Post #129,250
12/6/03 10:05:46 AM
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Ashton/Peter
Nightowl, you have to understand that there are people in the world who want to impress and intimidate through their use of language. IMHO, this smacks of elitism, and tends to hide either an underlying insecurity, or their own form of narcissism, where everyone else is a bumbling fool. Coming from Texas, I'm surely "doomed" to be the "bumbling fool" and not one of the "enlightened" ones.
I've also seen a variant of this in the computer "religious" wars. A person really learns the details of a technology (language, operating system, middleware, business system) and then attempts to increase his or her value by attempting to make fools of everyone who knows less than them.
In academia, it occurs as professors compete for precious few tenured positions, grant dollars, and other dwindling University resources. Their use of language attempts to "prove" how very "smart" they are.
A lot of education does not make a person "smart". Wisdom, which is my definition of smart, comes from being able to chose the situations where you respond to something (either positively or negatively), or chose not to. In a positive sense these can be finding and acting on the right opportunity. In a cautious sense, it means staying out of fights that "can" hurt you, or even divert you from your goals.
In addition to academic knowlege, one needs what people call "common sense", or practicality. Wise people can get by with a lot less academic knowledge, by finding academics who are happy to tell them what they know.
I think a person is MOST effective with both some academic knowledge and common sense. I think mostly, common sense comes from your own failures and watching others fail, and learning from their mistakes.
One thing I've seen on this board are a group of people who want this kind of elitism, they need to "feel important". Feeling important can involve having "last say" on a topic, or posting something so obfuscated that it is difficult to read.
Let them have it and don't feel insecure. They want to win, and this is one place where they can have a victory, maybe where the rest of the world isn't so kind to them.
I chose not to respond to a lot on this board, partly because I'm very short on time personally, but also because I know many conversations are unproductive. I'm not going to convince them of anything (they already know it all), and they probably aren't going to convince me.
I chose to interact with people when:
1. I can help someone.
2. I can learn something.
3. Someone is pleasant to converse with.
That is where I feel I can be effective. I've been on about 4 years now (or longer?), dating all the way back to when we posted at InfoWorld, then ezBoard, and now IWETHEY. I know a lot of these people, better than I know some of the people I interact with at work (even at old jobs).
So, Hoot Hoot to you from one wise owl to another.
Glen Austin
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Post #129,253
12/6/03 10:16:49 AM
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Different sites have different characteristics.
Hi,
I think there's a little bit of a culture-clash happening here. The groups I've seen on Yahoo have been much more familiar than zIWeThey. Someone coming here from that environment may be more used to pouring out their heart and feelings than many of us are used to. It's not that one type of discussion is better than the other, it's that they're different.
We all have a choice of what we read and respond to. The discussion here shouldn't be seen as intimidating. People are usually just posting their thoughts. Don't take it personally - life's too short.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #129,255
12/6/03 10:19:01 AM
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Re: Ashton/Peter
So, Ash and Peter (plain talking Peter??) are supposed to dumb down for your benefit?
Ash is who he is, he has his own way. He's the last person who would try to "intimidate" someone (suppose that could be said of Rick Moen, but it never works...)
The plain facts are, "Owl" is insulting with her overweening "niceness" that masks a projected hostility and the resulting paranoia. People who are insulted will react. She came here of her own will, and she can deal with it.
-drl
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Post #129,259
12/6/03 10:27:36 AM
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FINAL STATEMENT TO ROSS
Some day, trust me you will look back on all of this and regret that you alienated such a resourceful person in your own neck of the woods.
Grow up, get a life, and stay out of mine.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,271
12/6/03 11:12:39 AM
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Not saying that at all...
I've learned a few new words from Ashton, I do still read his posts.
Peter and I seem to get along fine.
You and I have had words, but we've learned to respect each other, and mostly stay out of each other's way.
You're smart Ross, I know that. You just have a lot of venom that keeps you from interacting with people at any kind of deep and meaningful level. Same with Peter. The way you interact with people scares many away.
Nightowl is a different sort of person. Reasonably smart, maybe a little older, very insecure, very sensitive. Where I don't really give a damn if someone calls me an idiot, it does hurt her feelings.
I think this forum is good for her, because she's learning to be less sensitive, especially in "online relationships", and that's a good thing.
Online relationships are never a substitute for Real Life. Owl, find real people to interact with, even if they aren't on this board.
Glen Austin
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Post #129,274
12/6/03 11:15:28 AM
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Real people
Trust me Glen, I have a lot of real people, relatives, church people, and friends from Affinity that I interact with and I'm learning to apply the same strategies with them that I'm applying here. :)
I'm working on being less insecure, and less sensitive, but I still don't like people to cuss at me.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,305
12/6/03 4:09:08 PM
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Re: Not saying that at all...
