Post #93,465
4/1/03 7:45:53 AM
4/1/03 7:51:21 AM
|
"A few of them out there"?
There's a hell of a lot more of them out there than "a few". They comprise the majority of Muricans.
Another thing. As I pointed out in a couple of letters I actually got printed in several newspapers during Gulf War 1, I reject "Support our troops, but protest the war" as the pure nonsense that it is. As I rightly pointed out 12 years ago, the only possible reasoning behind such a position is that "the troops are only following orders." The world heard that argument before, in Nuremburg, and rejected it. Back then we held that "it doesn't matter if you dress up like a shrub, you, PERSONALLY, are STILL responsible for your own actions."
The fact that so many Muricans (okay, >= 60% of Muricans) can adopt this position is perhaps the greatest condemnation of a Peeple that can be conceived.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
Edited by mmoffitt
April 1, 2003, 07:51:21 AM EST
"A few of them out there"?
There's a hell of a lot more of them out there than "a few". They comprise the majority of Muricans.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,492
4/1/03 10:59:39 AM
|
Majority? And you know this how?
You know it because it makes you feel better, perhaps? Or you have some kind of emprical evidence to show it?
Sure, you might disagree with the "support our troops, protest the war" argument -- but someone who believes that thinks about the war in a way that is NOT THE SAME as someone who believes "support our troops, and thank Gawd we're doin' it!" If you TREAT the positions as identical, you do NOTHING to advance your argument.
But don't let that interfere with your fury...
---
"The fact that so many Muricans (okay, >= 60% of Muricans) can adopt this position is perhaps the greatest condemnation of a Peeple that can be conceived."
---
Really? That's interesting. The GREATEST condemnation? There's no position they can hold that would be MORE condemning? Well then, we must immediately convince 60% of the "Murican Peeple" that we need to wholeheartedly support the random execution of Iraqi citizens -- on television -- by firing squad. I mean, at least then they won't be committing the moral atrocity of having inconsistent
and contradictory opinions on the war...
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #93,618
4/1/03 8:30:29 PM
|
Re: And you know this how?
Observation and experience that comes with age. As soon as you graduate from high school and go out in the real world; perhaps even, God forbid, leave this country to experience what utter bullshit you've been spoon-fed since you were a child about other nations and cultures, you will gain a perspective you lack now.
As far as "strongest condemnation" goes I stand by it. No, I cannot think of a single "position they can hold that would be MORE condemning" than their adoption of Nazi reasoning. Embracing Nazi rationale may not be such a big deal to you, it is to me and happily to most inhabitants of this planet. Which is why thousands upon thousands of people the world over have taken to their streets to protest our actions in the ME, they don't like Nazi-think any better than I do.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,703
4/2/03 9:01:53 AM
|
Beg your pardon :)
I'm 31. I've been out of high school for quite some time. The "I'm older than you so I know better" is a nice rhetorical trick, though, because the only way the argument can go from there is:
"Uh-uh."
"Uh-huh."
"Uh-uh."
"Uh-huh..."
Oh, but wait, I can already guess your next post:
"Well gee, Chris, given the immaturity and naivette of your post, I just ASSUMED you were still in your mid-teens..."
;)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #93,704
4/2/03 9:04:51 AM
|
With apologies ...
to Mark Twain ;-)
"When I was a young man of 31, I was amazed at what an idiot Mikem was. But when I turned 43, I was amazed at how much he'd learned in just 12 years."
:-)
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,736
4/2/03 10:56:10 AM
|
LOL
Well played. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #93,738
4/2/03 11:00:16 AM
|
Sheesh
Take this crap to Flame Off, willya?
You're giving the Politics forum a bad name... ;-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #93,760
4/2/03 12:21:21 PM
|
Sorry :)
Er... I'll try to take these things more personally in the future. :)
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?"
- Edward Young
|
Post #93,763
4/2/03 12:33:15 PM
|
Ha! :-D
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #93,620
4/1/03 8:36:19 PM
|
I don't agree
It is not possible to forsake the troops. I want them to win.
The troops are not elected. They can't be protested. We have to have enough faith in our ideas to suppose that on the whole, their commanders are conscientious and military in bearing and character.
The leaders who use these fine people are the only ones deserving of general scorn. I support the troops, and protest these leaders and their plans and their denigration of my country.
-drl
|
Post #93,622
4/1/03 8:44:19 PM
|
Look closer, grasshopper.
I support the troops, and protest these leaders and their plans and their denigration of my country. And who, exactly, is carrying out the deeds that are bringing on the "denigration of my[our] country"? Further, The troops are not elected. No, they volunteered to be a part of this madness. This excuses them? In what way? Sorry, but I maintain that the lesson of Nuremburg was that "just following orders" doesn't cut it. There is one condition under which I think the "support our troops, protest the war" mantra could be ethical: if there were an active draft. The choices then for member of the militia would be to assist in the horror that is war or go to prison (iirc, Canada is no longer a choice for draft-evaders). But such is not the case - everyone killing people in Iraq right now volunteered to do so. bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,623
4/1/03 8:49:37 PM
|
Aye
Look closer:
[image|http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/04/01/international/01lynch.jpg||||]
Free.
