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New A failed plan...
A Failed Plan?

1. We took Iraq in less time than it took Janet Reno to take
the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

2. It took less time to find evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq than it
took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

3. It took Teddy Kennedy longer to call the police after his Oldsmobile
sunk at Chappaquiddick than it took the 3rd Infantry Division and the
Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard.

4. We took Iraq in less time than it took to count the votes
in Florida in the year 2000!


And the Democrats called the Iraq effort a failed plan?
b4k4^2
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
[link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|2004, the year Microsoft develops for Linux ]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
The DHS [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Cyberer-Stratergery]. The ultimate in Cyber.
New Umm.....
The failure referred to was Bush's *diplomatic* failure. At least that's what I remember coming from *some* Democrats. The war plans being called a failure doesn't ring any bells as statements from Democrats. Some of the left wing blogs maybe.
The world is only a simple place to the simple.
New Is evidence of chemical weapons....
anything like actual chemical weapons

A

War on Iraq 2003 -- US uses chemical and biological weapons (again)
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
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New Huh?
use?
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New depleted uranium rounds
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Carpe Dieu
New not chem or bio.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Ummm.. was that off the top of head?
or straight from ass? Did radiation just get de-programmed to inconsequential when used by the Winners? Or do we need a new TLA, Chem-Bio-Nuke - to satisfy the spreadsheet?

Any idea at all of the compounds which U makes? Ever heard of the "lovely yellow glaze" produced by Uranyl radicals? (Popular on early ceramics) And given the 4 MeV alphas, 50 MeV gammas this heavy metal produces:

No chem, no bio effects eh? Is this the Repo Table of the Nuclides you are (not-) referring to or is this Econ Does Radiochemistry for Dummies ? Now as to the pyrophoric nature of ablating solid U-metal:

It oxidizes with heat and light, into extremely small ---> moderate sized pieces immediately! in air; some to UO3, then many variants along to the popular U3O8 - the different valence states make for a nice soup with acid- or ordinary rain and the whole fucking Periodic Table of Elements. Water-table; food chain; airborne esp. in SAND STORMS yada yada - you twit.

Emitters *inside* homo-sap carcasses are a quite different matter than the external radiation dosage (which will also be many times greater than Iraq's background was.. before 1991). It'll take a few years, of course - but who'll be noticing except the local hospitals -- and those pesky muckrakers who remember to go back and Measure Things.

{sheesh Beep}. Econ majors doing risk assessment? - what next, Market Corrects for Surplus of Uranium by Eliminating the Biological-infestation / Carrier: Uranium returns to earth in the same box. No problemo.


Pshaw.
New Depleted U info from USEmbassy.IT
[link|http://www.usembassy.it/policy/topics/du/|Here] is a bunch of links to various studies, etc.

[link|http://www.usembassy.it/file2003_03/alia/a3031706.htm|Here] is some of the latest they have posted:

I want to first start by talking a little bit about natural uranium, because I think we need to put it into that perspective. Natural uranium is in the soil around our world. It certainly is something that we eat and drink and breathe in every day, because it is in our environment. We all secrete natural uranium in our urine to a certain level. We know that in some areas of the world there's less and some areas there's more -- particularly say in Florida there's a lot of natural uranium in the soil. You get into Colorado, you'll find the same sort of thing. You get into other areas of the world there are variations. And yet we do not see natural uranium causing any recognized medical complication or health problem in people. We have had a lot of studies in uranium miners. We know an awful lot about what uranium does as a heavy metal in people, and we certainly have a lot of studies on depleted uranium in the environment, and I'll talk a little bit later about from the Gulf War some individuals who were involved in friendly fire.

Next slide, please. Our major concern, as I said, is the chemical nature, because uranium, depleted uranium are both heavy metals -- like lead and tungsten and nickel. The kidney, when the depleted uranium is internalized, becomes a target organ, and there are collecting tubules that essentially concentrate the urine that are most severely affected, the first to be affected if there is a dose of natural uranium or depleted uranium above a threshold in the body.

