Post #128,124
11/30/03 12:30:51 AM
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What about Jihad?
It seems to me that, according to Islam, you are supposed to kill unbelievers who are in direct opposition to the faith.
This is Jihad. A Holy War, a struggle. It is the reason that middle eastern countries cannot prosper. They can't be at peace long enough to build a stable and dependable infrastructure.
In contrast, the Bible teaches "Do good to your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. By repaying evil with good, you heap 'burning coals' on the heads of your enemies, in a spiritual sense.
In Christianity, you pray for your enemies, do good to them, and demonstrate to them that Jesus is really different.
The problem with Christianity, and Christians, is that most Christians don't want to live by the tough words that Jesus spoke. Words like "It is easier for a Camel to travel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven."
Most Christians want Jesus, but they don't REALLY want Jesus. They want to live by the "promises" of salvation and eternal life for those who confess Jesus as Savior and Lord. Yet, when a poor person appears in the church, or in the neighborhood, many hypocrite Christians just ignore them.
Most American Christians want "the faith" in a prosperity gospel, where Jesus blesses them and they get rich.
But, that isn't the REAL gospel of Jesus. In the early Chapters of Acts, true Christians sold everything they had and gave it to the church. People lived in a voluntary form of communism, where everyone gave to the whole, not because they had to, but because the Holy Spirit was very strong in the lives of the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus, and they felt led to these radical acts.
And it's that kind of volunteerism that saves lives, both physically and spiritually. It's realizing that capitalism and socialism, and even government-forced communism (or any other ism) will result in failure in society.
The book I just finished, "The Purpose Driven Life", teaches (from the Bible) that you don't really START living until you give up on the world. This means giving up on being "somebody" in the world, rich, famous, or "important". Only about 10% of modern Christians "get it".
I get it, and it scares me to death. My wife is in the 90%, she still wants the house, 2 cars in the garage, and to remodel our 5 year old house. I ask about sending money to my cousins who have now been out of work over 6 months, and she says, "they have their investments".
But, I guess it comes down to, do you really want live? Trust Jesus, and I mean completely.
Glen Austin
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Post #128,128
11/30/03 2:31:37 AM
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Glen,
Dont know you except from here so forgive my presumtions, but am assuming you are xian of some sort. Please take wife and kids on sunday to the shit end of the stick part of town and look for a church of the same label you currently attend. Sit thru the sermon, hang out afterwords and ask what the needs of that church is. Start supporting those needs. The church in your hood needs your support but the church in poverty requires your support. Famdamily is different. It is easier to support a family totally dependant on your charity than on e shifty relative:-)
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #128,137
11/30/03 7:00:42 AM
12/1/03 5:37:12 AM
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Sticking my oar in...
It is easier to support a family totally dependant on your charity than one shifty relative:-) Definitely. Whilst the poor are worthy of our attention and support, the wealthy need spiritual help, too. My senior pastor found a statistic the other week that basically 9 out of 10 people we encounter do not have a personal relationship with God. So much harvest, so few workers. :) Wade. [Fixed the typo that Peter tried to make fun of.]
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
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Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
Edited by static
Dec. 1, 2003, 05:37:12 AM EST
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Post #128,139
11/30/03 7:45:04 AM
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Senior what?
Do you worship at a wallpaper temple?
:p
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #128,141
11/30/03 8:52:54 AM
11/30/03 8:54:44 AM
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Jesus said....
That the rich are "getting their reward" here on earth.
When the "important people" pray, people listen. But when someone pours out their soul in private, God listens. So who do you want hearing your prayers?
Jesus told Peter that if he wanted to be a leader, he needed to become a servant. Then he demonstrated it by taking off his outer garmet and washing the disciples feet. Which would be like Jack Graham (senior pastor of Prestonwood Baptist church 12,000 members), going into a restaurant and cleaning tables or cleaning a bathroom.
So, I agree. We are going to adopt a family on the tough end of town this Christmas. We're going to take the gifts to them. I want my kids to understand how the other 90% lives, AND I want them to appreciate what they have and the need to share it.
Yes, I'm a Christian in word, and I try to be in deed, also. I want next year to be about helping people as much as we can, 'cause the world ain't gettin' any better.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Nov. 30, 2003, 08:54:44 AM EST
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Post #128,168
11/30/03 3:49:50 PM
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If you ever need a resource for spreading that vision
...we specialize in growing that 10%--demonstrating what poverty is, why Jesus favored the poor, and what a considerate Christian can do to be like Him in that respect. We've been doing it for over 20 years now. [link|http://www.amor.org|http://www.amor.org] Bring a group from your church this Summer, if you can, or bring your fmaily to Family Camp in June. You provide the people; we'll provide the opportunity. Nice to see you exploring the tough neighborhoods of Christendom. ;)
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Post #128,258
12/1/03 11:07:05 AM
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Also, Glen check out Angel Tree
[link|http://www.angeltree.org|http://www.angeltree.org]
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Post #128,385
12/1/03 8:49:26 PM
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We already do something like that....