As to Ross's putative ... that keeps you from interacting with people at any kind of deep and meaningful level.
Maybe you just skim. A lot. There's plenty of material to counter such a simplistic encapsulation. I demur.
Esp. for his also being math/physics oriented on a virtuoso level - that is utterly to miss the exchanges, esp. re music: than which there is NO "deeper, [more] meaningful" revelation of the poet within anyone. And someone who can find such "words about" music is certainly not looking-it-up in the dictionary; it comes from the Heart.
Personally, I don't give a shit if Ross is moody? occasionally abrasive and sometimes off-the-wall - I'll put up with a Lot for originality and at least occasional competent and incisive commentary (even when I disagree with certain premises - then often enough, say so - if the topic is also an Interest of my own.)
If.. you're going to 'characterize' someone, at least characterize comprehensively. Ross has been here forever - and if that's all you can 'say', please look first to your own inattention. Go look up 'Glenn Gould', for just one.
As for this current one-of-a new series of teapot tempests over the proper care and feeding of feathered creatures with perpetually broken wings:
I feel no Need.. 'to be liked by Everyone' nor either to be 'excused' ('cause I be so Fragile) whenever I react too- harshly to real or imagined provocations and receive ripostes. I accept the requisite choosing-off on Any Topic, as adults (used to) do. (If I thought I were Right all the time, I'd be marlowe2.)
OTOH I'm also not about to dumb-down to the level of contemporary naifs as bleed from mere skin-contact with Different Views of 'contemporary habits'. I am aware that there exist politely vapid environments, frequented by the lovers of euphemism - wherein every Hard Subject is deemed 'controversial and disallowed'. A 'moderator' shall ensure that only niceness about trivia shall happen there.
Alien world; can't *imagine* zIWE ever opting for castration. I'll take warts over.. broad spectrum antibiotics. Or over, Kenny G plays Monteverdi on Elimidate.
Cheers,
I.
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Post #129,313
12/6/03 5:40:29 PM
12/6/03 5:53:15 PM
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Relating to people vs. music....
Ashton, I agree that Ross is a deep person. I understand a lot of his fears. I have the same ones.
But, Ross also is closed in that he doesn't "deal well" with people who aren't like him. I guess maybe I'm being somewhat unfair because most people don't deal well with people who aren't like them.
I feel like I do a "decent" job, but maybe, really, I don't either. (And I'm just fooling myself.)
Ross' rich understanding of music I appreciate. I listen to Rachmanimanoff (even if I can't spell it). Tchaikovksy, Beethoven, Mozart, Verdi. His understanding of physics and math, and even computers mean that he's smart. I'm not disputing that one bit.
But, smart people often have trouble relating to others, especially those who might not be quite as bright. Even I have people at work that simply drive me nuts, because they're supposed to be a C++ or EDI expert (and paid to do so), and they are clueless. And when those people succeed and you get poorer it pisses you off. It does me.
Ross has had some bad stuff happen, I admit that. And I'm sorry about his medical problems. And I get depressed like he does (even when I have a job). But my wife and church get me to focus, and eventually I can get the airplane out of the nose dive, and back to level flight.
I'm certainly not asking for "dumb down" conversation, I can handle what Ashton/Peter/Ross/Scott/Greg/RCareaga/Boxley throw at me. And you don't have to even be nice. I'm pretty thick skinned.
But Owl is different, sensitive. Maybe part of it is the gender, but she's wired to trust people, to converse on a plane of mutual respect and dignity, that perhaps us "NFL-style", "WWF style" boys aren't. And I get a little disappointed with us "rough and tumble" boys when we relate to women poorly.
We can get a little pugilistic at times, and I've been a part of those fights (but probably not for a long while).
Anyway, that's my two cents. Ross is deep, maybe even more so than the average person, but he doesn't trust/like people very much at all. And a lot may be justified as he's had a tough road.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Dec. 6, 2003, 05:53:15 PM EST
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Post #129,318
12/6/03 6:15:05 PM
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Umm.. well said.
Nothing to disagree with, there. I don't think I can add anything to it, either.
