Post #93,148
3/30/03 7:33:13 PM
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60% support the war in exactly the same way???
I don't think so.
Your implication is that once war started, suddenly 3/5 of america adopted EXACTLY THE SAME MINDSET about this war. That's interesting, because I just can't see how you could draw that conclusion. Have you spoken with all of 3/5 of america?
It could mean that 60% of america is so drawn in to all the gadgets of war that they think it's a video game, and skip around singing "tra-la-la, we're at war," and will hold that opinion until enough americans get killed, and then suddenly change their minds. It *could* mean that.
But all that the 60% poll result SHOWS is that 60% of americans support the war. It doesn't say WHY. I doubt it's for the same reason.
I say this because, before war was declared, the percentage of people supporting the war was much lower. I don't think all of a sudden, people said, "oh, wait, war was the better option after all." I think that *perhaps*, if you asked a portion of that 60%, they would say "I didn't think we should have started it, but we're in it now -- to pull out of it now would be disastrous."
(I'm not sure I would agree with that, but I've heard people say it.)
Or MAYBE some think that regardless of their *personal* opinions on the subject, they need to support the president's decision. I have no idea what would bring some to do that, but I know a few guys...
Or MAYBE, or MAYBE, or MAYBE...
There are plenty of reasons why the people who don't support the war believe what they do. To assume there is only one reason why people who DO support the war believe what THEY do might make it easier to "rally the troops" (you know, like saying that Germans like to throw babies up in the air and stab them with bayonettes) but it does NO GOOD WHATSOEVER when you're trying to actually attempt to get someone who supports the war to SEE OTHER VIEWPOINTS.
I have said, on this board, that while I oppose the war I am somewhat uncomfortable with the fact that my stance would allow Saddam Hussein to continue committing atrocities against his people. It is quite reasonable that there are people who support the war because while they might be uncomfortable with how our president went about it, they can't support a stance that would allow Saddam to continue what he's doing. The line between my view and that view is very fine, and dialog focusing on that might just be productive.
What is NOT productive, however, is assuming that person is some bubba-who-chews-tabbacy-and-thinks-war-is-neat-until-too-many-of-our-boys-get-killed-redneck. I'm sure there are a few of them out there -- and the press, who loves a colorful soundbyte, is probably LOOKING for them -- but assuming that EVERY PERSON IN THAT GROUP has the same outlook and perception where war is concerned is every bit as ignorant as you're accusing them of being.
One of the things that has always infuriated me about IWETHEY is the often-voiced assumption that the majority of the world consists of idiots. It is an elitist and arrogant point of view that I vehemently reject, but it shows up here again and again, and your post was just another example of the same old thing.
THAT is my point.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,151
3/30/03 7:45:36 PM
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if it means anything british support for the war is 84%
[link|http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030330-034724-7264r|http://www.upi.com/v...0330-034724-7264r] Overall, the British public appears ready to give them that time. The latest opinion polls, hardened by a disproportionately high number of British deaths compared with U.S. forces, show the public has swung 84 percent in support of seeing the war through to its conclusion. but that also is meaningless, they are supporting their troops, not the war. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,154
3/30/03 7:51:20 PM
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Nice rant.
Gotta take one issue with it, though: One of the things that has always infuriated me about IWETHEY is the often-voiced assumption that the majority of the world consists of idiots. It is an elitist and arrogant point of view that I vehemently reject, but it shows up here again and again, and your post was just another example of the same old thing. Remember, 50% of the population is below average. ;) Okay, now I'll try being a little more serious. Idiots? Naw. Uneducated, unenlightened people without two clues to rub together? Yup. Products of a system that lives on by fleecing people like that, and has a vested interest in generating more? Hell yes. Do I accept the possibility that I might be one of the sheeple? Yup. God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
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Post #93,465
4/1/03 7:45:53 AM
4/1/03 7:51:21 AM
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"A few of them out there"?
There's a hell of a lot more of them out there than "a few". They comprise the majority of Muricans.
Another thing. As I pointed out in a couple of letters I actually got printed in several newspapers during Gulf War 1, I reject "Support our troops, but protest the war" as the pure nonsense that it is. As I rightly pointed out 12 years ago, the only possible reasoning behind such a position is that "the troops are only following orders." The world heard that argument before, in Nuremburg, and rejected it. Back then we held that "it doesn't matter if you dress up like a shrub, you, PERSONALLY, are STILL responsible for your own actions."