Our "LifeGroup" is adopting a family. 4 kids, mother, father just died of a stroke 1 day after being laid off.
Glen Austin
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Post #128,178
11/30/03 6:37:49 PM
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Re: Jesus said....
I know your heart is in the right place, but that's not what's needed - to make people feel helpless. What's needed is to answer when called, and you know when that is - and then to go back into your corner and allow God to leave you alone.
-drl
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Post #128,271
12/1/03 11:44:54 AM
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Re: Jesus said....
I know your heart is in the right place, but that's not what's needed - to make people feel helpless.... I'm confused, DeSitter. How is helping people, making them feel helpless? I certainly don't do that when I help people. Nightowl >8# "The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #128,231
12/1/03 6:18:17 AM
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Before you do
Read "The Hogfather" and try not to repeat the knig's exploits.
--
The rich, as usual, are employing the elected.
-- [link|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/|http://unfit2print.blogspot.com/]
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Post #128,269
12/1/03 11:42:11 AM
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Re: Jesus said....
Yes, I'm a Christian in word, and I try to be in deed, also. I want next year to be about helping people as much as we can, 'cause the world ain't gettin' any better. I agree, Glen. I'm also a Christian, and I can't do a lot financially, but I do what I can when I can, in other ways, and when I can do something financially, I do. When the last church before mine now, closed, they left us money to distribute to either the needy or another church. I gave a fellow Affinity member some of that money when her husband had a heartattack, and she had 4 kids and was in financial straits, and I distributed the remaining money to my current church over time. But I help in other ways, or I try to. I try to help people by being there for them, by praying for them, by listening to them. If they need a ride somewhere and I can manage it, I do that. If they need something done that's complicated, like dealing with the FCC for a phone slamming issue, I do that. I don't do it for reward or glory or money. I don't even really do it for the thanks, I do it because it's what I SHOULD do if I can. Fortunately though, I have also learned the difference between genuinely helping people in need and being taken advantage of, because once upon a time, I was in the position of the latter. I don't know much about Islam or Muslems, but I never lump one group of people together for anything and claim they believe the same thing or are the same way. Not even Christians, because many Christians have diverse beliefs also. Each believer believes in his religion in his/her own way, and practices it according to his interpretations of what is expected. I figure if more people helped one another, and practiced more tolerance and acceptance of others differences, within reason, the world would be a better place. Nightowl >8# "The difference between being immature and child-like is that one is what you are, and one is what you choose to be."
Comment by Nightowl {O,O}
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Post #128,194
11/30/03 9:09:15 PM
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Jihad is not a holy war, read on...
Someone may twist the definition of a Jihad but it is not suppoed to be a holy war: [link|http://www.proislam.com/column_jihad.htm|http://www.proislam.com/column_jihad.htm]
No matter how many times Muslims say it, no one will listen. Jihad does not mean holy war. The term jihad is not English; it is Arabic. Jihad translates into English as \ufffdstruggle.\ufffd It is a word that expresses the Muslim need to struggle against his or her inner desires for the good of community and humanity. The more popular \ufffdholy war\ufffd is a western adaptation.
Now people like Osama have twisted it from a struggle into a Holy War to wipe out other cultures and religions from the face of the planet. Not every Muslim thinks that way. Good anology, not every Christian thinks the way they should either. Jesus is not the God of wealth, Satan takes that role. I am poor, but I am proud. Jesus isn't going to give me money, but eternal life were I will never hunger, thirst, or die. I see that are more valuable than wealth. Wealth is only temporary, it only lasts a lifetime and after you die, your relatives and friends fight over who gets what. Jesus has a rejection of wealth, rather to give it up to help the needy. Almost Buddist-like in a way of rejecting wealth and material things. More Spiritual things than material ones.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #128,212
11/30/03 11:19:10 PM
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I understand Jihad...
Jihad is a "holy struggle against evil".
For moderate or liberal Muslims, this is a spiritual "good and evil" struggle, mostly fought in the head, in the heart, and defeated by prayer and study of the Quran.
For extreme Muslims, Jihad is literally a fight to the death.