(And I'll admit that, certain styles of er sensitivity are apt to temporarily discombobulate my own compassion gene, too.. it sorta issues a CRC-error; or even Tears Overrun in AX, BX if'n ya knows what I mean ;-)
[link|http://www.opuscds.com/cd/33093| Pace pace O Mio Dio]
Perhaps appropriately, from (La forza del destino)
:-\ufffd
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Post #129,448
12/7/03 3:55:28 PM
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I've gotten used to it
people like Ross and Peter can still be friends with me despite all the words we have had with each other. I am very forgiving, and in a way the negative feedback shows me areas that I need improving on. So it is not useless.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #129,256
12/6/03 10:21:34 AM
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Choosing to respond
You're right, Austin, and I'm still working on whether to respond at times or not. One of the things though, that my counselor taught me, is, if it would help ME to respond, respond. So your three are good, i.e. 1)if I can help someone, 2) if I can learn something, 3) if it is pleasant to talk to them but there's a 4th reason for me, and that's if I need it or it will help me.
My panic Anxiety puts me in a place where in order to relax, I have to act at times. Last night, I knew I could not sleep after reading Peter's and Ross's posts, so I made my Get off my Back post, went to bed and slept fine. :)
Thanks for your comments they are appreciated.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,272
12/6/03 11:13:54 AM
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Eh?
I thought I was a straight-talkin' fella.
I don't seek to intimidate or impress anyone on this site; I save that for the laydeez in the pub :)
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #129,315
12/6/03 5:45:06 PM
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You are straight talkin'
You just want the last post, to win.
Glen
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Post #129,317
12/6/03 6:00:59 PM
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You're misreading him, IMHO.
Hi Glen,
I think if you review [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/search/?field_searchUser=24&field_searchSubject=&field_searchContent=&field_searchSignature=&field_searchForum=7&field_boardid=1&submit_ok%3Amethod=Search|Peter's Water Cooler posts] you'll see that he's just giving his opinions, not attempting to impose his views or win. "In cyberspace nobody can see you do the victory dance!"
Now if Mr. Moen were participating... ;-)
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #129,357
12/6/03 11:11:31 PM
12/6/03 11:24:54 PM
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how's this, then?
Perhaps our good admin and the other high sheriffs here could establish a special "Owl" forum. Clearly the demand is there: we have demonstrated that when the gentle, unworldly Brenda enters a discussion, the traffic soars even as the information content abrades, and that whatever the initial topic may have been it is inexorably pulled toward the all-absorbing subject of...Nightowl. Should a dedicated forum be established, a refuge might be found for all with a compelling interest in Nightowl's counselor...in Nightowl's affinity group...in the perfect trust characterizing Nightowl's domestic arrangements...in the freshness of Nightowl's outlook, unsullied by a hint of comprehension, on almost any topic she ventures to discuss. Here, too, the bilious types incapable of appreciating Nightowl's angelic nature could spew in this one dedicated venue where likewise Nightowl's defenders, the very flower of electronic chivalry, could mount massed reproaches against her detractors—in simple, direct subject-verb sentences, please, and none of your subordinate clauses: leave that sort of thing to the elitists.
Everybody wins. It's all Nightowl all the time for them as wants it, and a more favorable signal-to-noise ratio everywhere else. Who's with me?
cordially,
[edit: typo (but "deicated" for "dedicated"—I was tempted for a moment to let it stand]
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Edited by rcareaga
Dec. 6, 2003, 11:24:54 PM EST
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Post #129,358
12/6/03 11:14:46 PM
12/6/03 11:16:59 PM
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Thanks but no thanks.
I certainly don't want or need a forum just for me here.
I already have one, called Portaffinity.
Nightowl >8#
Edit: changed content.
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
Edited by Nightowl
Dec. 6, 2003, 11:16:59 PM EST
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Post #129,360
12/6/03 11:17:10 PM
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actually, sweetheart...
I wasn't thinking of your needs.
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Post #129,361
12/6/03 11:21:48 PM
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Re: actually, sweetheart...
Ah, well knock yourself out then.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,381
12/7/03 7:37:22 AM
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Hey.. Variety is Good!
Of course, threads grow only by engagement with the circumscribed miniverse presented; then too - there were several Official offers of employment as Moderator for some proposed sites elsewhere -- (or were these merely rhetorical cheering-on towards that growth from fledgling self-powered flight --> towards the development of adult-sized talons?) OK - that was then.
Still, some of the advice offered.. appears just the sort as could be spoken in any home, as well as abroad, ie Grow up, get a life, and stay out of mine. - comes to mind. This might be placed next to such topics as, Update on the Owl -- for those interested whenever some extra-curricular conundrum urgently needs the massed brainpower of the hive. And the exercise of rummaging around for words once thought superfluous? Well, it's Good to stay versatile.
So yeah.. it might be fun to restore the Water Cooler to its multitopical roots. And there really isn't another place for soliloquies - is there?
