No, democracy isn't for everyone.

Post #11,136 by marlowe 10/1/01 4:55:23 PM Reply	No, democracy isn't for everyone. Some cultures make a good go of it, some don't. But this isn't about what's best for them. It's about our safety. Ideally, we should first occupy the problematic nations, then systematically remake the cultures of the occupied countries in such a radical way that they become capable of real democracy. It worked in Japan. But then, we had to bomb their cities to dust first. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but... whatever it takes. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #11,215 by gtall 10/2/01 8:56:29 AM Reply	Re: No, democracy isn't for everyone. Just to play devil's advocate here, shouldn't our safety be enhanced if we were able to bring about what is best for them? How do we know what is best for them? We believe democracy is best, but we cannot know that without recourse to philosophy, shared values, etc. This argument breaks down into a "do what we say because we're right", precisely what seems to be pissing off a number of the non-electorate in some of these countries. I do not think we could occupy the problematic nations. We couldn't afford it and they would fight tooth and nail. I do think, however, that there is a problem no one wants to think about. What if the Muslim nations decided that this planet isn't big enough for themselves and the West and the West must be destroyed. I heard on European Journal on PBS an interview with some muslim idiot in Britain who claimed this was the proper outlook for all right-thinking Muslims. What does the West do in this instance where unremitting war to the death has been declared upon it, its people, and its religions? The Noam Chomsky's of the world would have us declare defeat with honor and commit suicide claiming we made them do it. But how do we survive ourselves without killing most of them, throwing what we like to think of as our western values out the window in the process? Gerard Allwein
Post #11,219 by jb4 10/2/01 9:09:27 AM Reply	You said it yourself: "[...]some muslim idiot[...]" Yes, there are those with that view. There are also Protestants right here in America who believe the Wholly Catholic Church is the root of all evil, and all Catholics (as well as Jews, Muslims, etc. ad nauseum) should be "purged" from the face of the earth. As you stated, these "people" are idiots whose rantings should be give the same amount of credence as the blatherings of Jerry Falwell. At its root, Islam is about peace, and the love of God. Most devout Muslims understand this, and really haven't got time for world domination, purifying the masses, and all that frothing tommyrot that the morons spout. Be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #11,240 by gtall 10/2/01 11:02:01 AM Reply	Re: You said it yourself: "[...]some muslim idiot[...]" I did not mean to imply that most Muslims are on an anti-Christian crusade (snicker). But I did mean to pose the question of what should be our responses if the situation were to degenerate to that point. I do not think it is a moot question simply because demogogues are still capable of leading masses of people. Hell, Mao was a disaster for China but he's still thought of as a god over there. And he had no religion. What if a charismatic Muslim leader pulls a Hilter style stunt and leads the Muslim masses in the style of Hitler? bin Laden has such delusions of grandeur. The rest of his storm troopers are no better. Bush had it right, we've seen this man's incarnation before. I do not think it is likely that bin Laden or some other Hitler will actually succeed in radicalizing the Muslim faithful, but I still do not believe it is an idle question. And it is one we should be mindful of and not inadvertantly aid by short term interests. The enemy is thinking in long term strategic terms. I believe we must think equally in long term strategic terms. Most of my comments in the previous note were rhetorical, not statements of fact or belief. Gerard Allwein
Post #11,315 by Ashton 10/2/01 5:44:47 PM Reply	IMO - that IS the spectre now afloat (What you said) re the galvanizing of hate-speech, the machinations of the spirit of G\ufffdbbels (not merely to be found in Redmond). We know from a century's experience, how intentional mass indoctrination is done: was done. And it worked on a nation with roots that were among the world's better educated populations. The populations involved here - poorly educated, have no such experience of (very much of) the varieties of people / beliefs in the world. They are dirt-poor and see the West as cynically ensuring that little of its vaunted and flaunted wealth is likely ever to 'trickle down' to them. (Never mind that their chosen beliefs have pretended to eschew the er 'material' - they Want those Tee Vees and all that stuff. Too. It seems so.) This will be new. Only academics and the more prescient Sci-Fi authors have faced this sort of dystopia! before. (I have an excellent 'refound' book with a veritable list of the kinds of dystopias explored, at least by mid-70s). What possible defense have (just we in Murica, on the continent) against suicidal, anonymous random folk employing exquisite knowledge of the vulnerabilities of ALL complex systems: towards merely, indiscriminate destruction? It's Karl Popper visited in the actuality + massive improvements in diabolical techno choices. Methinks that is the question we had best ponder and reponder - before every decision about employing our power (arms, treaty, NATO-power especially: destructive force). Without Gandhi + Genghis Khan + a kind of Alan Turing of 'survival tactics' (?) and a large dose of uncharacteristic charm.. I don't want to think about it. Ashton

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