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New various replies
It's not that the refrigerator is very wide, it's more like the kitchen is extremely small. :)

The hot-water heaters were unusual to me -- our last house had forced air heat and AC. This house has no AC, but it has so many ceiling fans it won't matter. But what's an airing wrench?

I guess it's a boiler, I don't know. I thought the boiler was the hot water heater, but while english is my first language, I don't pay much attention to it. :)

If we consolidate, we'll still have 200 amps, yeah. We have 200 amp service going into the house, it's just that half of it goes into the circuit breaker and half goes into the fuse box.

I called the dining room a living room because I was getting tired of setting up that tour. :)

As to dtcweb.com, that's the first domain name I ever registered. It was supposed to be a site where OS/2 users could find support and information on native multimedia and publishing tools, but I never had the time to develop it properly, and IBM never did what they promised to do to make it plausible. Bastards.

I want to do something else with it, but I don't know what yet. These days, about all that email account does is collect spam. *sigh*
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New air wrench
in a closed liquid system liquid(water in this case) is circulated thru out. If air gets in the line it provides a bubble or stoppage. On each radiator is a small valve that provides an ability to bleed the air out of the system. Like bleeding brakes if yoy have done that. Ensure all are free and easily turnable. At 25 degrees below zero it is a bad time to find an air lock and the bleeder screws are rusted shut.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New Especially since, at 25 below zero...
...an air bubble might mean the water gets "trapped" in that radiator; it doesn't circulate, and... Freezes.

And once you've got a radiator-shaped block of ICE in the radiator in stead of liquid water, bleeding out the air bubble won't help much any more. (Won't even be possible, actually.)

Oh, and if the radiators are connected serially, one blocked one can stop several others from working... So, yeah, you really want to know, *before* winter comes, that your radiators are working.

OTOH, don't let me and the BOx worry you too much: In the house I grew up in, we only had that kind of trouble once or twice in over fifteen years -- through our own fault, for not having checked the radiators in late autumn / early winter.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New How exactly do you check them?
I've never had to maintain these things before, so I'm clueless here.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New There's a little valve usually near the top
You open it up, and air comes out. Once it's spitting good water then it's good to go.

Not a bad idea to do it again 'round midwinter either.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
New If there IS any air in there in the first place...
...then it comes out the way BOx and Jake have described; you open the little bleeder valve(*) and let the bubles out until you get pure water -- not necessarily "pure" in the sense of being particularly clean, but in the sense of being a constant stream, which shows that it's *just* (more or less dirty) water. As opposed to sporadic sploshings, a "stuttering" stream, which tells you it's interspersed with air.

Not to worry, though: Usually, you *don't have* any air trapped in the system to begin with -- why would you? It would have to *get* in there somehow; there would either have to be a leak somewhere, where water drips out and is replaced by air that slips in (to take up the space vacated by that water; "Nature abhors a vacuum", and all that), or you'd have to have opened up the system yourself, like if you exchanged a radiator for a newer one or something.

But, barring any major plumbing jobs on your part, some joint in the piping would have to be leaky -- and since most of the joints in this system are where the pipes connect to the radiators, they're usually handily near the radiators' bleeding valves. And leaking water doesn't vanish without a trace, but usually leaves tell-tale signs: the linoleum, parquet, or whatever other flooring material you have, will probably show stains. Look for discolorations or buckling below the bleeding valves and heat-regulation "taps" (which is usually around where the pipes go down through the floor, if you've got vertical ones) -- even on tiles or glazed concrete, you'd probably get calcium deposits, if the leaking's been going on for a while.

Also, air in the system is often recognizable by the sound it makes; an audible bubbling, gurgling, irregular kind of thing. Usually, you should have to press your ear against a radiator in order to be able to hear the gentle, *constant*, swishing sound of the water itself streaming through the system. (Sometimes, you can even hear the sound of the pump working, down by the boiler, in a radiator on the top floor. If you listen *really* carefully (or have a noisy old pump).)