'cept Flames, natch - but there seems to be spillover there, too :-0
I believe we still have a demo-anarchistic malleable zIWE -?- so WTF - I'd vote for a Avian forum too; handy for possible liberal use of the Move-to function - after Page 1 of any other forum is starting to tax us poor folk on 52K dial-ups.
Heh.. for how many years has the dread right-shift been tilted at?
(Besides, those occasional NT and LOCKED colorful flags.. provide a certain decoration, should the content cry out for a pinch of excitement.)
Ah well, maybe it's just a tempest in a communion cup. Maybe not much of a quorum on this, and we certainly don't want to taint the Kool-Aid\ufffd (?) Still, can't find out if "nobody uses" such a venue, unless --
Ashton Mencken Carlin OAS, BPOE
Antidisestablismentdeicationist Elitist
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Post #129,386
12/7/03 9:01:59 AM
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Hey, Without an Occasional Fuss...
It would seem to be more of a business, than a family. ;-)
Besides, we wouldn't want the place to get boring, now would we?
Glen
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Post #129,390
12/7/03 9:07:23 AM
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I think you're forgetting one thing
Creating an Avian Forum would imply that I have to stay out of the rest of them, and that isn't an option for me.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,423
12/7/03 1:45:42 PM
12/7/03 1:59:13 PM
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you misunderstand
The various precincts of IWT are open to all, owls included. Anyone here is free at all times to piss into the chalice of his choice. I, for example, could wade into the Linux forum if I pleased and, with a bit of effort, contrive to dominate any topic. Mind, I know fuck-all about Linux, but that needn't stop a body—I'd just jump on one of my usual hobbyhorses and, tally-ho, we'd be off to the races, and a discussion that had initially turned on some subtle technical question would soon be dominated by rc's meditations on global politics, by irritated responses from techno-elitists who desired the discussion to remain on point, by rc's gratuitously snotty ripostes to these objections...why, in no time at all I could divert the thread from boring old Linux to an exciting brawl all about me me me, significantly, even decisively diluting the information content dedicated to the issue as originally raised. Of course, were I to adopt such practices I would forfeit the esteem of several of our most influential participants, and would cease to be the universally beloved character I am today. Accordingly I try to confine my contributions to realms in which I can plausibly claim at least marginal competence, and it is in part upon this pillar of magisterial restraint that my kindly, avuncular online persona crouches.
The proposed Owl Forum (echo here of Phyllis Schlafley's "Eagle Forum"?) should not be construed as a cage, my dear Brenda, but rather as a limitless expanse of last week's newspapers, endless acres on which all things owlish may be deposited for the delectation of connoisseurs. Your participation elsewhere would be, as now, utterly unfettered and even, should you elect not to morph the conversation into an encounter group dedicated to the contemplation of your (alas, far from compelling) personal issues, treated with respect commensurate with their relevance. Between the one-stop shopping this option offers your partisans and the pleasant prospect for the rest of us of looking in on the Water Cooler now and again to find a topic du jour with a bearing on something—anything—else, I think it's win-win all around.
cordially,
[edit: tiny, irritating typos]
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Edited by rcareaga
Dec. 7, 2003, 01:52:37 PM EST
Edited by rcareaga
Dec. 7, 2003, 01:59:13 PM EST
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Post #129,426
12/7/03 2:18:51 PM
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Damn you, rcareaga, damn you all the way to Hell...!
...for beating me to the post! (Heh... Double-entendre not intended, but eerily apposite.)
(BTW: "kindly, avuncular online persona", eh? Hmm... But, yeah, "crouches" seems somehow oddly appropriate. So, along the roof-edges of old cathedrals, do the [other] gargoyles.)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
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Post #129,439
12/7/03 3:38:17 PM
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crouching codger, hidden gargoyle
It is always gratifying, CR, to have one of these carefully buried truffles unearthed.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #129,442
12/7/03 3:46:37 PM
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Thanks a lot - I think NOT! Oh well, at least we know...
...what to call you, from now on: "Hey, look, it's Uncle Gargoyle!"
That's the least I can do, for so elegantly calling me a Schweinehund. (Is it the French who prefer the former [half of this Germanic Chimaera], and the Italians the latter, to assist them in the hunt for the "Black Gold of the Forest", or is it the other way around? I can never remember.)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
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Post #129,450
12/7/03 3:58:33 PM
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You're two for two
—and I knew I could rely on you, dear nephew, to accept the proferred goodie in the spirit of comradely japery with which it was chosen.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #129,468
12/7/03 5:36:08 PM
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Non! Non! Oh C of RC --
In (utterly gratuitous but WTF!) defense of Kindly Uncle Vanya.. my bones just tell me that, the truffle ref intimated merely your undoubted gastronomic acumen; the scrambled-eggs-with those icky-black delights surely often on your breakfast tray, sharing space with a tiny crystal goblet of the last of the d'Yqem from a previous soiree, no doubt attended by some visiting relative of Piet Hein (and perhaps, Edvard Munch's love-grandchild.)