The fact that so many Muricans (okay, >= 60% of Muricans) can adopt this position is perhaps the greatest condemnation of a Peeple that can be conceived.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Edited by mmoffitt
April 1, 2003, 07:51:21 AM EST
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Post #93,492
4/1/03 10:59:39 AM
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Majority? And you know this how?
You know it because it makes you feel better, perhaps? Or you have some kind of emprical evidence to show it?
Sure, you might disagree with the "support our troops, protest the war" argument -- but someone who believes that thinks about the war in a way that is NOT THE SAME as someone who believes "support our troops, and thank Gawd we're doin' it!" If you TREAT the positions as identical, you do NOTHING to advance your argument.
But don't let that interfere with your fury...
---
"The fact that so many Muricans (okay, >= 60% of Muricans) can adopt this position is perhaps the greatest condemnation of a Peeple that can be conceived."
---
Really? That's interesting. The GREATEST condemnation? There's no position they can hold that would be MORE condemning? Well then, we must immediately convince 60% of the "Murican Peeple" that we need to wholeheartedly support the random execution of Iraqi citizens -- on television -- by firing squad. I mean, at least then they won't be committing the moral atrocity of having inconsistent
and contradictory opinions on the war...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,618
4/1/03 8:30:29 PM
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Re: And you know this how?
Observation and experience that comes with age. As soon as you graduate from high school and go out in the real world; perhaps even, God forbid, leave this country to experience what utter bullshit you've been spoon-fed since you were a child about other nations and cultures, you will gain a perspective you lack now.
As far as "strongest condemnation" goes I stand by it. No, I cannot think of a single "position they can hold that would be MORE condemning" than their adoption of Nazi reasoning. Embracing Nazi rationale may not be such a big deal to you, it is to me and happily to most inhabitants of this planet. Which is why thousands upon thousands of people the world over have taken to their streets to protest our actions in the ME, they don't like Nazi-think any better than I do.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,703
4/2/03 9:01:53 AM
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Beg your pardon :)
I'm 31. I've been out of high school for quite some time. The "I'm older than you so I know better" is a nice rhetorical trick, though, because the only way the argument can go from there is:
"Uh-uh."
"Uh-huh."
"Uh-uh."
"Uh-huh..."
Oh, but wait, I can already guess your next post:
"Well gee, Chris, given the immaturity and naivette of your post, I just ASSUMED you were still in your mid-teens..."
;)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,704
4/2/03 9:04:51 AM
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With apologies ...
to Mark Twain ;-)
"When I was a young man of 31, I was amazed at what an idiot Mikem was. But when I turned 43, I was amazed at how much he'd learned in just 12 years."
:-)
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,736
4/2/03 10:56:10 AM
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LOL
Well played. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,738
4/2/03 11:00:16 AM
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Sheesh
Take this crap to Flame Off, willya?
You're giving the Politics forum a bad name... ;-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #93,760
4/2/03 12:21:21 PM
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Sorry :)
Er... I'll try to take these things more personally in the future. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,763
4/2/03 12:33:15 PM
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Ha! :-D
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #93,620
4/1/03 8:36:19 PM
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I don't agree
It is not possible to forsake the troops. I want them to win.
The troops are not elected. They can't be protested. We have to have enough faith in our ideas to suppose that on the whole, their commanders are conscientious and military in bearing and character.
The leaders who use these fine people are the only ones deserving of general scorn. I support the troops, and protest these leaders and their plans and their denigration of my country.
-drl
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Post #93,622
4/1/03 8:44:19 PM
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Look closer, grasshopper.
I support the troops, and protest these leaders and their plans and their denigration of my country. And who, exactly, is carrying out the deeds that are bringing on the "denigration of my[our] country"? Further, The troops are not elected. No, they volunteered to be a part of this madness. This excuses them? In what way? Sorry, but I maintain that the lesson of Nuremburg was that "just following orders" doesn't cut it. There is one condition under which I think the "support our troops, protest the war" mantra could be ethical: if there were an active draft. The choices then for member of the militia would be to assist in the horror that is war or go to prison (iirc, Canada is no longer a choice for draft-evaders). But such is not the case - everyone killing people in Iraq right now volunteered to do so. bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,623
4/1/03 8:49:37 PM
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Aye
Look closer:
[image|http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/04/01/international/01lynch.jpg||||]
Free.
