Post #93,191
3/31/03 10:12:40 AM
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Open season on civilians (after 5 seconds)
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/international/worldspecial/31SUIC.html|Anger and Warning After Suicide Attack]
"A crude sign now stands at the checkpoint here where four Americans died when a bomb in a taxi exploded on Saturday. "Roadblock ahead," it reads, in Arabic. "Leave the area or we will fire."
...
"Five seconds," he said today, his voice still laced with anger. "They have five seconds to turn around and get out of here. If they're there in five seconds, they're dead."
The new restrictions effectively blockaded Najaf, a holy city for Shiites from Iraq and beyond, which American commanders had hoped would be a breeding ground for popular dissent against Saddam Hussein's rule.
...
Maj. Gen. Buford C. Blount III, commander of the Third Division, said that tighter security measures were an unfortunate but necessary step to ensure the safety of his troops.
Nevertheless, he acknowledged that the greater vigilance would increase hardships for Iraqi civilians.
"We went into this hoping to keep collateral damage and civilian casualties to a minimum," he said in an interview at the checkpoint today. "They've not let us do that."
Whenever Israel takes such steps (and in fact has never gone as far as this e.g. 5 seconds before shooting) the US State Department has always chimed in saying that Israel needs to take into account the local population etc. and should reduce the chekcpoints. Suddenly when the US faces a similar (but probably less dangerous) situation anything goes. How hypocritical
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Post #93,195
3/31/03 10:27:09 AM
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Yep, I agree
(how's that for scary for you Bluke...I'm agreeing with you.)
some people believe there's a difference of opinion on this - but the facts remain that American troop now recognize that they're lives are in danger from apparent civilians (rather than uniformed troops). They're fighting gureilla tactics and are now taking what they believe are the appropriate steps to protect themselves.
And they are opening themselves up to world criticism in the process.
(Just wait till they run over a unarmed girl with a tank and see the criticism then!)
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Post #93,203
3/31/03 10:56:26 AM
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Not only that ...
"American bulldozers uprooted palm and eucalyptus trees along the road and leveled a two-story home to clear fields of fire for troops on guard. "
So the Americans are also bulldozing houses, I am now waiting for the Rachel Corrie's of the world to come and try to stop the nasty American bulldozers.
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Post #93,198
3/31/03 10:35:58 AM
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No disagreement here.
Suddenly when the US faces a similar (but probably less dangerous) situation anything goes. How hypocritical And a lot of other people in other nations see it also. "We went into this hoping to keep collateral damage and civilian casualties to a minimum," he said in an interview at the checkpoint today. "They've not let us do that." We are the invaders. Because the defenders are NOT grouping themselves out in the desert so we can take them out with missiles, we HAVE to kill civilians? And we haven't even STARTED moving into Baghdad.
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Post #93,218
3/31/03 12:00:06 PM
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Conflicting experiences
[link|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030329/ts_afp/iraq_war_civilians_030329211652|http://story.news.ya...ians_030329211652]
I'm sure the guy guarding the blockade is angry, but likely he was just blowing off steam. Anyone can read the sign and leave, and they're not going to blow up a car full of kids because it was there for six seconds.
Meanwhile in other parts of Iraq, the civilians are realizing that the troops are there to help, and are treating them as guests.
They are very brave. If Saddam is still alive and America doesn't stay with the Iraqis, that whole region will be liquidated.
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Post #93,242
3/31/03 1:32:47 PM
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Not really....
actually it reminds me of stories of Vietnam.
Some locals loved Americans there. Some hated them. The trick was to tell the difference.
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Post #93,295
3/31/03 4:49:49 PM
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I spoke too soon.
[link|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030331/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_us_military&cid=540&ncid=1480|http://story.news.ya...cid=540&ncid=1480]
Not pretty.
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Post #93,350
3/31/03 9:54:36 PM
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US Army keeps it's word ...
and massacres 7 Iraqi civilians [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/international/worldspecial/31CND-VAN.html|Army Army Says U.S. Troops Killed 7 Iraqi Women and Children]
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Post #93,363
3/31/03 10:53:34 PM
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Cheap shot, if the reports are at all correct.
Allegedly they:
Gestured at the oncoming car to stop.
Then fired in the air.
Then fired at the engine (compartment).
THEN fired at occupants - as none of the above caused the vehicle to slow.
To the extent the above version proves correct: cheap shot.
ashton
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Post #93,370
3/31/03 11:02:45 PM
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WashPost version.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61229-2003Mar31.html|Here]. NEAR KARBALA, Iraq, March 31 -- As an unidentified four-wheel drive vehicle came barreling toward an intersection held by troops of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, Capt. Ronny Johnson grew increasingly alarmed. From his position at the intersection, he was heard radioing to one of his forward platoons of M2 Bradley Fighting Vehicles to alert it to what he described as a potential threat.
