That's what I've been saying all along

Post #103,586 by tuberculosis 5/27/03 12:55:24 AM Reply	That's what I've been saying all along Its like an engine - as soon as you start releasing the energy into other economies, you simply move the location of combustion from our economy to the new one. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,666 by Arkadiy 5/27/03 3:14:52 PM Reply	Interesting... When whole world sends us their money, believing that it's cheaper to make things happen in America, it's investment. When our companies send money abroad believing that it's cheaper to make things happen there, it's economical treason. We've been beneficiaries of a huge inflow of money. Now it's (not quite starting to flow in the other direction, but) slowing down. And just listen to the outcry! Reminds me of digital signatures and encription. When it's protecting my data from eavesdroping, it's cool technology. When it's protecting RIAA's data, it's invasion of privacy and generally inconvinient. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,668 by mmoffitt 5/27/03 3:17:57 PM Reply	Remember your Stalin, tovarisch. "Some are more equal than others." We're Muricans. We're better. We're supposed to have more. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #103,670 by Arkadiy 5/27/03 3:25:49 PM Reply	Nice sarcasm. Wrong direction. Do you agree with me? And, that's not Stalin. That's Orwell, IMHO. Wrong style, anyway. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,816 by mmoffitt 5/28/03 12:26:17 PM Reply	I do agree with you. Don't you agree that under Stalin, some were more equal than others? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #103,673 by tuberculosis 5/27/03 3:43:36 PM Reply	I think you missed my point Its a false economy. OK, go get the work done over there. Now, who buys the stuff you produce? Americans? Out of work Americans or working Americans? If its working Americans but you just laid everyone off because they cost too much then you've just destroyed your customer base - better find a new one. Probably among the people you just hired. The newly affluent ones - with the rising cost of living - who are about to demand more money to cope. Nothing accomplished by the move in the end except to move the locus of economic activity outside the US. If you are an American company with no experience in foreign markets, you just put yourself at a disadvantage besides. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,679 by inthane-chan 5/27/03 4:15:09 PM Reply	It's a variation on the classic prisoner's dilemma. If nobody moves overseas, everything stays the same. If one company moves overseas, they see increased profits, but everybody else remains the same. If all the companies move overseas, the increased profits disappear, AND the current economy goes PIF. They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #103,682 by deSitter 5/27/03 4:20:30 PM Reply	Re: It's a variation on the classic prisoner's dilemma. But, it's a little like white flight - the gutted tax base of the inner cities resulted in them crumbling into eyesores with intractable social problems and no fixes, simple or hard. Once "doing it in Delhi" becomes an accepted management mantra, the economy is doomed for good, unless Congress steps in an makes protectivist laws - which I think they should do. Call it "financial environmentalism" - preserving the monetary base of society. The common theme is all this - unrestricted capitalism with no motive other than profit is extremely destructive of society, be it forests or families. -drl
Post #103,686 by drewk 5/27/03 4:30:56 PM Reply	And once again, solved by my simple solution Part of the reason it's cheaper elsewhere is because they don't have the same regulations local manufacturers do. So instead of tarrifs and protectionism, just say that if you really believe it's inhumane to make someone work without adequate workplace protections, then you shouldn't import goods made elsewhere without them. Just require all goods sold in the U.S. to be manufactured under at least as high standards as local manufacturers meet. Or, if you choose to import them anyway, admit that you really don't care about human suffering and child labor and quality of life and eliminate OSHA. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #103,773 by johnu 5/28/03 8:46:42 AM Reply	Static thinking OK, go get the work done over there. Now, who buys the stuff you produce? Americans? Out of work Americans or working Americans? If its working Americans but you just laid everyone off because they cost too much then you've just destroyed your customer base - better find a new one. People said the same thing decades ago when industrial jobs went overseas. We moved from an industrial economy to a service economy then, and plenty of jobs were created to replace the jobs that went overseas. We are now making a shift from a service economy to an "experience economy". There'll be plenty of jobs available in the new economy. Here's some good reading on the subject: [link\|http://www.managingchange.com/masscust/experien.htm\|http://www.managingc...cust/experien.htm] Regards, John Urberg
Post #103,799 by inthane-chan 5/28/03 10:53:27 AM Reply	Hrm, so we're going to change into the fleshpots of Bangkok? After all, they provide a pretty heavy-duty experience - and for much cheaper than you can get it over here... They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #104,056 by mhuber 5/30/03 2:38:11 AM Reply	Fleshpots are dissapointing... Turns out that the word refers to vessels used to hold stew. Which, while it could be considered an experience item, it is more likely classified as agriculture or service. On the other hand, Bangkok has more need for those than for experiences. ---- Whatever
Post #103,870 by tuberculosis 5/28/03 5:05:02 PM Reply	Voo Doo Economics I don't buy it. "Experiences" are just very elaborate services. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,902 by boxley 5/28/03 8:50:47 PM Reply	explaination of voodoo economics The wealthy piss on you and insist it is rain and we should be grateful for it. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] "I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
Post #103,968 by inthane-chan 5/29/03 10:46:10 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #103967 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=103967\|ICLRPD] They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #103,996 by Arkadiy 5/29/03 1:08:48 PM Reply	Companies aren't thinking about demand nor should they. Their side is supply. As cheap as possible. Demand will take care of itself. If all that money aren't going to US, it is going somewhere. China, Europe, India, Japan - you name it. Someone, somewhere will be able to buy if you produce cheap enough. Now, you may be right and this will lead to a disaster. But that's the way things have been going on since beginning of capitalism. And so far, it mostly led to prices falling, not to degradation of standard of living - in the long run. In the middle of the process, things will be painful. End result - less profit for corporations, since now they have to sell at cheaper prices. The stuff you buy at 99c store costs cents to produce. If 99c becomes a significant amount of money (as it is now in, say, Vietnam), corporations will be forced to sell at 10c. Still at a profit, but much less so. And, isn't it a good thing? -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #104,065 by mmoffitt 5/30/03 8:33:31 AM Reply	On money. If all that money aren't going to US, it is going somewhere. A lot of that "money" simply vanished. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #104,119 by Arkadiy 5/30/03 12:45:18 PM Reply	I am talking flow, not accumulation -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,750 by kmself 5/28/03 2:38:19 AM Reply	Crypto/DRM, import/export, price/value Bad analog: when you're signing data, you're not encrypting anything, you're vouching for authenticity, origin, and integrity. \r\n\r\n When you're encrypting data transmitted to Alice to keep Eve from reading it, you're trusting Alice to keep your secret for you, from Eve, by appropriate key and data management. \r\n\r\n Both of the above are attempts to maintain control over attribution in a public forum, or to keep private discussions private. \r\n\r\n DRM inherently distrusts the recipient of the payload. It is an attempt to make a public disclosure a secret. The goal is inherently at odds with the means, the system is internally conflicted. \r\n\r\n There's more to it than that, I'll try to wrassle it out if I can. \r\n\r\n \r\n As for the economic import/export issues, I'm largely in Drew and Thane's camp: price differential is possible. It's efficient where other factors are equal. Where values held important in the goods-importing country are violated in the goods-exporting country, there's again an inherent conflict. Price is very simple information to convey. More complex measures of "quality" (I'm re-reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it's coloring my thought) are very difficult to convey. Most attempts to do so break down or mutate over time. --\r\n Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n

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