IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Well . . .
The Jews started this whole "one God, one way, all others must die" religious intollerance thing in the first place - a few thousand years ago - so it's not surprising it keeps comming back to bite them.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Yabut..
look how Popular that one became.

Somebody had to invent it first.

I guess.




A.
New Not at all
Judaism has never forced anyone to do anything. Judaism does not look for converts, in fact onverst are discouraged, it is Christianity and Islam that have used force not Judaism.
New You missed the point entirely.
Look at the Jewish texts, the ones the Christians call "Old Testament". No, there's no conversion there, there's simply slaughter of anyone who is not a Jew - slaughter over and over again. There's no forcing of anyone - just kill them. The only saving grace is that many of the conquests recorded never happened but were simply made up.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New I didn't miss the point
Yes, if you read those texts literally (as Christians do) then it talks about slaughter (just like it says an eye for an eye). However, Jews have never read the text literally, we have always read the text with the interpretation of the Oral Law, and therefore Jews have always understand those verses differently and that they never meant to say that anyone should be slaughtered.
New How very convenient for you.
No matter what is said about the foundation of your religion, you can say "That's what it says, but that's not how we interpret it, and since the interpretation is oral, there's no way you could know if you aren't a Jew".

Uh-huh.

It does have the advantage of allowing widely different versions of Judaism and allows them to change with the times, a luxury Islam does not have. The Christians have the option of ignoring the Old Testament, and some denominations do.

In any case, I suspect the "oral interpretation" was much different back when this stuff was written, and taken much more literally. It was probably still taken much more literally when Christianity and Islam were founded.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: How very convenient for you.
Actually, for the past 2000 years it has been written down (known as the talmud) and is therefore open to anyone.
New Well, I'm not about to become a Talmudic schollar . .
. . especially since it's dangerous (composer Charles Valentin Morhange (Alkan) was crushed by a heavy bookcase while reaching for a volume of the Talmud).

Consequently, I will take your word (with a grain of salt) that the Talmud weasel words around the literal text to satisfy modern sensibilities.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New The talmud was written 2000 years ago...
well before modern sensibilities.
New beg to differ
Talmud 1st conference was started in 71 AD after the temple crash(I thought) BTW I have seen offers of translations into english but am leary, how valid are they or is it better to break down and learn hebrew.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New I was not being exact
I was giving a round number, it was actually completed and written down about the year 300.

The talmud is not in Hebrew but Aramaic, Artscroll now has a very good translation into English.
New A significant detail
You say that Jews don't think that the verses say that people should be slaughtered.

You don't say that Jews think that people should have been slaughtered.

I can easily understand how the text could be interpreted to not be talking about how we should behave now. But it very clearly talks about what awful and disgusting things the Jews of the day did and were supposed to do. And the records of the Jews having conducted those slaughters is hardly irrelevant to the current claims of some Israelies to this very day.

Cheers,
Ben
New What records?
According to you, the Bible is man made document written much later and most of the events in it didn't happen.
New up early or staying up late?
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New That is both a mis-statement, and irrelevant
First of all the old testament in the Christian Bible is essentially the records as kept by the Jews of the history of their religion.

Now Andrew Grygus thinks that large parts of what is recorded in those records is altered and made up after the fact. This is a claim that I personally have little opinion on, given that I have not studied it.

But whether or not the Old Testament is an accurate record of events, it is definitely a record of events. And it is a record which is taken seriously by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. (Though a basic claim of Islam is that the record has been altered through history. Only some Jews and Christians believe this.) Furthermore whether or not I happen to believe that the record is accurate is irrelevant to the fact that many Jews and Christians believe it to be accurate.

In particular many Jews claim that the atrocities recorded in the Old Testament happened essentially as documented in their own religious writings, and current geopolitical claims made by many in Israel depend upon the claim that their ancestors committed genocide. Furthermore it is an item of faith for many millions of people that those acts of genocide were ordered by God, and were therefore good things for the Jews to have done.

Now the statement of mine that you may be confused over is that the Christian New Testament is based on an authorized selection of eyewitness reports that were written down at some remove to the events described. Being eyewitness reports, there are internal contradictions of a kind to be found in eyewitness reports from all days. And I personally place no more or less weight on the eyewitness reports that make up the foundations of Christianity than I do the eyewitness reports from any other small religious sect.

