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New Palestinians like the Jews are the descendents of Abraham
(if you believe that bull) and have been there as long. What they were called is not the issue.
Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800 B.C., the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanites.

"Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes."
-- Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, "Their Promised Land."

The present-day Palestinians' ancestral heritage

"But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin."
-- Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."

The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine

"The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule."
-- Illene Beatty, "Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan."

More on Canaanite civilization

"Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE."
-- The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.

On land ownership:
Under the provisions of the (Ottoman Land) 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine."
-- Rashid Khalidi, "Blaming The Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens
"Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880's...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it."
-- Don Peretz, "The Arab-Israeli Dispute."

Later,
"Britain's high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said 'all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators'...The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation."
-- John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

In my book Ethnic cleansing is morally indefensible no matter where it is!

Jews thrived in Baghdad for 25 centuries before Israel came about! The Zionists "poisoned the well" for Jews in Muslim lands. Accept that responsibility.

No one says there has not been a continuing presence of Jews in Palestine. As I mentioned for 25 centuries in Iraq and an equal time in what is now Tunisia. I guess that makes those countries part of Israel as well.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New interesting only jews may not buy land, all else welcome
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New That's not what is said.
repeating quote:
Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine."
My emphasis. If the buyers were 7th Day Adventists from Transylvania or Buddists from Tibet establishing a colony, the feeling would be the same.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New You still have never answered ...
where were all those millions of Palestinians were hiding when Mark Twain came and visited? And, where were was all that wonderful Arab cultivation in a desolate and barren land?
New Here are some answers.
[link|http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story845.html|Quoting Mark Twain out of context on Palestine].
The quote below (from "The Innocent Abroad" by Mark Twain describing his journey to Lebanon, Syria, and the Holy Land in 1867) has been widely circulated in Israeli text books and media outlets as facts about Palestine in the mid-19th century. As we will conclusively prove below, this quote was purposely taken out of context for the sole purpose of deceiving its readers into thinking that Palestine was empty, destitute, and barren desert; of course until Zionist/Israeli Jews "made" its desert bloom. Mark Twain wrote:

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (Mark Twain, p. 361-362)

Before analyzing what Mark Twain wrote, the following facts should be noted:

* The arable land in Palestine is under 17% of the total land, click here to view Israel's profile at CIA's Worldfact Book.
* Mark Twain's visit occurred during the middle of the hot Mediterranean summer.
* Mark Twain visited the region soon after the hostilities between Christian and Muslims (mostly Druze) in Mount Lebanon and Damascus, where tens of thousands of Christian Arabs were massacred in 1861. This explains his apparent hostility and racist remarks against the Ottoman Turks and Arabs.
* His visit to Palestine was brief by all accounts, which encompassed only the Biblical areas already cited in the Bible.
* No statistical data whatsoever was provided by Mark Twain about Palestine's agriculture or demographic make up.
* Mark Twain always compared the region to American cities and fertile lands, which is clearly unfair. Both are in separate world, environment, government, ... etc., which is similar to comparing impoverished Africa with eastern Europe these days.

It is not only that Mark Twain described Palestine as barren desert, he extended this description to Greece, Lebanon, and Syria. He stated:

"From Athens all through the islands of the Grecian Archipelago, we saw little but forbidden sea-walls and barren hills, sometimes surmounted by three or four graceful columns of some ancient temples, lonely and deserted---a fitting symbol of desolation that has come upon all Greece in these latter ages. We saw no plowed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind, scarcely, and hardly ever an isolated house. Greece is a bleak, unsmiling desert, without agriculture, manufactures, or commerce, apparently." (Mark Twain, p. 203)

"Damascus is beautiful from the mountain. It is beautiful even to foreigners accustomed to luxuriant vegetation, and I can easily understand how unspeakably beautiful it must be to eyes that are only used to the God-forsaken barrenness and desolation of Syria. I should think a Syrian would go wild with ecstasy when such a picture bursts upon him for the first time." (Mark Twain, p. 262)

From the above quote, the reader may get the impression that Greece is empty since he stated: "We saw no plowed fields, very few villages, no trees or grass or vegetation of any kind," on the other hand, he contradict himself on the same page, he stated:

"The nation numbers only eight hundred thousand souls." (Mark Twain, p. 203)
o o o
As Mark Twain entered Nablus and Jaffa cities, he stated:

"The narrow canyon in which Nablous, or Shechem, is situated, in under high cultivation, and the soil is exceedingly black and fertile. It is well watered, and its affluent vegetation gains effect by contrast with the barren hills that tower on either side." (Mark Twain, p. 322)

"We came finally to the noble grove of orange trees in which the Oriental city of Jaffa lied buried." (Mark Twain, p. 360)
o o o
Conclusion

Mark Twain is a renowned American author whose contribution to American literature is immense. On the other hand, what he wrote is filled with dangerous stereotypes, emotions, and in many cases contradictions. So it is dangerous and misleading to quote him and make him an authority of the region solely based on the description of his trip. Israeli and Zionist propagandists are the best of spinning the facts to their advantage, and quoting Mark Twain out of context is classic in this matter.
o o o

From another source:
Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314."
-- Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Hard to imagine the land was desolate.

