For Owl

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

back off? What did I say that was offensive? I'm not Ross, and you're projecting him on to me is not my problem.

I'm not trying to do that, I'm just very tense and uptight right now. As to what you said was offensive, I was offended that you all won't drop it with me. I define the original freedom as what the pilgrims came for, and those things I have. As for other freedoms, freedom from government control, freedom of privacy, etc etc, those are entirely different to me than the original Freedom. I said I didn't want to revisit it, yet you keep hammering me with it. And I don't think that's fair.

Those things don't mean you're free. If you think they do mean you're free, then you don't understand the concept of freedom.

I told you, I understand it to be what the pilgrims came for. Historical freedom, if you will.

If you don't like it, filter me. It still doesn't make your complacency about this any less dangerous.

And it offended me that you call me complacent, when I'm anything but.

Edit: I looked up the word complacent, it means unconcerned, which I'm not, it means not worried, which I'm definitely not, it means satisfied, which I'm not, and it means eager to go along with or please someone, which is something I rarely do, just go along with something to please someone.

I'm sorry I'm losing it in here, but I'm not coping with this conversation right now... and that's the whole problem, I'm not up for coping with it.

And I don't know why I'm so bad for venting in FQ,(where I thought was), about my week. Others do it, others talk about bad things, I just lost it and did. So what, why would that make me different from anyone else? Sometimes you all are PROUD of the people who flame in FQ. I know it's wrong, and I'm sorry, but as I said, I'm human.

So that's how you offended me ok?

Nightowl >8#

Edit: cleaned up spelling, added definition, and corrected location of post.

we have to give up some of our freedom for security and then hope the security works. Invasion of privacy seems to be an issue here.

Being an ex-mental patient I get used to losing my freedom. Yet whatever people do to me, my mind is still free, even if I am locked up in a room with freedoms taken away from me. They can break my body, but they cannot break my spirit (or mind).

Leaders are a bit of an idiot, both Bush and Kerry are idiots, in a mental contest between Bush, Kerry, and Gump, Gump would win. In the USA, management is promoted by failure, the bigger the mistakes the bigger the office or position they get. Those that are competant get "the treatment" and are forced to quit or given a creative discharge with bogus documentation saying how bad a worker they are which is nothing but a bunch of creative writing (aka lies). I lost my freedom to life, liberty, and the pursute of happiness when my career was ruined, they used my illnesses against me. Now, like Orr, I was shot down enough times that I took a life-raft to Switzerland (Disability) until I can plan my next move (college). :)