Those are statements which fit perfectly with what is known of the history of the Bible. The statements of fact are universally accepted among religious scholars. However they are statements which a significant portion of the US public takes exception to. (Something like 40% of the US believe that the Bible is inerrant.) Hence the controversy, even though I, for instance, do not have any reason to dispute that there was a man whose name was approximately Jesus Christ (I doubt we have kept the Aramic pronounciation) who was a religious leader put to death, most probably through crucifixion.

But anyways, that is neither here nor there. For one thing it is a claim about the New Testament, not the Old. For another my statement was about current beliefs about events as recorded in the OT, and so the question of whether or not those events in fact happened is completely irrelevant.

Cheers,
Ben
New Interesting (?) side note
You don't say that Jews think that people should have been slaughtered.

Actually, it's even worse - pretty much every evil thing from the time they entered the promised land to, oh, probably the time of David or Solomon, is attributed to their failure to slaughter every last man, woman, and child in Canaan.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Proselytizing
It's pretty obvious that Judaism, unlike Christianity or Islamics, don't go out of their way to convert other peoples to their beliefs.

What I'm wondering, though, is whether it's always been that way. I vaguely recall reading some history where it was claimed that Judaism used to be a bit more willing to seek converts. I know it was talking about prior to the fall of the Temple (90CE), but a bit after the Maccabees and the friction with the Greeks.

Anyhow, I'm just wondering whether the discouragement of proselytizing has always been a feature of Judaic beliefs? (Not that it has much to do with the current conversation).
New The original diciples of christ except for paul
were heavily promoters of judaism and were converting right and left. paul decided to change all that and converted them to worship christ instead of G_d.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Besides, how can you be the exclusive chosen people...
if everyone else is allowed in. That would defeat the whole thing. It's kind of like those country clubs not looking for Jewish members. More like the cosa nostra - it's our thing.

Thank you for not asking! Really!
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New thass all right, we'd let yas come visit for a price,
just like disney world:)
thanx,
bill
yer just annoyed because ya dont have all the advantages of being stuck in an oven some time when the gentiles get quarrelsome. :)
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
New Actually, there was no fee...
when I last visited Shalom Park a mixed congregation type Jewish Center here in Charlotte.

Or, the Temple in Kingston, NY where I was a guest to 3 bar mitzvahs.

Shalom!
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Very simple
You misunderstand the idea of the chosen people. Christians believe that the only way to slavation is through Jesus and therefore try to convert everyone. Judaism believes that everyone has a different purpose in this world. Everyone who serves God will be rewarded. Therefore there is no need for everyone to become Jewish.
New Thanks for the explanation.
I wish Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons, who come to the door here occasionally, would think the same way.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
     A Jew in the Mosque. - (addison) - (26)
         I guess Christian, the Jews are just whining again, right? - (bluke) - (25)
             Well . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (22)
                 Yabut.. - (Ashton)
                 Not at all - (bluke) - (20)
                     You missed the point entirely. - (Andrew Grygus) - (12)
                         I didn't miss the point - (bluke) - (11)
                             How very convenient for you. - (Andrew Grygus) - (5)
                                 Re: How very convenient for you. - (bluke) - (4)
                                     Well, I'm not about to become a Talmudic schollar . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (3)
                                         The talmud was written 2000 years ago... - (bluke) - (2)
                                             beg to differ - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 I was not being exact - (bluke)
                             A significant detail - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                 What records? - (bluke) - (2)
                                     up early or staying up late? -NT - (boxley)
                                     That is both a mis-statement, and irrelevant - (ben_tilly)
                                 Interesting (?) side note - (wharris2)
                     Proselytizing - (ChrisR) - (6)
                         The original diciples of christ except for paul - (boxley) - (5)
                             Besides, how can you be the exclusive chosen people... - (a6l6e6x) - (4)
                                 thass all right, we'd let yas come visit for a price, - (boxley) - (1)
                                     Actually, there was no fee... - (a6l6e6x)
                                 Very simple - (bluke) - (1)
                                     Thanks for the explanation. - (a6l6e6x)
             More on this - (bluke) - (1)
                 Clearly the mindset is (almost..) species-wide. - (Ashton)

Why not just name him Hitler B. Evil?
148 ms