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New Re: No, it's *not* the right answer.
I have a reading list miles long, music to work on, physics to work on, this place, job searching etc. etc. I *really* don't have time for fantasy, be it ever so clever and deep. I'd like to have time to get caught up in sci-fi but that's out as well. I'm not knocking the book, just honestly stating that I don't have space for it.
-drl
New eh? LOTR is time spent away from drudge (reporting or work)
I have read it many times. If I spent as much time reading Torah as I did re-reading LOTR then I would be a very religious person. Its timeless fantasy. It is the read that refreshes.
thanx,.
bill
Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518
I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New just never warmed up to this kind of fantasy
I am very interested however in the social aspect of this "phenomenon". Clearly something in it resonates with people everywhere, and smart ones at that.
-drl
New not so much fantasy as much as the world circa 400 AD
as we'un would like to fantasize.
thanx.
bill
Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518
I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Simple
Its popular because its good.

I happen to agree that it is one of the finest works of the previous century. With that, it had a huge readership base that, in turn, fueled the movie's popularity.

Quit making excuses and read it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Let's let Tolkien defend fantasy in his own words
This is from a letter that he wrote to a reader defending his telling of fairy-stories:

\ufffdDear Sir,\ufffd I said\ufffdAlthough now long estranged,
Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Dis-graced he may be, yet is not de-throned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned:
Man, Sub-creator, the refracted Light
through whom is splintered from a single White
to many hues, and endlessly combined
in living shapes that move from mind to mind.
Though all the crannies of the world we filled
with Elves and Goblins, though we dared to build
Gods and their houses out of dark and light,
and sowed the seed of dragons\ufffd'twas our right
(used or misused). That right has not decayed:
we make still by the law in which we're made.\ufffd


Quoted in [link|http://larsen-family.us/~1066/onfairystories.html|On Fairy-Stories], which itself is a decent explanation of what Tolkien thought of fantasy, and his explanation of why fantasy has been so neglected in English literature.

Ironically he predicted that the Lord of the Rings would always be a failure as a dramatic performance. He was at least somewhat right - to the extent that the movie succeeded it was because the movie makers recognized as Tolkien did what couldn't be done, and consequently left out most of the tapestry that made up Tolkien's world. However it is also clear that movies today can partially transcend the limitations of drama.

But I'll let you read his critique of his life's interest for yourself. I've already read it, and know that communicating what it says to me is beyond my abilities. I can repeat disjointed lessons that I've taken from it, but not the whole picture that it presents on how our imagination and personal stories take internal shape when we least expect it to.

Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
New That's what you should have said in the first place.
Instead of getting all annoyed when people - predictably - suggested you just read it. :-)

The Lord Of The Rings originated out of Tolkien's desire to write a story of the kind he liked reading. Tolkien was an English professor with an interest in European mythology and languages. Over time the idea of creating a world wholly separate from our own, and giving it thousands of years of coherent history and metaphysics became irresistable.

As he built Middle Earth, he gave various races differing roles. Many years after it was published, Tolkien is known to have said it was a mistake to call one race "elf" and another race "dwarf". Much of modern fantasy owes a huge debt to Tolkien with regard to characterisations of elves and dwarves. OTOH, Hobbits (aka halflings) are his own creation and reflect his ideals about English life.

One of the core ideas about the LotR is about the seduction of power.

The Ring of the title is a small magical artifact created by one of the most powerful beings to ever have lived on Middle Earth many centuries before. Unfortunately, this powerful being, one Sauron by name, was absolutely obsessed with the idea of subjugating all living things. (He and his master had been kicked out of Middle Earth's version of Heaven eons before.) Sauron had also created other rings and given them to men and dwarves - the elves had created their own, but they were still part of the set. And Sauron's ring was designed to be the One, Ruling Ring.

"Magic" in Middle Earth is properly defined as something that some races "have" or "are", even though it can be borrowed or stolen and wielded by others. Men are not magical. Hobbits are not magical. Elves are, though, and cannot understand mankind's fascination for it. Sauron's power is largely stolen, too. And the Ring he created is so magically powerful that the attraction to have it and wield it is very strong. The main problem with that is the nature of the Ring itself: it was forged for Sauron and Sauron alone. The power in the Ring actually is Sauron's power.

The actual story chronicles one small Hobbit who inherits the One Ring at a time when Sauron begins to make trouble in the world. As it happens, though, the two are thousands of miles apart and Frodo Baggins, our hobbit, is as about as unmagical a creature as you could imagine. All he knows is that it makes the wearer invisible. But he has a non-hobbit friend who visits from time to time called Gandalf. Tolkien was coy about just what Gandalf is; whilst a man in size and shape, he is also a wizard which Tolkien often referred to as though this was yet another race, not a profession.

Under Gandalf's counsel, Frodo learns what the Ring is and to not use it. He then begins the long journey to dispose of it, ironically in the same place Sauron currently resides. This is because that's where it was forged and therefore the only place it can be destroyed. Along the journey we meet men of several stripes, dwarves and elves, and explore the effects of friendship and loyalty, prophecy and love. And of selfishness - the seduction of the power of the ring and what it represents is so magically strong that it has the power to corrupt. Several people who know themselves better than most refuse to take the Ring when offered; a few others who do not attempt to acquire the Ring by force from Frodo, with consequences ranging from sad to tragic.

It is not hard to surmise that one of Tolkien's messages is that there are things man is not meant to know or have. The magic of the Ring is deadly to all who would have it - especially to those for whom magic is not intended.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

New What a strange synchronicity
I was just reading about the terrifying effects of datura, and thinking the very same thing - man is not meant to know some things. In AC Clarke's "Childhood's End", at one point a Ouija board is produced. The Overlords are fascinated by Earth's occult behaviors - for reasons men don't get. In any case the Ouija board spells out

REMEMBERMANISNOTALONENEXTTOMANISCOUNTRYOFOTHERS

I get goose bumps as I write that - the greatest single moment in science fiction. Man is becoming not-Man, and there won't be any resemblence.