We looked at some 90 Gulf War veterans who were in or on an armored vehicle when it was struck by depleted uranium in friendly fire. And those individuals have been followed on an annual basis now we are talking 12 years post-incident. And we do not see any kidney damage in those individuals -- and this is using very sophisticated medical evaluation of kidneys. They were also followed for other medical problems, and they have had no -- and I'll talk about this a little bit later, but while I'm here, they've had no other medical consequences of that depleted uranium exposure. Now, some of these individuals had amputations, were burned, had deep wounds, so that these individuals, some of them of course do have medical problems. But as far as a consequence of the depleted uranium exposure, we are not seeing anything related to that either from a chemical or radiological effect.

Next slide, please. We've looked at them for cancers. There has been no cancer of bone or lungs, where you would expect them -- to see that. We have seen no leukemias. As I said, there's been about 90 individuals we've followed up, and about 20 of these individuals still have small fragments of depleted uranium in their body. To try to remove that totally from their body would mean amputation or removal of muscles. And our belief is it's better to follow them than to go through any further traumatic type of surgery for the individuals. And, as I've said, we have not seen any untoward medical consequence in these individuals.

As we take a look at transuranics, and that's been brought up -- you may have heard about that -- these are trace elements of like americium, plutonium, neptunium that has been found in depleted uranium in the process of making it. It goes through the same processing plant where nuclear fuel is reprocessed after it is spent. And there trace amounts of transuranics in the depleted uranium. It has been looked at, measured by several different countries and scientists outside of DOD (Department of Defense). The amount of radiation that contributes is less than one percent, and that is believed not to have any medical significance as far as adding to the radiation.

Depleted uranium is 40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium around us. And so when it's outside the body it's just not an issue. It's only when it's internalized -- either by inhaling the dust, the oxide, as Colonel Naughton said when there is penetration of armor, it does self-sharpen and it does create an oxide dust. And there are people who were in or on the vehicles that were struck in friendly fire, who did inhale that oxide, and we have not seen any medical consequence from that. They certainly had the highest dose exposure of anybody in the Gulf War.

Next slide, please. We talked about not seeing any cancers in the kidney or certainly in the lungs or the bone in these individuals. Leukemia became an issue a couple of years ago when the Italians were concerned about peacekeepers in the Kosovo area coming back and having leukemia. We took a look at what are the causes of leukemia. The rates in the United States are usually about two per 100,000 people per year. Cause of leukemia is often unknown. We took a look at data, medical data, from the exposures, atomic bomb blasts in Japan in World War II, people getting chemotherapy. We see an increased rate in leukemia in these individuals, some two to four to six years after that exposure. And we certainly know people exposed to toxic solvents like benzene can have an increased rate of leukemia. But the Italians did the epidemiological study and found basically the rate of leukemia in their military personnel was no greater than their civilian population. And so what was triggered as a cause-effect relationship being in Kosovo where depleted uranium in was fired was not a causal relationship. It was just the natural rate of leukemia in the people who had been peacekeepers in that area.

Next slide, please. There have been over 40 tests done on what happens to depleted uranium from an environmental standpoint, both with shooting munitions through armor, looking at burning of depleted uranium. We had some fires in tanks. We had some fires in depleted uranium. It was in storage capacities. And we have recently done a capstone study where we again have shot depleted uranium through uranium armored tanks to look at what is the amount of oxide created, how long does it stay suspended, what is the particle size. That study has just been completed, but it is not yet written to be published. When it is written it will be published. All of the environmental information about depleted uranium is in our Department of Defense environmental exposure report, and I'll have a website that will show you that at the end of the talk.


There's a lot of info about DU on that site. There doesn't seem to be any evidence from the evidence they present that it's a problem. If you have pointers that counter the links on that site, I'd like to see them. Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Interesting. My information is obsolescent but
not obsolete. I'll go more with the postulates of the [link|http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1999/nd99/nd99vonhippel.html| Bulletin AS] and discount the simpler overviews of the DOD. (I read that as: we think we know enough already)

Since George Wald first campaigned (early '60-s) for reassessment of the max-dosages and the idea of there being a 'threshold' below which there need be no concern: I have noted the stand-off between DOD / Pantex and other Corps vs many unanswered questions. Wald was excoriated for even raising the issue of our ignorance and.. our unwillingness to spend $ to investigate. (I've known some very competent health physicists.)

