"Economic Treason"

Post #103,531 by lincoln 5/26/03 10:09:29 AM Reply	"Economic Treason" [link\|http://www.statesman.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/editorial_3.html\|opinion] The May 19 article, "Where in the world are the tech jobs going?," largely ignores some ominous implications for this country and our prospects for sustained supremacy on the world stage. Apparently, the cult of the bean counter pulled a coup in advising employers to take money out of circulation in the United States and send it abroad. Each dollar in circulation passes through many hands before completing its rounds. It allows families to afford food, clothing, shelter and the pretty toys these multinational firms produce. When dollars are sent abroad to pay for lower-wage labor, they are lost to the U.S. economy. With fewer tech jobs available, there will be less demand for education in math, science and engineering. Our schools and colleges will suffer, leading us to lose our edge in technology, military hardware, medicine and security. Shipping jobs overseas is a policy of political poison, superpower suicide and economic treason. LARRY S. GILSTRAP Austin gilstrap@texas.net lincoln "Four score and seven years ago, I had a better sig" [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm\|VB/SQL resume] [link\|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm\|Tandem resume] [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #103,544 by pwhysall 5/26/03 12:04:39 PM Reply	Ha! It's also a necessary consequence of globalisation and unfettered capitalism. Lowest bidder wins, NO MATTER WHAT. See, us socialists weren't wrong. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #103,650 by mmoffitt 5/27/03 1:25:49 PM Reply	Amen, brother. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #103,909 by tablizer 5/28/03 9:55:21 PM Reply	Wrongo! Humans are not rational Lowest bidder wins, NO MATTER WHAT. Wrong! I cannot bid min. wage for a programming job. That is because one's worth is shaped by stereotypes and perceptions. I "look" too old and expensive to fit their mental profile. They feel I will bolt when a better opportunity comes along. Everything is about sales and perceptions, not merit. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #103,933 by pwhysall 5/29/03 4:49:34 AM Reply	Have you tried? Or do you think it's just easier to outsource your job to Bombay where they pay less than US minimum wage and they don't have to put up with your bizarre software ideology? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #104,169 by tablizer 5/30/03 5:14:51 PM Reply	Almost right If they sense anything "odd" about you, they would rather rent somebody from India. It is all based on perceptions. Interviews are an acting bit. If they don't care about personality issues, then the distance between them and the Indian is a good thing to them. That is the problem: how to be cheap without scaring them. BTW, why do you call my preferences "bizarre software ideology"? There are many OO skeptics out there, and even more that are agnostic. I would say only about 10 to 25 percent of lead techies are OO zealots. The rest may want to hire somebody knowledgable in OO techniques, but probably don't push OO. They will use OO components and network API's, but don't do "business modeling" in OO for the most part. As far as popularity, OO has tentatively won the component and network API battle, but the biz modeling side is veeeery leaky. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #104,240 by pwhysall 5/31/03 3:49:10 AM Reply	You're religious. Really, no-one I've ever met cares about OOD/OOP as much as you do. And I work in a software house. I admin Windows and VMS for a living, but run Linux at home. Would I reject a job offer because it involved something I don't like or know, like AS/400, or Netware 6?[0] No bloody way. I'll admin ANYTHING if (a) I can learn it and (b) it has a power switch. Get over yourself, learn what needs to be learnt to pay the bills, and focus on something ELSE, like Real Life. But master the English language! A CV with spelling and grammar errors goes straight to the bin. When I receive an email from a colleague and it reads like something a six-year-old wrote, I am minded to think "Unprofessional. Lazy." irrespective of the content because every email client has AT LEAST a spelling checker if not a grammar checker as well. [0] Note the key word "involved". Obviously I can't take a job as a pure Netware admin because my skills are so old, but I could easily revive the skills sufficient to look after a server or two in a heterogenous network. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #104,329 by tablizer 5/31/03 11:49:43 PM Reply	confusing rant with action Get over yourself, learn what needs to be learnt to pay the bills I never said that I would reject a job because it used heavy OO. But, that does not keep me from ranting about it here :-P ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #103,997 by Arkadiy 5/29/03 1:13:39 PM Reply	It's about quality. You may look like you don't have it. No matter how low you bid, "fitness for purpose" is necessary for the sale. You have to convince the buyer that you're a good value for the money. Bad programmers are a _negative_ value. They detract from productivity. And you can't bid negative pay, can you? (I am not saying you're a bad programmer, but you may lok like one) -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,545 by gdaustin 5/26/03 12:21:45 PM 5/26/03 12:30:49 PM Reply	Time for a new political party.... One called the American party or possibly the Patriot Party. The idea is to be "middle of the road" politically (not particularly liberal or conservative), but to actively promote the responsible payment of taxes and responsible citizenship by those running our largest companies. The idea would be to promote things that keep American money in America! Like taxing the business units of corporations with HDQ in other countries as if their HDQ were in this country. Like demanding that companies who build factories for local tax breaks only to