Post #175,600 by pwhysall 9/22/04 7:02:57 AM Reply	For Owl Oh yeah, you're REALLY free: [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/22/capps_lite_secure_flight/\|http://www.theregist...te_secure_flight/] Hint. Freedom is about more than just being able to watch TV and drink beer unmolested. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,648 by Nightowl 9/22/04 11:24:23 AM Reply	Not going there again I've already explained what I consider freedom to be, and it doesn't need repeating. Have a good day, Peter. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #175,652 by jake123 9/22/04 11:30:19 AM Reply	Do you know why people are pointing this out over and over again? It's because people like you are dangerous to me. I tend to speak my mind, and I will call our leaders idiots and even dangerous when I think they are. Your complacency makes it more likely over time that I will be punished for it. Should people be punished for that? --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #175,655 by Nightowl 9/22/04 11:35:06 AM Reply	Give me a break over and over again? Yes, because they refuse to take what I'm saying literally. I didn't say I was free from all the stupid stuff you've all been spouting about. I EXPLAINED what I was FREE to do, and I AM. It's because people like you are dangerous to me. I tend to speak my mind, and I will call our leaders idiots and even dangerous when I think they are. If you think I'm dangerous for my thinking, you're sadly mistaken. I also call our leaders IDIOTS and DANGEROUS. I feel exactly like most people do about BUSH, REGARDLESS of FEELING FREE under MY DESCRIPTION! Your complacency makes it more likely over time that I will be punished for it. BULLSHIT! I have no fucking complacency! You're taking things I'm saying and twisting them. I do NOT trust the government anymore than any of you. That has nothing to do with the actual physical FREEDOMS I have! Ross already pissed me off beyond reason last night, please back off. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #175,657 by jake123 9/22/04 11:39:52 AM Reply	Why should I back off? What did I say that was offensive? I'm not Ross, and you're projecting him on to me is not my problem. Those things don't mean you're free. If you think they do mean you're free, then you don't understand the concept of freedom. If you don't like it, filter me. It still doesn't make your complacency about this any less dangerous. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #175,666 by Nightowl 9/22/04 11:54:50 AM 9/22/04 12:25:34 PM Reply	Oh man, it didn't even MAKE it to FQ.... (sigh) And now I lost the stupid post.... so it won't. I'm sorry everyone, just please let me alone for a little while ok? Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:18:51 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:25:34 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,669 by jake123 9/22/04 11:56:22 AM Reply	You know what? I have bad days and even bad weeks all the time. It's called Life. However, I'm mature, so I don't take it out on those around me. My opinion of you has just dropped a LOT in the last hour. --\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \n Kingston Ontario Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #175,679 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:04:49 PM 9/22/04 12:27:37 PM Reply	Re: You know what? If your opinion drops of me because I, like anyone else, CAN be pushed to a limit where I want to scream, or where I vent in the FQ (I thought I had)... not at anyone in particular... note it said EVERYONE, I'm sorry, but I'm just human, and even I can only take so much. Nightowl >8# Edit: Sorry, I thought I vented in the FQ. My bad. "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:10:21 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:27:37 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,691 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:26:31 PM Reply	I'm mature too But I'm also human, and all humans have a breaking point. I'm sorry Jake. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #175,673 by pwhysall 9/22/04 11:59:42 AM Reply	You're warning me what? Seriously, what are you warning me about? I've had the mother of all bad summers. Do you see me taking it out on people here? No, you don't. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,683 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:08:11 PM 9/22/04 12:28:45 PM Reply	I'm not taking it out on anyone Or at least I'm trying not to, which is why I (THOUGHT I) went into FQ and addressed the whole board. Edit: Crap, I THOUGHT I was in FQ. I still haven't gotten this jump thing right. I know you all have some consideration for people when they are going through stuff, and I needed to vent, so I do it in FQ, I was hoping you might all give me the same consideration you give one another when maybe someone is being pushed too far... I'm sorry if it looks like I'm trying to take it out on someone. I'm simply trying NOT to do that to any one person....which was why I vented in FQ. Nightowl >8# Edit: Corrected which forum I thought I was posting in "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:12:14 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:21:55 PM EDT Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 12:28:45 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,687 by ben_tilly 9/22/04 12:17:49 PM Reply	Peter's right I'd be willing to make a large bet that he's been going through far more heavy stuff lately than you have. Cheers, Ben About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra
Post #175,686 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:17:24 PM 9/22/04 3:38:15 PM Reply	Re: Why should I back off? What did I say that was offensive? I'm not Ross, and you're projecting him on to me is not my problem. I'm not trying to do that, I'm just very tense and uptight right now. As to what you said was offensive, I was offended that you all won't drop it with me. I define the original freedom as what the pilgrims came for, and those things I have. As for other freedoms, freedom from government control, freedom of privacy, etc etc, those are entirely different to me than the original Freedom. I said I didn't want to revisit it, yet you keep hammering me with it. And I don't think that's fair. Those things don't mean you're free. If you think they do mean you're free, then you don't understand the concept of freedom. I told you, I understand it to be what the pilgrims came for. Historical freedom, if you will. If you don't like it, filter me. It still doesn't make your complacency about this any less dangerous. And it offended me that you call me complacent, when I'm anything but. Edit: I looked up the word complacent, it means unconcerned, which I'm not, it means not worried, which I'm definitely not, it means satisfied, which I'm not, and it means eager to go along with or please someone, which is something I rarely do, just go along with something to please someone. I'm sorry I'm losing it in here, but I'm not coping with this conversation right now... and that's the whole problem, I'm not up for coping with it. And I don't know why I'm so bad for venting in FQ,(where I thought was), about my week. Others do it, others talk about bad things, I just lost it and did. So what, why would that make me different from anyone else? Sometimes you all are PROUD of the people who flame in FQ. I know it's wrong, and I'm sorry, but as I said, I'm human. So that's how you offended me ok? Nightowl >8# Edit: cleaned up spelling, added definition, and corrected location of post. "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown). Edited by Nightowl Sept. 22, 2004, 03:38:15 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #175,688 by ChrisR 9/22/04 12:21:28 PM Reply	Original Freedom In the North, the original Freedom was centered around Religious practices. In the South, it was centered around Economic practices - which for some reason always gets left out of discussions about freedom - showing how little economic freedom we have left.