-drl
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Post #93,626
4/1/03 8:55:12 PM
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And how many did she needlessly kill to get there?
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,682
4/2/03 7:25:23 AM
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What really bothers me about this: it is racist.
What makes[image|http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/04/01/international/01lynch.jpg|0|||] more important than
[image|http://www.moffitt-tech.com/foo/child1.jpg|0|||] |
[image|http://www.moffitt-tech.com/foo/child2.jpg|0|||] |
Could it be that she's blonde, blue-eyed, young, pretty and those kids are just "mud people"?bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,942
4/2/03 11:00:33 PM
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Hey Ross, I'm still waiting for an answer.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,949
4/2/03 11:08:25 PM
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dont listen to right wing talk radio much do ya
all the rage, the terrified look on the face of the black female cook that rattles the heart of all of the folks. red or yellow black or white iraqi dogs will feel the might /etc.
now why the lily white mainstream press dont care, I dunno the fringes are up in arms over that lady. Maybe it is the distaste of mainstream media to give coverage to the fact that blacks are being exploited by non americans. Certainly explains their (non)coverage of the catastrophe in rhodesia.
thanx.
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,954
4/2/03 11:13:43 PM
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I try to avoid it.
It makes me nauseous to think that there is an audience out there for it.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,961
4/2/03 11:22:20 PM
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naw, its the size of the audience that makes you jitter
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #94,043
4/3/03 10:05:44 AM
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Re: Hey Ross, I'm still waiting for an answer.
Answer for what? A 19 year old schoolgirl has been rescued. That makes me happy. She had no business in a combat zone.
I believe that everyone is connected by a collective unconscious, that receives and stores the good and bad in all our experience. I believe it is racial - or at least societal - suicide to pour the horrors of war into the feminine side of our collective experience. The attempts to remove the natural separation of male and female experience will ultimately lead to, at best, an elimination of the creative tension between masculine and feminine - a world of test-tube babies and starship troopers. I think it is wrong.
-drl
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Post #94,056
4/3/03 10:20:53 AM
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Re: had no business in a combat zone.
Indeed. None of them do. Including the men.
Being of southern origin myself (NC) I should have guessed that a good ol' boy like you would see this rescue as chivalrous.
I guess what I'm bothered by is hearing the incessant stream of how her rescue is "the greatest thing in the world" at the same time I keep seeing in my mind those two dead little Iraqi girls whom, apparently, no one in the US gives two rat shits about. That's my question. How is it "GREAT" that one girl was rescued (and one that voluteered to assist in the killing of thousands at that) and at the same time "well, this is war, kids get killed, it's part of the deal, it is OKAY. And besides, it's not our fault. Yeah, it was our missles fired at a time that we were not at war. But hey, it was Saddam's fault"?
Those kids were far more innocent than a soldier ever will be and we will never know their names.
Sorry, but I still don't get it. It's great we rescued her and okay that we killed those kids?
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #94,230
4/3/03 10:12:04 PM
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Trouble is..
You are speaking from an ethic of adults. You are aware, I think - that there are few adults among the species, today (?) And as Murican Disneyland homogenization rapidly infects the pre-adolescents everywhere (and is welcomed by the adolescents in charge of planning a$$e$$ment$ for future Growth) - well, what did you expect?
I don't think we've at all grasped the significance that - *WE* / the mostly- non-voting Murican Peepul - have allowed to remain in Toyal Control! of our destiny (Even *after* seeing revealed the theocracy and boobocracy which is the Goal of his Agenda):
This not merely asocial but sociopathic ignoramus and his peers/handlers.
IMO the world is far too (sanely!) Afraid of what the US Nuclear Arsenal + a psychopathic cabal Might Do in any next -- to focus upon the humanity which you espouse.
We'd have to graduate into young-adulthood at least, to really alter the simple, ugly truth about our culture: We Love War. (Especially the no-contest kind. Soon to be shown in HDTV, for the Nintendo-Eloi.)