close the factories (and keep the breaks) pay back taxes, since they didn't keep the employment end of the bargain. Like making trusts subject to inheritance tax based on the inheritor's percentage of the trust. Like making punitive damages more like a fine, with the proceeds going to funds to pay for other "damaged" parties, or to the government, to pay for things like health care. I'm very conservative "socially" (abortion, accountability issues), but I'm getting more and more liberal economically as I get older. I believe that everyone should at least try to earn their own way, but that we should be compassionate, too. Glen Edited by gdaustin May 26, 2003, 12:30:49 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #103,911 by tablizer 5/28/03 10:02:07 PM Reply	Agreed! Agenda The liberals are too hand-out-happy and victim-a-day, and the conservatives are too tied to corporate greed. Agenda of the new party: 1. Kick out H-1B's. 2. Have specific national issues to vote on directly instead of let Congress decide them all. If the focus is issues instead of people, then things like campaign donations will be less potent. 3. Give the gov leaway to cut gov employee salaries by say up the 20 percent to match economic conditions. There is no reason that their salaries should be totally immune to market pressure. Plus, it may save jobs. Better to have a hacked salary than a hacked job. 4. Tax outsourced services ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #103,586 by tuberculosis 5/27/03 12:55:24 AM Reply	That's what I've been saying all along Its like an engine - as soon as you start releasing the energy into other economies, you simply move the location of combustion from our economy to the new one. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,666 by Arkadiy 5/27/03 3:14:52 PM Reply	Interesting... When whole world sends us their money, believing that it's cheaper to make things happen in America, it's investment. When our companies send money abroad believing that it's cheaper to make things happen there, it's economical treason. We've been beneficiaries of a huge inflow of money. Now it's (not quite starting to flow in the other direction, but) slowing down. And just listen to the outcry! Reminds me of digital signatures and encription. When it's protecting my data from eavesdroping, it's cool technology. When it's protecting RIAA's data, it's invasion of privacy and generally inconvinient. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,668 by mmoffitt 5/27/03 3:17:57 PM Reply	Remember your Stalin, tovarisch. "Some are more equal than others." We're Muricans. We're better. We're supposed to have more. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #103,670 by Arkadiy 5/27/03 3:25:49 PM Reply	Nice sarcasm. Wrong direction. Do you agree with me? And, that's not Stalin. That's Orwell, IMHO. Wrong style, anyway. -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,816 by mmoffitt 5/28/03 12:26:17 PM Reply	I do agree with you. Don't you agree that under Stalin, some were more equal than others? bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #103,673 by tuberculosis 5/27/03 3:43:36 PM Reply	I think you missed my point Its a false economy. OK, go get the work done over there. Now, who buys the stuff you produce? Americans? Out of work Americans or working Americans? If its working Americans but you just laid everyone off because they cost too much then you've just destroyed your customer base - better find a new one. Probably among the people you just hired. The newly affluent ones - with the rising cost of living - who are about to demand more money to cope. Nothing accomplished by the move in the end except to move the locus of economic activity outside the US. If you are an American company with no experience in foreign markets, you just put yourself at a disadvantage besides. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,679 by inthane-chan 5/27/03 4:15:09 PM Reply	It's a variation on the classic prisoner's dilemma. If nobody moves overseas, everything stays the same. If one company moves overseas, they see increased profits, but everybody else remains the same. If all the companies move overseas, the increased profits disappear, AND the current economy goes PIF. They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #103,682 by deSitter 5/27/03 4:20:30 PM Reply	Re: It's a variation on the classic prisoner's dilemma. But, it's a little like white flight - the gutted tax base of the inner cities resulted in them crumbling into eyesores with intractable social problems and no fixes, simple or hard. Once "doing it in Delhi" becomes an accepted management mantra, the economy is doomed for good, unless Congress steps in an makes protectivist laws - which I think they should do. Call it "financial environmentalism" - preserving the monetary base of society. The common theme is all this - unrestricted capitalism with no motive other than profit is extremely destructive of society, be it forests or families. -drl
Post #103,686 by drewk 5/27/03 4:30:56 PM Reply	And once again, solved by my simple solution Part of the reason it's cheaper elsewhere is because they don't have the same regulations local manufacturers do. So instead of tarrifs and protectionism, just say that if you really believe it's inhumane to make someone work without adequate workplace protections, then you shouldn't import goods made elsewhere without them. Just require all goods sold in the U.S. to be manufactured under at least as high standards as local manufacturers meet. Or, if you choose to import them anyway, admit that you really don't care about human suffering and child labor and quality of life and eliminate OSHA. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #103,773 by johnu 5/28/03 8:46:42 AM Reply	Static thinking OK, go get the work done over there. Now, who buys the stuff you produce? Americans? Out of work Americans or working Americans? If its working Americans but you just laid everyone off because they cost too much then you've just destroyed your customer base - better find a new one. People said the same thing decades ago when industrial jobs went overseas. We moved from an industrial economy to a service economy then, and plenty of jobs were created to replace the jobs that went overseas. We are now making a shift from a service economy to an "experience economy". There'll be plenty of jobs available in the new economy. Here's some good reading on the subject: [link\|http://www.managingchange.com/masscust/experien.htm\|http://www.managingc...cust/experien.htm] Regards, John Urberg
