Looking for the smoking gun

Post #110,195 by johnu 7/17/03 4:08:28 PM Reply	Looking for the smoking gun For those of you who didn't see on NBC nightly news, here's a few highlights: [link\|http://www.msnbc.com/news/939347.asp\|Tom Brokaw talks to David Kay \ufffd in charge of WMD search] Brokaw: But there\ufffds no doubt in your mind, I gather, that in fact there was a program and it was substantial. Kay: I\ufffdve already seen enough to convince me, but that\ufffds not the standard. I\ufffdve got to have enough evidence to convince everyone of that. And that\ufffds why we\ufffdre going through this process. ... Brokaw: How long is that going to take? Kay: No longer than it takes. Brokaw: Six months? Kay: I think in six months from now, we\ufffdll have a considerable amount of evidence, and we\ufffdll be starting to reveal that evidence. Will we get to the bottom of the program? It took them over twelve years to build this program. This is a tough country to work in. They hid a lot. I think we\ufffdll probably still be finding stuff well beyond six months. I think we will have a substantial body of evidence before six months. ... Brokaw: David, before the war, I think that it\ufffds fair to say that the American people were led to believe that the Iraqi program of weapons of mass destruction was going to be easy to find, and that when we did find it, it would be easy to explain. Is that a failure on the part of the intelligence that we had? Or is it a political overstatement? Kay: It may well be a success of the Iraqis-for hiding it and dealing with it so it was difficult to find and unmask. I think all of us who have dealt with this program since the war realized what great lengths they went to shield their program. And that\ufffds part of our difficulties. Everything from destroying documents systematically, moving things around. You cannot believe how many cases we have of documents and equipment that are stored in private residences. I mean, no inspection regime was ever geared up for going into private residences. We ourselves - even though we have the power to do it - have great difficulty in doing that. ... Brokaw: What\ufffds the strongest case that you\ufffdll be able to make - is it the biological, chemical or nuclear? Kay: I think we will have a very strong case on all of those. I think we\ufffdll have a strong case on missiles as well that you didn\ufffdt mention. The biological one is one of our highest priorities-and probably will be the case that we may well have the earliest. I just don\ufffdt well know at this point
Post #110,196 by mmoffitt 7/17/03 4:13:44 PM Reply	Hmmmmm....... It took them over twelve years to build this program. They must not have been very good at it, certainly not of "imminent threat" calibre. I mean, they really don't have much to show for their "twelve year" effort, do they? Nice post, though. Good for a chuckle. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #110,206 by Simon_Jester 7/17/03 5:23:47 PM Reply	Chuckle - sure makes you wonder about the people who called Hans Blix incompent, doesn't it? Kay: It may well be a success of the Iraqis-for hiding it and dealing with it so it was difficult to find and unmask. I think all of us who have dealt with this program since the war realized what great lengths they went to shield their program. And that\ufffds part of our difficulties. Everything from destroying documents systematically, moving things around. You cannot believe how many cases we have of documents and equipment that are stored in private residences. I mean, no inspection regime was ever geared up for going into private residences. We ourselves - even though we have the power to do it - have great difficulty in doing that. If he's correct, that there are WMD there - then "success" may be the greatest understatement in history. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Marlowe, and countless (johnu?) considered WMD so easy to find in Iraq that all it took was walking over and looking. But then again, we won't blast them for being wrong...they're Republicans.
Post #110,263 by Silverlock 7/17/03 10:57:56 PM Reply	Wrong Republican is the wrong label to use. True Believer is more accurate. There are Republicans who are not True Believers. (How those few can stay Republican after the clear evidence of their party's leadership's capitulation to the wacko christian/Rushovian crowd, I don't know). ----------------------------------------- [link\|http://www.talion.com/questionw.html\|?W] Where were you in 72?
Post #110,285 by dmarker 7/18/03 5:17:32 AM Reply	All I want explained out of this dirty mess is .. how 'Marlowe the Baptist' still comes to this now quite barren wilderness and can still ramble on with almost the same jihadist zeal ??? I notice that many others who were also so gung-ho over attacking Iraq over the WMD issue have skulked off or dramatically 'seen the light' <g> Cheers Doug (I wonder if our modern day Baptist will ever get to have his most warped organ & its casing, on a silver platter :-)
Post #110,286 by deSitter 7/18/03 5:19:06 AM Reply	rofl "Bring me the epaulets of Marlowe the Baptist!" -drl
Post #110,298 by johnu 7/18/03 8:30:45 AM Reply	Blix never would have found this You cannot believe how many cases we have of documents and equipment that are stored in private residences. I mean, no inspection regime was ever geared up for going into private residences. We ourselves - even though we have the power to do it - have great difficulty in doing that. Blix would have given us a report saying they found nothing, everyone would have gone home, and 3 - 5 years later, Saddam would be testing his first nuke in the Iraqi desert. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Marlowe, and countless (johnu?) considered WMD so easy to find in Iraq that all it took was walking over and looking. They (and I, if I ever made that statement) were wrong. It's turning out to be more difficult that expected. But then again, we won't blast them for being wrong...they're Republicans. Well, this report comes out in 6 months...just in time for the presidental campaign. If Kay is right when he says "I think we will have a very strong case on all of those [biological, chemical or nuclear]" then you will probably be looking at 4 more years of Republicans. Not the greatest thing in world be but better than Democrats back in control :) Regards, John
Post #110,316 by jbrabeck 7/18/03 10:15:44 AM Reply	Well. . . Imminent threat? Blix would have given us a report saying they found nothing, everyone would have gone home, and 3 - 5 years later, Saddam would be testing his first nuke in the Iraqi desert. (emphasis added) This explains it all Well, this report comes out in 6 months...just in time for the presidental campaign.