(er Sorry.. must have been the Pynchon my bookworms ate in the basement storage bin + that famous bit of undigested liver.)
Hope all is well with the CRC-let and the prolonged eventide in your neck of the woods.. Envy. Real seasons.
Ashton
Part-time Soap Scripts LLC
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Post #129,481
12/7/03 6:51:26 PM
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Envy??? You can have 'em!!!
You *do* realise, I hope, that all the rest of us envy the Hell outta Linus, for getting to escape to the eternal Californian Summer?
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
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Post #129,521
12/7/03 9:36:51 PM
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the four seasons of California
Fire. Earthquake. Mudslide. Riot.
cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
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Post #129,528
12/7/03 9:46:48 PM
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Didn't Mudslide win a Grammy for best new rap artist?
In Denver they used to say, Road Repair, Road Repair, Road Repair, and Winter.
-drl
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Post #129,428
12/7/03 2:28:30 PM
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Well to me it sounds like..
You're all belittling me, by wanting to make this Owl forum, but maybe I'm reading it wrong.
I think it would be smarter for me to learn the proper way you all want behavior in the forums for the most part, and for others also to adopt the concept of not reading my posts if they aren't interested.
Because I'm being honest here, I don't know for certain which posts would be considered "really having something to say" vs posts you all consider to be just about me. Sometimes people talk about themselves to contribute their experience to a thread that "really has something to say."
It honestly sounds pretty confusing.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,453
12/7/03 4:12:58 PM
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Excuse me for being Dr. Phil here
but you seem to like him, so I thought I'd do what he would do and be brutually honest and cut right to the point.
What the others are saying about an Owl Forum is that they would rather you didn't rattle on about yourself so much and instead stick to the issues. That was something that I did as well. It got me put on the CSS TWIT files for some users here who didn't want to read it. What they are trying to say to you is to not make your posts personal, and instead stick to the topic and issues. They don't want to hear what your Councilor thinks, or what John thinks, or whatever happened to you in the past, they want to know what you think about the topic or issue without getting all personal about it. They would rather if you must go on about personal issues that you please do it in a different forum.
Sorry if this hurts your feelings, but I didn't want them to beat around the bush so to speak and have someone directly say it to you. So I decided to play "Dr. Phil" for a post and give you the version of what I think they are trying to say.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #129,484
12/7/03 6:59:32 PM
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Re: Excuse me for being Dr. Phil here
I pretty much gathered that after all the posts and after a lot of gleaning from different ones here and there the same concept. But all they had to do was ask me to stop, not trash me. No offense taken, straight talk is ALWAYS welcomed.
Nightowl >8#
"The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #129,424
12/7/03 2:12:45 PM
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As usual, you misunderstand.
The Bird-brain twitters: Creating an Avian Forum would imply that I have to stay out of the rest of them No it doesn't. All it implies is a request that you limit yourself to posting in the other fora only when you actually have something to say. The hypothetical "Nightowl Forum" would be for all your other posts, where you don't speak of anything relating to anything besides yourself. This is actually pretty obvious... But still, I really don't know why I was even a little surprised that you didn't get it. that isn't an option for me. Huh?!? You mean, if you post in one place, then you absolutely have to post everywhere else, too??? Who ordered you to be like that? Actually, I doubt you actually do behave like that -- I certainly don't follow all the fora here (I tried to, but just couldn't keep up with the sheer mass of posts), but I seem to recall seeing both - fora I do follow, without any participation from you, and
- statements by you that some fora are "too technical" for you.
So you're obviously bullshitting yet again: Participating in some fora and not in others does, too, seem to be a perfectly viable option. "The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O} BTW, about that "narcissism" thing...
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
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Post #129,427
12/7/03 2:24:08 PM
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Now this time you didn't get it.
that isn't an option for me. Huh?!? You mean, if you post in one place, then you absolutely have to post everywhere else, too???
All that I meant by the statement "That isn't an option for me" was that it wasn't an option to confine myself to one forum and no others. I never at any point meant to imply or tried to imply that I post in every and all forums, because I mostly certainly don't. Sorry for the misunderstanding in wording. Nightowl >8# "The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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