The third sign you might have air in the system is if a radiator isn't evenly warm. When you fire up the furnace to max heat (normally, a thermostat down by the pump should do this for you as you open more radiators' "heat taps"), if you then notice that one or more regulators don't feel equally hot *all the way up*, then that might be because they're filled with air, not water, up at their tops. Air leads heat much less efficiently than water does, so if there's air behind the metal, less heat will be conducted to your hands than if there were water. (You might have to wait a while to be sure -- the metal itself does conduct, and if it's thick also stores, some heat.)

All in all, this may sound like a tremendous lot of pitfalls and potential problems -- but relax: It's really not all that bad; trust me. All you have to do is, some day before temperatures go below freezing (but it's all to the good if there's a definite nip in the air -- so, late September, early October, where you're at?) check out your heating. You do this by:

1) Make sure that the system's water reservoir (down by the pump, next to the boiler) is full or nearly full with water -- you don't want to *create* any air bubles, by making the system start to suck air.

2) Open the taps on all radiators to full heat. As you do this, examine the pipes and radiators around the joints where the pipes enter the radiators, and the floor below, for water stains and residual encrustations. Oh, and for actual wet water, of course!

3) Wait a while -- not as long as it takes to go to work and come back, but put them on before you do your weekend grocery shopping or whatever, and continue this check-list when you get back a few hours later.

4) When you come home again, the house might be unbearably hot -- this is why it's useful to do this on a cool day; just open some windows! :-) Now walk around and look at each radiator: Does it gurgle? Does it feel evenly hot all the way up? Do you see any water dripping from the pipe joints or the "tap" thingy you turned to max before you left?

If the answers, are no, yes, and no, respectively, for each and every radiator, then you have no worries. If you *want to*, you can of course bleed each one a little, just to see that there really is air-free water running through; but if the answers to the three questions above were the "correct" ones, then in all likelihood that *is* exactly what you'll see.

Ironically, though, the taps themselves are sometimes *conditionally* leaky: Turn them to a position they're not "used to", and they start to dribble a little! The irony is, the most unusual position is often maximum heat, because the system tends to be a tad over-dimensioned. Therefore, you might see some water dribbling from the tap itself -- *just because you're testing*! But if the other indicators I mentioned would suggest no leakage, then you're probably OK anyway... Turn it down to somewhere a little below max (you'll probably feel a range from fully closed to somewhere well below fully open where the tap moves easier), and see if the dribbling stops; it probably will.

This is why you made sure the system had water, checked for stains and water before leaving, and didn't stay away for the whole day: To avoid the *utter* irony of *introducing* air bubbles, or finding water leaks, from taps "unused" to being max open -- due to your very testing for air bubbles, you see?

But really, I expect *if* you run a thorough test like this, all you'll find is that the system works perfectly (apart from one or the other dribbling tap); they usually do.

So, relax.




(*): In the house where I grew up, in Sweden, the socket was a square hole, and the "key" or special wrench was a stub with a square cros section; dimension about 3/16 to 5/16 inch (? Around 5 mm, as I recall).


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Thanks to both!
Sounds like it's pretty straightforward.

We're going to eventually get a generator in case of power failure. There were some problems with that this winter, so I want to be prepared. It won't do to go through all that and have my radiator pipes freeze break on a particularly cold day... :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New pipes wont freeze if they are running
if you lose power in a cold snap crack yer taps open a trickle, prevents freezing. Mandatory in a mobile home in Alaska below 0 power or no.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New Good reminder, Box
- along with the hay-bales around the trailer 'skirts' (much earlier). I passed that one on. Thermodynamics is just a word until you bloody Use It. You'll be reel handy, after the Armageddon Clan get through with playing out their fantasm ;-)


Ashton
New Also, hot water lines freeze first.
At least they did in my experience. :-(

It seems to have to do with more impurities dissolved in hot water which raises the freezing point.