But hang in there... The time for adults is often just after the greatest natural or usually, man-made disasters. It takes Real Attention though, to keep any adult in power. Most adults don't really Want 'Power'. Lust for Power comes from the insecure and neurotic - who yearn for Authority; not trustng their own infantile conscience. Terrible enigma, that.
Ashton
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
B. Russell
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Post #94,370
4/4/03 12:29:32 PM
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Great quote yourself.
I've almost reached the point of, "Well, what is the use? It happened to the Ottoman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Austrian Empire and the Roman Empire. It is our turn."
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #93,648
4/1/03 10:37:30 PM
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problem with an all vol army is hessianism
the elite (and people like mike here) think they are mercenaries, wakenhut folks with better equipment. Rent a cops with tanks. Easier to despise or treat servilely. This explains a lot of the protesters. They are not protesting the war as much as protesting the regime. As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops, they would die anyway by atrocity for the grins and giggles of the sadaamites. Is their life any worse under the invasion? Short time yes. Long term it might make a huge difference. Dont want to support American men and women who think they are fight for truth justice and the american way? Then support them for doing their jobs efficiently like the garbagemen sewer workers and corrections officers who without our lifes would be more miserable than they already are,
thanx.
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,660
4/1/03 11:21:10 PM
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Here's a free clue: don't bet your savings on that.
As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops, they would die anyway by atrocity for the grins and giggles of the sadaamites. Check Afghanistan. While a brutal dictatorship does have its flaws, it is still better than warlordism or civil war. We don't even have a PLAN for helping these people build a better life for themselves. All we have is the belief that they'll be happier serving us than they were under their old regime. Is their life any worse under the invasion? Short time yes. Well, at least you aren't TOTALLY clueless. Long term it might make a huge difference. Then again, it might not. And on the other hand, it might make their lives even worse. Dont want to support American men and women who think they are fight for truth justice and the american way? And now turn that around a bit. Would you support Norman in his idiotic fantasies? I don't care WHAT some idiot THINKS they're fighting for. Wasn't that what got us into Afghanistan? Some idiots who THOUGHT they were fighting for their version of truth and justice (not the American Way). Then support them for doing their jobs efficiently like the garbagemen sewer workers and corrections officers who without our lifes would be more miserable than they already are,
thanx. So those Iraqi civilians are "garbage" or "sewage"? Why not take 10% of the cost of this war (about $7.5 BILLION) and spend it on helping the people who WANT to help their people? Why haven't we helped the Kurds establish a proto-Democracy in all those years we've been "protecting" them from Saddam? Why haven't we even bothered to educate the average Iraqi on WHY his government sucks so much and what OPTIONS he has. This isn't about helping the Iraqis. This is about Bush using our military so we can control the oil in Iraq.
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Post #93,662
4/1/03 11:45:11 PM
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heres a free clue
Our servicemenand women in Iraq did not ask to be there. If you dont want to support them because thaey are idealists, support them as you would garbagemen. So you do not support garbage collectors? Do you leave nothing behind? you dont take dumps? or do you think it doesnt smell so you take your dumps in the street and let the rain disolve it. I did not in anyway equate the iraqi people with certain occupations I equated the service being done to the government of america by its personnel. If you want to educate the Iraqi people by all means go there and do so. Let us know how you make out.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,770
4/2/03 1:12:50 PM
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"...support them as you would garbagemen."
I do. You should see what I'd do if our current regime decided to put $75 BILLION into waste disposal for no justifiable reason. So you do not support garbage collectors? I pay them to take the trash that I put out. Do I "support" them in other ways? No. I did not in anyway equate the iraqi people with certain occupations I equated the service being done to the government of america by its personnel. Garbagemen remove garbage. If you want to equate the military to garbagemen, then SOMEONE is going to be the garbage. Right now it looks like someone's throwing away some civilians.
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Post #93,683
4/2/03 7:27:52 AM
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That's great box.
As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops,... So you either just made my point or at the very least showed us what standard of behavior our troops are living up to. bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,825
4/2/03 4:43:39 PM
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so auswitz camp guards and allied airmen are the same?
I think the guards killed the inmates for heinous reasons, any civilians that died in the bombings were casualties attributed to their political leadership. Same case here. Any and all civilian casualties are directly attributable to hussein et al. Here is a liberal (one) point of view on the war.