-drl
|
Post #93,626
4/1/03 8:55:12 PM
|
And how many did she needlessly kill to get there?
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,682
4/2/03 7:25:23 AM
|
What really bothers me about this: it is racist.
What makes[image|http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/04/01/international/01lynch.jpg|0|||] more important than
[image|http://www.moffitt-tech.com/foo/child1.jpg|0|||] |
[image|http://www.moffitt-tech.com/foo/child2.jpg|0|||] |
Could it be that she's blonde, blue-eyed, young, pretty and those kids are just "mud people"?bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,942
4/2/03 11:00:33 PM
|
Hey Ross, I'm still waiting for an answer.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,949
4/2/03 11:08:25 PM
|
dont listen to right wing talk radio much do ya
all the rage, the terrified look on the face of the black female cook that rattles the heart of all of the folks. red or yellow black or white iraqi dogs will feel the might /etc.
now why the lily white mainstream press dont care, I dunno the fringes are up in arms over that lady. Maybe it is the distaste of mainstream media to give coverage to the fact that blacks are being exploited by non americans. Certainly explains their (non)coverage of the catastrophe in rhodesia.
thanx.
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,954
4/2/03 11:13:43 PM
|
I try to avoid it.
It makes me nauseous to think that there is an audience out there for it.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,961
4/2/03 11:22:20 PM
|
naw, its the size of the audience that makes you jitter
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #94,043
4/3/03 10:05:44 AM
|
Re: Hey Ross, I'm still waiting for an answer.
Answer for what? A 19 year old schoolgirl has been rescued. That makes me happy. She had no business in a combat zone.
I believe that everyone is connected by a collective unconscious, that receives and stores the good and bad in all our experience. I believe it is racial - or at least societal - suicide to pour the horrors of war into the feminine side of our collective experience. The attempts to remove the natural separation of male and female experience will ultimately lead to, at best, an elimination of the creative tension between masculine and feminine - a world of test-tube babies and starship troopers. I think it is wrong.
-drl
|
Post #94,056
4/3/03 10:20:53 AM
|
Re: had no business in a combat zone.
Indeed. None of them do. Including the men.
Being of southern origin myself (NC) I should have guessed that a good ol' boy like you would see this rescue as chivalrous.
I guess what I'm bothered by is hearing the incessant stream of how her rescue is "the greatest thing in the world" at the same time I keep seeing in my mind those two dead little Iraqi girls whom, apparently, no one in the US gives two rat shits about. That's my question. How is it "GREAT" that one girl was rescued (and one that voluteered to assist in the killing of thousands at that) and at the same time "well, this is war, kids get killed, it's part of the deal, it is OKAY. And besides, it's not our fault. Yeah, it was our missles fired at a time that we were not at war. But hey, it was Saddam's fault"?
Those kids were far more innocent than a soldier ever will be and we will never know their names.
Sorry, but I still don't get it. It's great we rescued her and okay that we killed those kids?
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
|
Post #94,230
4/3/03 10:12:04 PM
|
Trouble is..
You are speaking from an ethic of adults. You are aware, I think - that there are few adults among the species, today (?) And as Murican Disneyland homogenization rapidly infects the pre-adolescents everywhere (and is welcomed by the adolescents in charge of planning a$$e$$ment$ for future Growth) - well, what did you expect?
I don't think we've at all grasped the significance that - *WE* / the mostly- non-voting Murican Peepul - have allowed to remain in Toyal Control! of our destiny (Even *after* seeing revealed the theocracy and boobocracy which is the Goal of his Agenda):
This not merely asocial but sociopathic ignoramus and his peers/handlers.
IMO the world is far too (sanely!) Afraid of what the US Nuclear Arsenal + a psychopathic cabal Might Do in any next -- to focus upon the humanity which you espouse.
We'd have to graduate into young-adulthood at least, to really alter the simple, ugly truth about our culture: We Love War. (Especially the no-contest kind. Soon to be shown in HDTV, for the Nintendo-Eloi.)
But hang in there... The time for adults is often just after the greatest natural or usually, man-made disasters. It takes Real Attention though, to keep any adult in power. Most adults don't really Want 'Power'. Lust for Power comes from the insecure and neurotic - who yearn for Authority; not trustng their own infantile conscience. Terrible enigma, that.
Ashton
Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
B. Russell
|
Post #94,370
4/4/03 12:29:32 PM
|
Great quote yourself.
I've almost reached the point of, "Well, what is the use? It happened to the Ottoman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Austrian Empire and the Roman Empire. It is our turn."