Post #110,353 by Simon_Jester 7/18/03 12:14:31 PM Reply	Chuckle....almost... but you're still spinning like a top... Blix would have given us a report saying they found nothing, everyone would have gone home, and 3 - 5 years later, Saddam would be testing his first nuke in the Iraqi desert. You're assuming that the inspectors would go home. Just why would that occur? The only reason inspectors left was because we started bombing again, and their safety was in jeapordy. Furthermore, given that is was more than 5 years between the end of the war and when inspectors left - and given that his WMD programs are SO hard to find now...you've now proven that the weapons inspectors were doing their jobs and were successful. They (and I, if I ever made that statement) were wrong. It's turning out to be more difficult that expected. Glad to see they've made apologies to Han Blix for being wrong...oh wait...they haven't. Like I said - good thing their Republicans - when Democrats make a mistake, they don't get away with saying "oppzie, we made a little mistake."
Post #110,359 by johnu 7/18/03 1:00:31 PM Reply	Huh? Furthermore, given that is was more than 5 years between the end of the war and when inspectors left - and given that his WMD programs are SO hard to find now...you've now proven that the weapons inspectors were doing their jobs and were successful. Forcing the Iraqis to go to extremes to hide their WMD programs is considered success for you?
Post #110,361 by deSitter 7/18/03 1:12:41 PM Reply	Re: Huh? We have spy satellites. It's in the desert. If you move around in the desert, you make nice big clouds of dust. So, I suppose they did everything on windless nights, in total darkness. -drl
Post #110,365 by dmarker 7/18/03 1:30:53 PM Reply	Re: Huh? Do you have an opinion on Scott Ritter's expert opinions ? I am inclinded to think he had it spot on and yet today there are still people with no qualified expert opinion on the matter, who seem to want to tell us that Ritter's so far proven expert opinions were not as right as they have thus far been - ??? Cheers Doug
Post #110,695 by johnu 7/21/03 1:06:45 PM Reply	Re: Huh? I am inclinded to think he had it spot on and yet today there are still people with no qualified expert opinion on the matter, who seem to want to tell us that Ritter's so far proven expert opinions were not as right as they have thus far been - ??? Well, David Kay is a former weapons inspector and is in Iraq collecting evidence of WMDs. He believes, from the evidence he's seen, that Iraq had WMD programs (chemical, biological, nuclear and missle) and believes he will have enough documentation to prove it. I'll leave it to you to decide if he's qualified enough... Regards, John
Post #110,375 by Simon_Jester 7/18/03 2:28:43 PM Reply	Absolutely.... Forcing the Iraqis to go to extremes to hide their WMD programs is considered success for you? Would you claim that it's a failure? What would you define as a success for the WMD inspection teams then?
Post #110,381 by Arkadiy 7/18/03 3:26:01 PM Reply	Keeping Iraq out of WMD business for the cost of 0 lives and $0.010 billion a year (I am guessing here) is a failure. Keeping Iraq out of WMD business at the cost of $1B and 7 to 20 people a week is a success. Remind me nevr to trust you with my money, would you? -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #110,696 by johnu 7/21/03 1:11:02 PM Reply	Re: Keeping Iraq out of WMD business Keeping Iraq out of WMD business for the cost of 0 lives and $0.010 billion a year (I am guessing here) is a failure. The way I read this story is the WMD program continued, they just moved the evidence to private residences where inspectors would never go. Did I misunderstand David Kay? Regards, John
Post #110,698 by Arkadiy 7/21/03 1:25:59 PM Reply	The evidence was _hidden_ in private homes. The WMD program was mothballed where inspectors could not see it. But it was not "continuing" as in being advanced daily. At least that's my take of it. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #110,724 by Simon_Jester 7/21/03 3:44:12 PM Reply	Give it up.....you can't win... the materials could be hidden in public home, buried beneath a small tree, filled with concrete and rusted beyond use and he would still claim that they had a WMD program ongoing and producing output. Reason has long since gone out the window. Relax. They're going to find a #5 nut that can be used on a #5 bolt that can be used an a centrifuge that can be used to refine uranium that can be used to make a bomb. See! WMD program PROOF!
Post #110,706 by jb4 7/21/03 1:54:11 PM Reply	OK then, come back to us in 6 months... Well, this report comes out in 6 months...just in time for the presidental campaign. What a toothsome morsel that is. But OK, come back to us in 6 months, with the report in hand (if, indeed thereis such a report...given this "administration"'s past history of suppressing facts that don't fit its preconcieved notions. We'll de-spin and de-bullshit it, and we'll see if there's really any 'there' there. (Breath not being held...) jb4 The difference between Confidence and Ego is that Confidence has respect, while Ego does not. Candyce Burns (my wife)

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