The problem I have is that, in Christianity, we treat people who claim Jesus as Lord and Savior, then kill, hate, and destroy other people as non-Christians.
Christianity has it's own struggle against the forces of Satan, and for the huge majority of us, that's a spiritual struggle, also.
But, if someone comes claiming Jesus as Lord, then hating a person, it makes about as much sense as the aliens in Mars Attacks, who tell people "we come in peace, take us to your leader", then bring out their ray guns and kill all the Congressmen.
I guess the problem I have with the Muslims is that even the extreme factions of Islam that believe in Jihad are still considered "brothers in the faith". Osama Bin Laden is not considered a heretic by most of the clerics in Islam. They accept that his "struggle" is real, with guns and bombs, and that's OK. Funding pours out of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Iran to keep him operating. That "struggle" is a real fight for a lot of Muslims.
How many Christians would accept Branch Davidians (David Koresh, Waco) as Christian Brothers?
Glen Austin
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Post #128,331
12/1/03 4:04:22 PM
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And this explains the Crusader's sacking of Zara...
and [link|http://www.roman-empire.net/constant/1203-1204.html|Constantinople] during the Fourth Crusade how? Those were Christian cities at the time by the way.
Alex
"Propaganda does not deceive people; it merely helps them to deceive themselves." -- Eric Hoffer
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Post #128,425
12/2/03 1:41:49 AM
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Not all Christians do that
The problem I have is that, in Christianity, we treat people who claim Jesus as Lord and Savior, then kill, hate, and destroy other people as non-Christians.
I don't kill, hate, or destroy non-Christians. I have a Buddist brother-in-law and know many Buddists. My religion is not theirs, yet sometimes my wife and I take some Thai Buddist Monks out for lunch. I have friends of many faiths. I don't try and convert people to Christianity, not unless they have decided to do so themselves. I cannot force them to make that decision. I can tell them about my relationship with Jesus and how it effects me. I don't even hate the Athesists who call me a Dim because I believe in God. Even if I think it is a not so nice way to describe someone who doesn't believe the same as them. I don't think non-believers are stupid because they don't believe in Jesus, for example. I think that thinking they are stupid is wrong. The Branch Davidians didn't have a whole network of terrorists that spans many countries. They were just a bunch of Religious Zealots with guns, and their leader thought he was Jesus reborn. Other Muslims may fear Osama and his terrorist network. They see him as a scholar who has studied scripture. I tell you this, nothing good can ever come from something made of hate and intolerance. Their religion teaches them to respect scholars, to also follow them. I agree that they should reject him because he is not being true to Islam. It must be a political thing, that if they did so, he would have his network attack them, just like they are attacking Iraq. Imagine if the Davidians told the 700 Club to support them or else they will send armed members over to kill them. This is what I think is happening to other Muslims. We simply cannot declare war on Islam and the whole Muslim world. We should find allies in the Muslim world to combat the terrorists. I can see why no interest was chanrged on the money sent to Iraq, it is against Islam to charge interest on a loan. They made it a grant to get the Iraqi people on their side. So it is more of a PR thing, but it is costing us billions to do it.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #128,214
12/1/03 12:26:39 AM
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Jihad is a word with more then one meaning
Good anology, not every Christian thinks the way they should either. There is a subtle difference between believing your understanding of something is correct and believing that somebody that holds a different one must be wrong. The difference has a lot to do with pride, in the Christian sin sense of the word. Someone may twist the definition of a Jihad but it is not suppoed to be a holy war The usage of the word 'jihad' varies between the major two branchs of the Islamic faith. The Sunni use the word in the 'holy war' sense and use the 'inner struggle' sense only in a minor way if at all. The Sufi often use the word in the 'inner struggle' sense first, 'holy war' second. The ProIslam site you linked to appears to be very Sufi. I would almost go so far as to say it's intentionally over stating it's case. Take this page [link|http://www.proislam.com/dawah_warfare.htm|Islam, Warfare and Jihad]. The author quotes 2:190 and 2:192-193 but skips 2:191 which goes like this. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. In the same pattern he quotes 4:75 which tells followers of Islam to free the opprosed, but skips 4:76 which reads Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak. and that is rather general clearance to fight anybody that doesn't follow Islam. No mention at all is to be found of 8:65 where god tells the prophet to urge believers to war nor any mention of 5:33 where god proclaims that those that wage war against Allah should be murdered among other penalties. The Islamic faith covers as broad a spectrum of beliefs as the Christian religion. Both violent and non-violent beliefs are to be found in both groups. Here is the [link|http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/koran.html|Koran] I referenced for english translations, Koran references are chapter:line. Jay
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