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
|
Post #93,648
4/1/03 10:37:30 PM
|
problem with an all vol army is hessianism
the elite (and people like mike here) think they are mercenaries, wakenhut folks with better equipment. Rent a cops with tanks. Easier to despise or treat servilely. This explains a lot of the protesters. They are not protesting the war as much as protesting the regime. As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops, they would die anyway by atrocity for the grins and giggles of the sadaamites. Is their life any worse under the invasion? Short time yes. Long term it might make a huge difference. Dont want to support American men and women who think they are fight for truth justice and the american way? Then support them for doing their jobs efficiently like the garbagemen sewer workers and corrections officers who without our lifes would be more miserable than they already are,
thanx.
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,660
4/1/03 11:21:10 PM
|
Here's a free clue: don't bet your savings on that.
As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops, they would die anyway by atrocity for the grins and giggles of the sadaamites. Check Afghanistan. While a brutal dictatorship does have its flaws, it is still better than warlordism or civil war. We don't even have a PLAN for helping these people build a better life for themselves. All we have is the belief that they'll be happier serving us than they were under their old regime. Is their life any worse under the invasion? Short time yes. Well, at least you aren't TOTALLY clueless. Long term it might make a huge difference. Then again, it might not. And on the other hand, it might make their lives even worse. Dont want to support American men and women who think they are fight for truth justice and the american way? And now turn that around a bit. Would you support Norman in his idiotic fantasies? I don't care WHAT some idiot THINKS they're fighting for. Wasn't that what got us into Afghanistan? Some idiots who THOUGHT they were fighting for their version of truth and justice (not the American Way). Then support them for doing their jobs efficiently like the garbagemen sewer workers and corrections officers who without our lifes would be more miserable than they already are,
thanx. So those Iraqi civilians are "garbage" or "sewage"? Why not take 10% of the cost of this war (about $7.5 BILLION) and spend it on helping the people who WANT to help their people? Why haven't we helped the Kurds establish a proto-Democracy in all those years we've been "protecting" them from Saddam? Why haven't we even bothered to educate the average Iraqi on WHY his government sucks so much and what OPTIONS he has. This isn't about helping the Iraqis. This is about Bush using our military so we can control the oil in Iraq.
|
Post #93,662
4/1/03 11:45:11 PM
|
heres a free clue
Our servicemenand women in Iraq did not ask to be there. If you dont want to support them because thaey are idealists, support them as you would garbagemen. So you do not support garbage collectors? Do you leave nothing behind? you dont take dumps? or do you think it doesnt smell so you take your dumps in the street and let the rain disolve it. I did not in anyway equate the iraqi people with certain occupations I equated the service being done to the government of america by its personnel. If you want to educate the Iraqi people by all means go there and do so. Let us know how you make out.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,770
4/2/03 1:12:50 PM
|
"...support them as you would garbagemen."
I do. You should see what I'd do if our current regime decided to put $75 BILLION into waste disposal for no justifiable reason. So you do not support garbage collectors? I pay them to take the trash that I put out. Do I "support" them in other ways? No. I did not in anyway equate the iraqi people with certain occupations I equated the service being done to the government of america by its personnel. Garbagemen remove garbage. If you want to equate the military to garbagemen, then SOMEONE is going to be the garbage. Right now it looks like someone's throwing away some civilians.
|
Post #93,683
4/2/03 7:27:52 AM
|
That's great box.
As far as needless killing does it make a difference if a baath party dog kills civilians or US troops,... So you either just made my point or at the very least showed us what standard of behavior our troops are living up to. bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,825
4/2/03 4:43:39 PM
|
so auswitz camp guards and allied airmen are the same?
I think the guards killed the inmates for heinous reasons, any civilians that died in the bombings were casualties attributed to their political leadership. Same case here. Any and all civilian casualties are directly attributable to hussein et al. Here is a liberal (one) point of view on the war.
[link|http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20030401-32833666.htm|http://www.washtimes...0401-32833666.htm]
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,834
4/2/03 5:10:43 PM
|
Heh.
The Washington Times, a bastion of liberal thought.
I haven't forgotten the gassings, hell, it was the current crop that called Saddam "the leading force for moderation in the region" at the time he was doing the gassing.
I just don't think that our gassing is any better than theirs. You don't overcome adversaries by becoming just like them.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,874
4/2/03 7:40:34 PM
|
I know but the columnist is a bonafide demoleft
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,924
4/2/03 10:39:21 PM
|
Democrat != Left. Sorry to disappoint.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,931
4/2/03 10:46:20 PM
|
self described card carrying liberal member carter admin
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
Post #93,934
4/2/03 10:53:02 PM
|
Again, Carter != Left.
Although admittedly he was closer than anyone in Murican recent history.
What most fail to understand is that the Southern Leadership Conference wing of the Democratic Party IS THE FAR RIGHT OF THAT PARTY. Making them, at best, middle of the road. It's just that when compared to the goose-steppers on the Right, they look wildly Left.
bcnu,
Mikem
Osama bin Laden's brother could fly in US airspace 9/15/01, but I had to wait for FBI and CIA background checks, 'nuff said?
|
Post #93,938
4/2/03 10:57:03 PM
|
nononononono communists all :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
|