I note that neither of the groups pays much attention to the migration of chemical compounds - even in BAS scenario. There is never enough $$ for significant long term studies, certainly not sponsored by DOD - who might afford such. My info comes from a radiological class from long before we were planning to spread around [In '91 - 300 tons?] U-metal. Attention was more on industrial - UF6 and related. There were effects measured of the Uranyl compounds used in ceramic glazes, leaching into foods - but again, little follow-up studies beyond the demonstration of the effect. No studies of an entire population exposed, nor the intentional! spalling of metal particles. Now that we have an entire population.. Will we study?

I'll see what I can find re any non-DOD studies, of any length. It's clear that '91 marks an unprecedented release and that while 90 patients can lead to the assumptions in the DOD links: there are other organs than the kidneys and the time-frame for most heavy-metal effects is lengthy, for small dosages. Combine chemical + ionization long-term: they are guessing.

This won't be a Chernobyl, but we won't know what happens to the dust / major pieces in Iraq until someone spends some money, maps U-distribition - in addition to following medical reports over many years, if the map suggests such. (Most MDs here are pig-ignorant of the scenarios, so unless one knows one needs a specialist.. in Iraq ??)

I think it would take considerable pressure to launch a real study in Iraq. Look what was required before US even began to investigate actual symptoms in the vets. Military are supposed to take risks and are surrounded by haz-materials. I don't deem DOD apt for deciding about migration possibilities of these 300 TONS + whatever we recently added, but the 90 intense exposures are a start for longer-term study. How odd that nobody thought an immediate urinalysis important, knowing the circumstances. Is this DOD 'science'?

Besides, we know what land mines do - know that, after an operation there is rarely any effort to (anytime) later send in people with original maps to remove. DU can't compete with that issue, also unresolved. US Military is adamant about not altering their usage or accounting.

I don't expect much re DU, either.


Ashton

New but

Suppose Osama was hurling DU at our tanks
what kind of weapon would it be classified as then

let's not forget that DU comes from reactors
it includes plutonium, neptunium. etc.

A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
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New Not so's you'd notice
Remember - it's the dross from various isotope separation processes. U-chem is different from other elements so.. sure there's likely to be tiny traces of a whole bunch of stuff. (Besides - alpha emitters are the worst for ingestion; no range but locally: a Hell of a lot of ionization == cell mutation yada. An alpha emitter buried within a heavy metal / ergo a Super-Shielding: is ~as effective as a Bush or Bally speech on Honesty)

On another level - if *they* had them and we didn't -? Screw 'truth' -
Your point is made ;-)


Ashton
New more links
[link|http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0709-07.htm|PU to DU]

quote:

As early as January 2000, the DOE admitted that its DU munitions are spiked with plutonium, neptunium and americium \ufffd "transuranic" (heavier than uranium) fission wastes from inside nuclear reactors.(19) The health consequences here are fearsome: americium -- with a half-life of 7,300 years -- decays to plutonium-239, which is more radioactive than the original americium.

DU "contains a trace amount of plutonium," said the DOE\ufffds Assistant Secretary David Michaels, who wrote to the Military Toxics Project's Tara Thornton January 20, 2000. "Recycled uranium, which came straight from one of our production sites, e.g. Hanford [Reservation, in Richland, Washington], would routinely contain transuranics at a very low level...." Michaels wrote. "We have initiated a project to characterize the level of transuranics in the various depleted uranium inventories," he said.

[link|http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0155201|Cites same govt docs]

A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy
Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET
All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM
Reggae, African and Caribbean Music
[link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
New PU is also EXTREMELY poisonous.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
Expand Edited by imric March 9, 2005, 12:29:11 PM EST
New That's Pu! :)
Alex

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell
New *grin* Whatever - no Pu Pu platter for ME.
Or is that Me?

OK - correction acknowledged... I stand chastised.
[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|
]
Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Hot heavy-metal factoid du jour -
captured en passant over NPR; missed attribution:

In a US study, IQs (in children) dropped 7 points as measured Pb levels in water rose from 1 --> 10 \ufffdgm/liter.