Hot water heat is nice in many respects. But, like anything, it requires maintenance. And if you're like me, as one gets older one gets more intolerant of the summer heat. So adding air conditioning later is much more of a chore than in a forced air system....

Best of luck with the house, Chris!

Cheers,
Scott.
New cheap science experiment
place boiling water in ice cube tray alongside another tray of cold tap water, report back on which freezes first along with an essay on transference,
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Carpe Dieu
New It's different in pipes apparently.
At least according to [link|http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF4/440.html|this] discussion of water freezing in pipes. In an open container, [link|http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF6/650.html|this] discussion of water freezing in a cup, they say that it depends on the environment the water is in:

I never put much credence into these claims until I started reading different accounts of the phenomenon. Most recently, the distinguished scientist and author, Isaac Asimov, in his Book of Facts (Red Dembner Enterprises Corp., 1981), flatly states in one of his "3000 facts," that "Water freezes faster if it is cooled rapidly from a relatively warm temperature than if it is cooled at the same rate from a lower temperature."

This may be true, but only under certain circumstance. Dr. T. Neil Davis (editor of this column from 1976 to 1981) performed his own experiments, and found that only when he used Styrofoam cups at temperatures near zero, did warm water freeze first.

Under almost any other circumstance, especially those which allowed heat to escape through the sides of the container, such as from a metal cup, the colder water froze first.

Insulation being taken into account, we can now attribute the hot water freezing first to the fact that, in hot water, circulation currents move faster, exposing more water to the air, and resultant evaporation (hence, cooling) occurs at a greater rate. Also, boiling the water before exposure to frigid temperatures removes the dissolved air which inhibits freezing in the colder water.


Nothing's simple... :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Umm a typo, I think
[link|http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/meltpt.html|See that and raise ya] ;-)

Alas, water has such nice specific heat and other qualities that.. nice as antifreeze would be (for the rare unthinkable freeze sans power).. down would go the other assets too. (But a little anti-rust might be a nice addition?)


Ashton
who wonders what's in the new Dex -ron? or -joe auto antifreezes, such that it need not be changed so often -?- and is kinder to the aluminum / Fe badness of the emf-series.
(but not wondering yet enough.. to Google for it)


PS - the ice-cube tray trick with hot water, has a prosaic explanation.. [cackle]
New Yabut.
I remember the PB elevation and FP depression stuff from HS chemistry, but I saw what I saw.

It reminds me of my freshman college physics course where the prof did a problem involving static and dynamic friction and concluded "always pump your brakes!" But that simple example of static friction being higher than dynamic friction neglects reaction times, people generally not knowing how to apply brakes to the limits of adhesion, etc., real-world factors that affect braking distances. Car and Driver magazine did an article on someone who ran a driving course who showed that in most cases, with most drivers, (in cars without ABS) that stomping on the brakes and locking up all 4 wheels gave shorter stoping distances than pumping the brakes. (I think we discussed it on ezIWeThey a while ago.)

I suspect that what I saw in the hot water pipes freezing first is more related to air being in the hot water than supercooling, but who knows. It was about 25 years ago and I have no desire to repeat the experiment! :-)

Cheers,
Scott.
New Heh.. F=\ufffdN
was another: ie you'll never accelerate / decel your vehicle > 1G.

(Then sticky rubber + dragsters smoked that Revealed Truth. Called 'gear-teeth', for one obv. explanation)


Question Authority
I didn't think; I experimented.
Wilhelm Roentgen
New as far as antifreeze goes
being on the north slope and scooping frozen slush out of anti freeze barrels that then mixed with water became a true liquid was a great education.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Carpe Dieu
New But that doesn't help for *these* pipes.
Since they're a different system from your kitchen / bathroom tap water, remember?

BTW, Chris: I might have misremembered about the heating water system's tank being down in the basement -- check for an open-top water tank in the attic, too. If you find one, it's probably the expansion tank for the heating system. (Kind of like that plastic container next to the radiator in your car.)