[link|http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030401-32833666.htm|http://www.washtimes...0401-32833666.htm]
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,834
4/2/03 5:10:43 PM
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Heh.
The Washington Times, a bastion of liberal thought.
I haven't forgotten the gassings, hell, it was the current crop that called Saddam "the leading force for moderation in the region" at the time he was doing the gassing.
I just don't think that our gassing is any better than theirs. You don't overcome adversaries by becoming just like them.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,874
4/2/03 7:40:34 PM
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I know but the columnist is a bonafide demoleft
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,924
4/2/03 10:39:21 PM
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Democrat != Left. Sorry to disappoint.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,931
4/2/03 10:46:20 PM
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self described card carrying liberal member carter admin
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,934
4/2/03 10:53:02 PM
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Again, Carter != Left.
Although admittedly he was closer than anyone in Murican recent history.
What most fail to understand is that the Southern Leadership Conference wing of the Democratic Party IS THE FAR RIGHT OF THAT PARTY. Making them, at best, middle of the road. It's just that when compared to the goose-steppers on the Right, they look wildly Left.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
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Post #93,938
4/2/03 10:57:03 PM
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nononononono communists all :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #93,641
4/1/03 10:04:07 PM
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A note on your last comment
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that lots of people around here think that most people are idiots. Indeed that seems to be a pretty basic observation.
What bothers me is the associated assumption that IWETHEY manages to escape this trend.
This is an open community. It includes people of many different backgrounds and beliefs. In the pool we have a lot of different abilities and a broad range of experience. This is positive. But aside from the fact that we all are comfortable reading English, and most of us have an unusual degree of interest in computers, we also have a pretty broad spectrum of the possible shortcomings that you can see in humanity...
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #93,762
4/2/03 12:25:55 PM
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The basic assumption bothers me
mostly because I don't think it's true. I think the actual condition is something that could be interpreted as "dumbth" (to borrow a phrase from Ashton) but I've never believed anything is that simple.
The idea that a group is somehow exempt from its own criticisms isn't really a new phenomenon, though, and I don't really expect people to go around admitting their imperfections...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
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Post #93,867
4/2/03 6:47:21 PM
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Idiocy is relative
Set your standard for intelligent behaviour high enough, and virtually everyone will fall below it. Set it low enough, and your average chicken qualifies is brainy.
Moreover, the above misrepresents the situation substantially. Effective definitions of intelligence are contextual - different people are smart in different contexts. And different people apply a different context to judging intelligence, leading to different measurements of the abilities of various people.
When the effective definition of intelligence used is, "Can understand and discuss things in my interest areas," then by virtue of the fact that most of us are pretty specialized, most of the world looks like idiots. (This approach sometimes leads to groupthink.)
When the effective definition of intelligence used is, "Agrees with me," then people look like idiots again, and you are very prone to groupthink. Applying this concept of intelligence is why so many programmers are surprised to find out that there are very capable programmers across the entire spectrum of religious belief. (I have met programmers who are amazed that atheists really can be capable of logical thought, and others who are amazed that devout Christians can reason.)
And so on, and so forth. With most people thinking that most people are idiots. (Albeit they come to that judgement differently.) They may disagree on who is an idiot, but they agree that most are.
Whatever definition is chosen, most people of my aquaintance who are intellectually active have a standard for basic intelligence that includes being able to read competently if you had the opportunity to learn. And since over half of adults in the US are functionally illiterate despite theoretically having the opportunity to learn (the same is true for Canada BTW), they tend to agree that those people are idiots. Which means that they can agree on how to classify most Americans - and that classification is "idiot".
It could be argued that they are wrong to use that definition that concludes that. But that doesn't change the fact that they do think that way. And they generally don't think that it is bad to think that way - indeed it is easy to get most of them to admit thinking this way.
So let me sign off in idiocy...
Ben (believed by many to be an idiot)
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #93,649
4/1/03 10:41:17 PM
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on your last comment about iwetheyers and idiots
of course with the huge freaking ego's and general brilliance in many different fields there will be those who ascribe the world as comprised of idiots. Its true. Also every member of IWEHEY probably thinks every other member except for a select few who share tastes and views are idiot savants, computer knowledgeable autists. Its an ego thing.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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