitution. Filling all portions with "weaker contenders" would make for a confusing textbook. BTW, how do creationists justify foot bones in wales? One theory is "software reuse". However, that would imply that God did not have enuf time to "do it right" and had to take shortcuts. "Whales still have DOS code in them". ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #17,919 by Silverlock 11/12/01 2:42:37 PM Reply	But how does the Great Turtle move? Oh, that's right. Creation "science" is only scientific if it's christian. Personally, I like the Norse explanation. "Ymir slept, falling into a sweat. Under his left arm there grew a man and a woman. And one of his legs begot a son with the other. This was the beginning of the frost ogres." Much more entertaining than "Let there be light." -------------------------- How to mangle the truth; Have it reported by any major U.S. media outlet.
Post #17,939 by Brandioch 11/12/01 4:57:28 PM Reply	Waiting for Val. Did I mention that Valhalla sounds so much more fun than Heaven or Hell?
Post #17,971 by bepatient 11/12/01 8:34:38 PM Reply	In the beginning, there was this turtle... ...and he was big...and he had 2 balls...one was the sun...the other the moon... Could Mr Ah-Clem please report to the hospitatlity shelter...thank you! Dr. Memory... Back to the shadows again! You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #17,972 by bepatient 11/12/01 8:34:52 PM 11/12/01 11:05:00 PM Reply	Or was it.. a catfish? You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Nov. 12, 2001, 11:03:20 PM EST Edited by bepatient Nov. 12, 2001, 11:05:00 PM EST Expand All History
Post #18,020 by jb4 11/13/01 8:57:08 AM Reply	I was hoping there was at least... ...one other refugee from the 70's still alive on this forum. jb4 (I just fade my voice like this and cue the organist....)
Post #18,064 by bepatient 11/13/01 12:18:17 PM Reply	Check your PBS listings for end November, early December ...for there will be a special unlike any other... The Doctor is in! ==== Ok...back to playing with my anxious android, Chucko... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,072 by jb4 11/13/01 1:44:28 PM Reply	WWWWWOOOOWWWWW!! I'll keep my eyes peeled...And lemme know if you see it first (I'll do the same...) jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,088 by bepatient 11/13/01 2:56:52 PM 11/13/01 2:58:29 PM Reply	I already have it programmed to tape :-) And several strategically placed reminders (with alarms on) to remind me to have a blank in the machine :-) PS: The special is 90 minutes...but Philly has a live 90 minute lead in...so its 3 hours total... Thats shoes for industry for ya! You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient] Edited by bepatient Nov. 13, 2001, 02:58:29 PM EST Expand All History
Post #18,145 by Ashton 11/13/01 6:28:17 PM Reply	If ya think of it BeeP, please give a shout later.. What with reduced attention span and all, and creeping NewsFlash paralysis and everything on our minds.. and the Betles breaking up and What was I talking about? Damn..
Post #18,223 by bepatient 11/14/01 9:40:47 AM Reply	I shall try to remember... ...thats it! Dr. Memory! Well its the bees and spiders again... You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,228 by CRConrad 11/14/01 9:56:57 AM Reply	"Deep in December, it's nice to remember..." [link\|http://w1.871.telia.com/~u87125666/lyrics/try2rem.htm\|"...The fire of September"]? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #18,323 by Ashton 11/14/01 6:25:06 PM Reply	Damn CRC.. Your wacko associative nexus appears to be wired almost as randomly as mine .. poor baby. Ah.. fond memories from days of innocence - All I Want for Christmas is bin-Laden's Teeth I Saw Mommy Dissing Santa's Claws (why did he take off his suit, though?) Chess Nuts Roasting on an Open Pyre ..and of course the song written for epicurean motorcyclists, Me and My Shadow Ok OK - I'll go
Post #18,329 by Meerkat 11/14/01 7:01:17 PM Reply	Afghan Hell, Afghan Hell, Bombing all the way... O what fun, it is to drive, the Taleban away, Hey! Oh dear. On and on and on and on, and on and on and on goes John.
Post #18,434 by jb4 11/15/01 2:08:16 PM Reply	So.......when is it??? jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #18,438 by bepatient 11/15/01 2:34:21 PM Reply	Oh...alright... [link\|http://www.firesigntheater.com/weirdly/cities.html\|Find the listing here for a city near you]. Dr. Memory? Close B clothes mode! You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #18,469 by jb4 11/15/01 6:43:36 PM Reply	Thank you...So marked! jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #17,979 by ben_tilly 11/12/01 9:10:55 PM Reply	The Turtle Moves! A central saying in Terry Pratchett's hilarious book, Small Gods. Cheers, Ben

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