Post #175,662 by pwhysall 9/22/04 11:53:03 AM Reply	It's not just about physical freedom And that is what you signally fail to understand. That's OK, but please do not proceed to proclaim that you're free, when, in fact, you're not. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,699 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:35:56 PM Reply	Final word I have NOT been continually declaring I'm free. It came up once, and I answered it, and I tried to drop it. If I was running around all over the board declaring I'm free, I'm free, that would be one thing, I'm not. You all keep revisiting this at me, not me. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #175,661 by bepatient 9/22/04 11:51:47 AM Reply	Note...they're not asking for your license #. You can drive if you like. No CAPPS information is provided there. Freedom of speech, for example, does not give you the right to yell fire in a crowded theater. And again, I don't see anywhere where freedom to board an 3oo passenger jetliner is guaranteed in any way, shape or form. And also, I am not free to get in my automobile and drive along sidewalks in London. The government >tests< me before they allow me to drive...and reserves the right to remove that privieledge should I prove unworthy. This is not a viewpoint of complacency. It is a viewpoint that wonders when, exactly, all of these freedoms were established that create extreme risk for other members of society...and how it is such an atrocious act as a society to attempt to mitigate those risks. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,664 by pwhysall 9/22/04 11:54:33 AM Reply	It's about freedom of movement. Without the government having the right to know where you went. The next logical question after "where are you going?" is "why?" Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,702 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:39:10 PM Reply	Walk, drive, hitchhike, take the bus, pay cash. However, you wanna get there faster in an aluminum tube owned by someone else and carrying 300 other folks...you introduce a completely different dynamic to that "freedom". If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,704 by pwhysall 9/22/04 12:41:15 PM Reply	What's substantively different between a bus and a plane? In the context of "why on earth does the government have any right to know where I'm going?", of course. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,707 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:42:34 PM Reply	Actually thought of that when I posted. None really...so don't take the bus either ;-) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,736 by jb4 9/22/04 1:49:30 PM Reply	One difference: You can't take a bus from London to Dulles.. jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,737 by pwhysall 9/22/04 1:51:31 PM Reply	You can, however take one from London to Paris. So what's the diff? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,740 by jb4 9/22/04 1:52:59 PM Reply	The French aren't playing CAPPSLite. Next question....? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,744 by bepatient 9/22/04 1:57:00 PM Reply	No...but they do have the Carte D'Identite! And they can ask you for it anywhere. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,745 by pwhysall 9/22/04 1:58:14 PM Reply	I don't want one of THOSE, either. Why do you hate my freedom so? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #175,747 by jb4 9/22/04 1:58:42 PM Reply	So, should I answer: "But all I have is a pipe..."? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #175,748 by bepatient 9/22/04 2:00:05 PM Reply	:-) Big-a*ed grin :-)))) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}* [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,783 by Silverlock 9/22/04 3:35:59 PM Reply	The bus is more comfortable. Recently took a Greyhound. Faster when considered door to door for trips up to around 300 miles, cheaper and much much more comfortable. ----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko
Post #175,785 by ChrisR 9/22/04 3:40:21 PM Reply	Trains much more comfortable than buses. You can get up and walk around, and some even have bars. Speaking of which, no drinks served on buses.
Post #175,825 by Silverlock 9/22/04 7:05:06 PM Reply	Well, yes. That's absolutely true. And completely beside the point. ----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko
Post #175,671 by Simon_Jester 9/22/04 11:56:51 AM Reply	Backwards statement... And again, I don't see anywhere where freedom to board an 3oo passenger jetliner is guaranteed in any way, shape or form. And where does it say that the government can demand to see my papers to board a private jetliner?
Post #175,703 by bepatient 9/22/04 12:40:44 PM Reply	Where does it say they can't? I know...illegal search and seizure...I know where you're heading with this;) If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #175,690 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:24:32 PM Reply	This whole thread Got screwed up. First I thought I took something to FQ, and didn't, and I apologize to Jake and everyone else for that. I really thought I took it in there and vented. I'm not coping well today, and I don't even seem to be able to put the post in FQ again, so I quit trying. And yes, Ben, I know other people have bad days, and many are worse, but that doesn't make me cope any better, ok? So please all just give me a break so I can get calmer and deal with this better? I'm not helping anything by not being able to get the posts where I want them. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #175,693 by ChrisR 9/22/04 12:28:13 PM Reply	Suggestion Mark the Politics forum read till 2099, and mark it current when feeling less flustered.
Post #175,701 by Nightowl 9/22/04 12:36:47 PM Reply	Thanks I don't want to mark it read, though, just find the good sense to stop responding again and getting into these messes, like I used to have. Good idea Chris, thanks. Nightowl >8# "It's not where a person stands in time of comfort and security, but rather where they stand in times of strife and controversy that determine true friends." (Quote sent to me by a true friend, author unknown).
Post #176,052 by orion 9/23/04 11:29:09 PM Reply	Freedom is relative we have to give up some of our freedom for security and then hope the security works. Invasion of privacy seems to be an issue here. Being an ex-mental patient I get used to losing my freedom. Yet whatever people do to me, my mind is still free, even if I am locked up in a room with freedoms taken away from me. They can break my body, but they cannot break my spirit (or mind). Leaders are a bit of an idiot, both Bush and Kerry are idiots, in a mental contest between Bush, Kerry, and Gump, Gump would win. In the USA, management is promoted by failure, the bigger the mistakes the bigger the office or position they get. Those that are competant get "the treatment" and are forced to quit or given a creative discharge with bogus documentation saying how bad a worker they are which is nothing but a bunch of creative writing (aka lies). I lost my freedom to life, liberty, and the pursute of happiness when my career was ruined, they used my illnesses against me. Now, like Orr, I was shot down enough times that I took a life-raft to Switzerland (Disability) until I can plan my next move (college). :) *"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].

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