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New No tanks in the attic
just lots of insulation.

We're going to have to do something about the attic. Apparently it needs to be ventillated all year round, so we need to find some way to keep the windows open without letting in the weather. Apparently there are window-mounted fan units that can do this kinda thing. I've never had to pay attention before, so I'll have to look into it.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
New Well.. unless one lives in Iraq___:-)
Good Point.. frankly I've never thought through the migration of all that moisture we try to put back into the air, inside the house - in Winter - 'cause our bodies really hate 20% RH. A house is a gigantic chem-lab and enviro chamber; 50+ years ago - this was all magic.

But we all realize which direction hot-air goes, so it sounds as if there must be some standard attic air-flow treatment (perhaps fans with solenoid-op shutters?) which can get the air + water out befor the lower life forms move in and colonize. I do recall hearing the consequences of putting-in insulation WRONG-way around for the vapor barrier, though! So.. little things mean a Lot!

Luck,

Ashton
New Kewl, thanks.
     Doing my part for the economy - (cwbrenn) - (50)
         *cheer* -NT - (imric)
         14 rooms, lets all go to Albany for vacation! luck -NT - (boxley) - (15)
             Half are closets ;-) - (jbrabeck) - (14)
                 hehe. - (cwbrenn) - (10)
                     Sounds like a dream frat-house, actually. - (static) - (9)
                         Oh, I have a "virtual tour" :) - (cwbrenn) - (8)
                             Re: Oh, I have a "virtual tour" :) - (rcareaga) - (3)
                                 Not impertinent - (cwbrenn) - (2)
                                     new things to learn, zone valves stair avoidance, looks good -NT - (boxley)
                                     "Possessions will fit any available space"? :-) -NT - (static)
                             Nice tour! - (a6l6e6x)
                             Hey, not bad. - (static)
                             Chris... - (folkert) - (1)
                                 There will be cleaning up :) - (cwbrenn)
                 Don't be stupid - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                     recovering old house victim? - (rcareaga) - (1)
                         Old stuff lasts longer... - (kmself)
         Wow, envy! - (deSitter) - (3)
             Err...Ross... - (jb4) - (2)
                 Haven't seen Spinal Tap Yet :/ - (deSitter) - (1)
                     It's a LPRDism too. No excuses. ;-) -NT - (Another Scott)
         A friend used to call that inserting a needle attached to... - (a6l6e6x) - (28)
             House already inspected - (cwbrenn) - (27)
                 Good to know - (Silverlock)
                 Very good! Good luck with it! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
                 Re: House already inspected - (deSitter) - (3)
                     we'll have plenty of room to put you up :) - (cwbrenn) - (2)
                         I'll be in Albany June 20something - (Steve Lowe) - (1)
                             That'd be cool. - (cwbrenn)
                 This seems like perhaps the best place to put these... - (CRConrad) - (20)
                     various replies - (cwbrenn) - (19)
                         air wrench - (boxley) - (17)
                             Especially since, at 25 below zero... - (CRConrad) - (16)
                                 How exactly do you check them? - (cwbrenn) - (15)
                                     There's a little valve usually near the top - (jake123)
                                     If there IS any air in there in the first place... - (CRConrad) - (13)
                                         Thanks to both! - (cwbrenn) - (12)
                                             pipes wont freeze if they are running - (boxley) - (11)
                                                 Good reminder, Box - (Ashton)
                                                 Also, hot water lines freeze first. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                                     cheap science experiment - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         It's different in pipes apparently. - (Another Scott)
                                                     Umm a typo, I think - (Ashton) - (3)
                                                         Yabut. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                                             Heh.. F=\ufffdN - (Ashton)
                                                         as far as antifreeze goes - (boxley)
                                                 But that doesn't help for *these* pipes. - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                     No tanks in the attic - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                         Well.. unless one lives in Iraq___:-) - (Ashton)
                         Kewl, thanks. -NT - (CRConrad)

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