Dunno how selective is Pb for "IQ" VS other heavy metals of similar valence (say). Wonder when last assay of the average Iraqi's water was done - for anything.. or will be, next.

Ah well.. who *really* wants to know? Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol ... RNC, DNC, OSHA

Nahhh.


A.
New actually, we already have such a TLA
ABC

Atomic-Biological-Chemical. Been used in (West) Germany (where it translates into the same TLA...imagine that!) for at least 3 decades.
jb4
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
Rich Cook
New To what standard?
New Re: A failed plan...
I originally posted this elsewhere but it seems appropriate.

No-one has mentioned Saddam's diplomacy - he got France, Germany, and Russia on his side, simply by bribing them (those trade contracts). His diplomats have successfully fostered disention.

Both the French and the Germans thought there would be no down-side to opposing the US. Already we are seeing boycotts of French goods and reduced tourism; America is looking to move military bases out of Germany. Who knows, they may find new homes in Iraq?

As for the world's sympathy, it seems to me that that rapidly turned into, "How much can we squeeze from the US?" Turkey being the most glaring example.

This is actually a great victory for Bush and diplomacy. People have forgotten that diplomacy means nothing if you cannot back up what you say. I'll also cite von Clausvitz, who said that war is an extension of diplomacy. There's an old adage Si pacem vis, pare bellum (If you want peace, prepare for war) which is oh so true.

Just as after Britain regained the Falklands, the world listened to Britain, and begat the fall of the Soviet Union; so now will nations take more notice of the US. In recent years the US has shown considerable weakness by not responding seriously enough to events like the first bombing of the WTC, the events in Somalia, the attack on the USS Cole, etc. That will now change, and America will be the better for it.
qts
New Thank you.
I read it before. I thank you again for posting this.
b4k4^2
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - IT Grand-Master for President
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]
[link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|2004, the year Microsoft develops for Linux ]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
The DHS [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Cyberer-Stratergery]. The ultimate in Cyber.
New Wow.
No-one has mentioned Saddam's diplomacy - he got France, Germany, and Russia on his side, simply by bribing them (those trade contracts).

And we did no bribing to get our vaunted "coalition of the willing"?
Wow.

In recent years the US has shown considerable weakness by not responding seriously enough to events like the first bombing of the WTC,...

Um, where is that Yosuf guy again? Oh yeah, we arrested, prosecuted and jailed him. I remember. What weakness! Apprehending those responsible for a crime and punishing them under the law. Sheesh. What were we thinking? What are we? Some kind of pussy country "governed by law and not by Men"? Sheesh.

the attack on the USS Cole, etc. That will now change, and America will be the better for it.

The Cole. Oh yeah, the event the current cabal was "tired of hearing about" that was "too long ago to do anything about"... Wow. Just, Wow.
bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.
     A failed plan... - (folkert) - (20)
         Umm..... - (Silverlock)
         Is evidence of chemical weapons.... - (andread) - (14)
             Huh? - (bepatient) - (13)
                 depleted uranium rounds -NT - (boxley) - (12)
                     not chem or bio. -NT - (bepatient) - (11)
                         Ummm.. was that off the top of head? - (Ashton) - (10)
                             Depleted U info from USEmbassy.IT - (Another Scott) - (8)
                                 Interesting. My information is obsolescent but - (Ashton) - (7)
                                     but - (andread) - (5)
                                         Not so's you'd notice - (Ashton) - (4)
                                             more links - (andread) - (3)
                                                 PU is also EXTREMELY poisonous. -NT - (imric) - (2)
                                                     That's Pu! :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                         *grin* Whatever - no Pu Pu platter for ME. - (imric)
                                     Hot heavy-metal factoid du jour - - (Ashton)
                             actually, we already have such a TLA - (jb4)
         To what standard? -NT - (Simon_Jester)
         Re: A failed plan... - (qstephens) - (2)
             Thank you. - (folkert)
             Wow. - (mmoffitt)

And my Gramma, too.
71 ms