"Fire a warning shot," he ordered as the vehicle kept coming. Then, with increasing urgency, he told the platoon to shoot a 7.62mm machine-gun round into its radiator. "Stop [messing] around!" Johnson yelled into the company radio network when he still saw no action being taken. Finally, he shouted at the top of his voice, "Stop him, Red 1, stop him!"
That order was immediately followed by the loud reports of 25mm cannon fire from one or more of the platoon's Bradleys. About half a dozen shots were heard in all.
"Cease fire!" Johnson yelled over the radio. Then, as he peered into his binoculars from the intersection on Highway 9, he roared at the platoon leader, "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!"
[...]
Dealing with the gruesome scene was a new experience for many of the U.S. soldiers deployed here, and they debated how the tragedy could have been avoided. Several said they accepted the platoon leader's explanation to Johnson on the military radio that he had, in fact, fired two warning shots, but that the driver failed to stop. And everybody was edgy, they realized, since four U.S. soldiers were blown up by a suicide bomber Saturday at a checkpoint much like theirs, only 20 miles to the south.
[...] :-( Regards, Scott.
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Post #93,380
3/31/03 11:43:25 PM
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Pretty uncertain description, this one -
I read it here as:
The man with radio ordered warning shots, then one in radiator - and it seems that *these didn't happen* -?- or happened way too late? and then he escalated to, STOP THEM! Unclear which of the above (to me).
So it enters the realm of nebulosity and culpability. A C&C fuckup that wasn't cold-blooded so much as failure to follow immediate orders. (If this version is even close-enough to true, natch)
Ugh. 25 mm HE shell (I presume HE) in an SUV.
Ashton
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Post #93,432
4/1/03 2:06:20 AM
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Ash, I'd like to believe they did as claimed but based on FF
incidents, US troops are re-earning their repo for being trigger happy & undisciplined.
I don't know how news is appearing in US papers at the moment but here on a day-to-day basis the headlines (1st 4 pages of a paper) are full of stories of which about a third are not very nice.
The FF incident with the A-10 got so much coverage it was repeated in 2 different reports within most papers.
It is also stated here that our foreign minister was sebt to meet Powell in US to tell him Australia will pull out the moment the war is delared won by US. Our PM has gone on TV saying Australia will have no part in the occpation of Iraq afterwards.
Street demos here are daily & getting uglier. The police have warned a student group not to march anymore & have threatened to arrest them if they try.
Feeling about the slaughter of civillians & the trigger hapiness of US is running high. I can't help feeling that your reports no longer match ours.
I believe Hosni Mabarak's remark was the most chilling international comment on the progress of the event.
Also we are getting regular news reports & video from Indonesia where volunteers are signing up to go fight in Iraq. We have heard that over 4000 Arabs have gone from Jordan to Baghdad to join in. This may continue even after US says it has won.
Doug Marker
Spectres from our past: Beware the future when your children & theirs come after you for what you may have been willing to condone today - dsm 2003
Motivational: When performing activities, ask yourself if the person you most want to be would do, or say, it - dsm 2003
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Post #93,438
4/1/03 2:23:20 AM
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I think not
Allegedly they did all of what you said. However, a Western journalist "embedded" with the US Army division involved in the incident gives a different version of events.
William Branigin of the Washington Post says the vehicle contained 15 people, of whom 10 were killed and two seriously injured.
He also reports that soldiers at the checkpoint failed to fire warning shots in time.
"You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!" the paper quotes Captain Ronny Johnson as telling his platoon leader. [link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2904911.stm|Civilians shot dead by US troops]
This version fits in very well with the comments the troops made yesterday [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/31/international/worldspecial/31SUIC.html|Anger and Warning After Suicide Attack]
" "Five seconds," he said today, his voice still laced with anger. "They have five seconds to turn around and get out of here. If they're there in five seconds, they're dead."
The soldiers did exactly what they said would do yesterday. It is clear that the American troops were not trained for this and are nervous and trigger happy.
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Post #93,451
4/1/03 4:01:54 AM
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OK.. if that's how the other reports are coming in -
then it's looking a lot like Waterloo-light. Heading for -heavy.
And the death of the stupid neologism, embedded reporting.
What a price to pay to maybe.. just maybe muzzle a Prescott Bush dynasty of retards.
Ashton
Hearts and minds are supposed to remain in situ, in vivo.
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