Post #103,799 by inthane-chan 5/28/03 10:53:27 AM Reply	Hrm, so we're going to change into the fleshpots of Bangkok? After all, they provide a pretty heavy-duty experience - and for much cheaper than you can get it over here... They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #104,056 by mhuber 5/30/03 2:38:11 AM Reply	Fleshpots are dissapointing... Turns out that the word refers to vessels used to hold stew. Which, while it could be considered an experience item, it is more likely classified as agriculture or service. On the other hand, Bangkok has more need for those than for experiences. ---- Whatever
Post #103,870 by tuberculosis 5/28/03 5:05:02 PM Reply	Voo Doo Economics I don't buy it. "Experiences" are just very elaborate services. "Packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes. Contestants in a suicidal race." - Synchronicity II - The Police
Post #103,902 by boxley 5/28/03 8:50:47 PM Reply	explaination of voodoo economics The wealthy piss on you and insist it is rain and we should be grateful for it. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] "I hit him so hard in the head his dog shat a turd in the shape of Jesus" Leonard Pine
Post #103,968 by inthane-chan 5/29/03 10:46:10 AM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #103967 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=103967\|ICLRPD] They say a city in the desert lies/ The vanity of an ancient king/ But the city lies in broken pieces/ Where the wind howls and the vultures sing/ These are the works of man/ This is the sum of our ambition...
Post #103,996 by Arkadiy 5/29/03 1:08:48 PM Reply	Companies aren't thinking about demand nor should they. Their side is supply. As cheap as possible. Demand will take care of itself. If all that money aren't going to US, it is going somewhere. China, Europe, India, Japan - you name it. Someone, somewhere will be able to buy if you produce cheap enough. Now, you may be right and this will lead to a disaster. But that's the way things have been going on since beginning of capitalism. And so far, it mostly led to prices falling, not to degradation of standard of living - in the long run. In the middle of the process, things will be painful. End result - less profit for corporations, since now they have to sell at cheaper prices. The stuff you buy at 99c store costs cents to produce. If 99c becomes a significant amount of money (as it is now in, say, Vietnam), corporations will be forced to sell at 10c. Still at a profit, but much less so. And, isn't it a good thing? -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #104,065 by mmoffitt 5/30/03 8:33:31 AM Reply	On money. If all that money aren't going to US, it is going somewhere. A lot of that "money" simply vanished. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #104,119 by Arkadiy 5/30/03 12:45:18 PM Reply	I am talking flow, not accumulation -- Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them. --Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
Post #103,750 by kmself 5/28/03 2:38:19 AM Reply	Crypto/DRM, import/export, price/value Bad analog: when you're signing data, you're not encrypting anything, you're vouching for authenticity, origin, and integrity. \r\n\r\n When you're encrypting data transmitted to Alice to keep Eve from reading it, you're trusting Alice to keep your secret for you, from Eve, by appropriate key and data management. \r\n\r\n Both of the above are attempts to maintain control over attribution in a public forum, or to keep private discussions private. \r\n\r\n DRM inherently distrusts the recipient of the payload. It is an attempt to make a public disclosure a secret. The goal is inherently at odds with the means, the system is internally conflicted. \r\n\r\n There's more to it than that, I'll try to wrassle it out if I can. \r\n\r\n \r\n As for the economic import/export issues, I'm largely in Drew and Thane's camp: price differential is possible. It's efficient where other factors are equal. Where values held important in the goods-importing country are violated in the goods-exporting country, there's again an inherent conflict. Price is very simple information to convey. More complex measures of "quality" (I'm re-reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, it's coloring my thought) are very difficult to convey. Most attempts to do so break down or mutate over time. --\r\n Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Post #103,623 by deSitter 5/27/03 12:18:11 PM Reply	Re: "Economic Treason" - harping on that note ..in the Sun-Times: Companies incorporate in Bermuda, then deal with Unc tax-free. Accenture (spinoff of Arthur "Fingers" Andersen) is a big one: [link\|http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-corp27.html\|http://www.suntimes....t-nws-corp27.html] Seems to me these corporate scum are achieving critical press mass for their exploits. -drl
Post #103,626 by deSitter 5/27/03 12:27:12 PM Reply	Add "Economic Terrorism" Good reason to believe radical rightist demagogues are spoiling for a fiscal crisis, to give them an excuse to force their will on the People: [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/27/opinion/27KRUG.html\|http://www.nytimes.c...inion/27KRUG.html] Impeach Bush! Or send him a bag of pretzels. -drl
Post #104,348 by Ashton 6/1/03 3:06:43 AM Reply	He says it so much better than most of us can manage in a few words - but not an iota was a surprise; I have no explanation for why there is so little interest by so many. Dumbth just seems too innocent a concept for this degree of insouciance. Something in the water from Aberdeen? A.

Welcome to IWETHEY!