Thanks for the synopsis, I suppose I will read it after all. I've got an IWETHEYer expert a few miles distant.
-drl
Expand Edited by deSitter July 28, 2004, 01:19:51 AM EDT
New Most pithily summarized.
I quite agree that 'seduction of/by Power' is the core. But this work is far more compelling to read than any prose attempt at such a massive idea. Only poetry might be briefer, if we had any Great poets left.

I'd only put a veneer over that encapsulation - that it is of such 'scale' as to suggest many? most intrigues of the day == Any Day! In that, it is like all 'scripture', anthropomorphizing that which we do not / cannot 'understand', so we fake it.

IMO he 'fakes it' exceeding well, and his aim to incorporate his lifetime studies of the myths of his own milieu - I think is quite akin to Jos. Campbell's various opera, The Power of Myth, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, etc.

Campbell chose prose; Tolkien the oft-times more emotionally powerful form of.. a legitimate Saga or Edda or whatever, undiminished for being only less-'true' than the more familiar others.

We each can read into / out-of? [either author's version] our own metaphors; as metaphor seems to be the machine language of homo-sap mentation. (Assembly language is - - )


Ashton
who concurs that it is assuredly among any list of the top-5? from that past Century of War Madness
New Corrections
The 3 rings for elves, 7 for dwarves and 9 for mortal men were not made by Sauron. They were made by elves whom Sauron had taught.

Sauron's power is not mostly stolen. He has great power over others, but his power is innate to him. He is, in fact, a Maia who is much reduced in power from what he once had. For instance since being caught in the fall of N\ufffdmenor (which he engineered) he can no longer appear in any fair form.

The Lord of the Rings does not go into detail on what wizards are, but Tolkien did make that clear in the Silmarillion. All that is known about them in the LotR is that they look like men, but age very slowly and have strange powers. In fact they are Maia (think something between a nature spirit and a god - Sauron is a Maia) who were stripped of most of their power and memory then sent out by the Valar (think gods). (Gandalf's real name is Olorin.) The purpose of their being stripped of power and memory is that the Valar have learned that showing themselves in power and majesty has the opposite effect from what they want.

Some of the major themes of the book are the nature of good vs evil, that heroism consists of nothing more than normal people doing what they have to when needed, the nature of power and corruption, and reflections on the inevitable passing of history into myth.

One warning about the series. In Tolkien's day it was customary to write in the passive voice. The series is a rich texture of thoughts, feelings, and events. But it deliberately does not attempt to grip with cliffhangers, and force you to read on. It is easy to put it down anywhere, and pick it up later. Readers who are used to a more active writing style may have trouble finishing for this reason.

Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
New I stand corrected.
My memory of The Silmarillion is clearly faulty. :-)

I did not recall correctly on the creation of the 9, 7 and 3, although I thought the elves said that Sauron had never touched the 3. Fortunately my point remains about magic being innate to elves and not to man or dwarves.

The LotR does not go into detail about the Wizards, true. My comments were limited to the LotR and not The Silmarillion, though I did not make that clear, sorry.

I did know Sauron was one of the Maia. I thought he had co-opted a lot of magical knowledge from the elves - particularly regarding the rings. Obviously I overstated this against his own powers.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
 
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

     What is the "Lord of the Rings" about? - (deSitter) - (39)
         Step One. - (static) - (6)
             No. - (deSitter) - (5)
                 Oh, really? - (CRConrad)
                 Then I shan't tell you what it's about. :-) -NT - (static)
                 I consider it to be among the best things written - (imric)
                 OK, what is the last 900 pages book - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                     Re: OK, what is the last 900 pages book - (deSitter)
         Money -NT - (drewk)
         Rings. -NT - (pwhysall) - (3)
             Lords -NT - (broomberg) - (2)
                 Profit! -NT - (folkert) - (1)
                     The trilogy is about The Ferengis? :-D -NT - (lincoln)
         Good and Evil, Friendship, Power, stuff like that. - (Another Scott) - (18)
             Attention folks, this is the right answer - (deSitter) - (16)
                 Er... - (admin) - (2)
                     Re: Er... - (deSitter) - (1)
                         Fie on such a '04 Pedestrian desire, even in jest-iculation - (Ashton)
                 No, THIS is the right answer: - (pwhysall)
                 No, it's *not* the right answer. - (static) - (11)
                     Re: No, it's *not* the right answer. - (deSitter) - (10)
                         eh? LOTR is time spent away from drudge (reporting or work) - (boxley) - (4)
                             just never warmed up to this kind of fantasy - (deSitter) - (3)
                                 not so much fantasy as much as the world circa 400 AD - (boxley)
                                 Simple - (bepatient)
                                 Let's let Tolkien defend fantasy in his own words - (ben_tilly)
                         That's what you should have said in the first place. - (static) - (4)
                             What a strange synchronicity - (deSitter)
                             Most pithily summarized. - (Ashton)
                             Corrections - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 I stand corrected. - (static)
             The ravages of war, - (Steven A S)
         either read the dam thing or dont - (boxley) - (1)
             Never saw a machine named that way... - (admin)
         Short people, elves, and whupass. - (admin)
         If you want the short version... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
             Don't feed smug sloth, you ninny. -NT - (Ashton)
         You want to know what the buzz is about? - (Silverlock) - (2)
             You've been waiting for a chance to use that, haven't you? -NT - (inthane-chan) - (1)
                 Chenyin'-A right I have! -NT - (Silverlock)

It's Zeus. He's taking you away to the Acropolis.
91 ms