You know bluke, I have lost count of how many time you have brought up this exact "point". Same old Zionist script. But, I have to thank you for getting me to educate myself on some of these issues. :)
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New isnt finklestein one of yours?
[link|http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm|http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm]
"Finkelstein's analysis also shows that the largest increases of Palestinian Arab population occurred close to Jewish population centers in Palestine, which would argue against the Palestinian contention that the Zionists were dispossessing Arab"
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
New If you look at the immigration table,
you will note that numerically Jews were coming in at several times the number of non-Jews. So, the conclusion I would have is that the non-Jew growth was organic (i.e. like bunnies). The Palestinian Arabs were there to begin with.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Out of context ????
It is not just Mark Twain, but every traveler who visited the area. Were they all dreaming?
In fact here are quotes from the official British report to the League of Nations in 1921 no friend of the Jews [link|http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/herbert.html|An Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine to the League of Nations, June 1921]

"... It is obvious to every passing traveller, and well-known to every European resident, that the country was before the War, and is now, undeveloped and under-populated.
...
The Jewish element ... They developed the culture of oranges and gave importance to the Jaffa orange trade. They cultivated the vine, and manufactured and exported wine. They drained swamps. They planted eucalyptus trees. They practised, with modern methods, all the processes of agriculture. There are at the present time 64 of these settlements, large and small, with a population of some 15,000. Every traveller in Palestine who visits them is impressed by the contrast between these pleasant villages, with the beautiful stretches of prosperous cultivation about them and the primitive conditions of life and work by which they are surrounded. "

Also see [link|http://www.israelaustin.com/israelnow/news2003/3february2003a.asp|here]

"Palestine was described by travelers as a desolate empty, ruined land. Thomas Shaw (1738), Volney (1783, 1784, 1785), James Finn (1878), Alphonse de Lamartine (1835) and Mark Twain (1867) all wrote about it with horror.

Volney described the "ruined" and desolate" country and estimated the total population of the much larger area he saw as no more than 50,000 to 100,000.

Lamartine wrote:

"Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw Indeed no living object, heard no living object, heard no living sound, we found the same void the same silence\ufffdas we should have expected before the entombed gates of Pompeli or Herculaneam\ufffda complete eternal silence reigns in the town, on the highways in the country\ufffdthe tomb of a whole people."(Recollections of the East, vol. 1, pp. 268, 308, London, 1815).

see [link|http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/depopulated.html|here] as well:

"Even the British consul in 1857 that "The country is in considerable degree empty... and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population..."

In the 1860s, it was reported that "depopulation is even now advancing." At the same time, H. B. Tristram noted in his journal that The north and south [of the Sharon plain] land is going out of cultivation and whole villages are rapidly disappearing from the face of the earth. Since the year 1838, no less than 20 villages there have been thus erased from the map [by the Bedouin] and the stationary population extirpated.

Many writers, such as the Reverend Samuel Manning, mourned the atrophy of the coastal plain, the Sharon Plain, "the exquisite fertility and beauty of which made it to the Hebrew mind a symbol of prosperity."
But where were the inhabitants? This fertile plain, which might support an immense population, is almost a solitude.... Day by day we were to learn afresh the lesson now forced upon us, that the denunciations of ancient prophecy have been fulfilled to the very letter -- "the land is left void and desolate and without inhabitants." 29

Report followed depressing report, as the economist-historian Professor Fred Gottheil pointed out: "a desolate country"; 30 "wretched desolation and neglect";31 "almost abandoned now"32 "unoccupied";33 "uninhabited";34 "thinly populated."35


In a book called Heth and Moab, Colonel C. R. Conder pronounced the Palestine of the 1880s "a ruined land." According to Conder,
so far as the Arab race is concerned, it appears to be decreasing rather than otherwise.36 Conder had also visited Palestine earlier, in 1872, and he commented on the continuing population decline within the nine or ten-year interim between his visits:
The Peasantry who are the backbone of the population, have diminished most sadly in numbers and wealth.37 Pierre Loti, the noted French writer, wrote in 1895 of his visit to the land: "I traveled through sad Galilee in the spring, and I found it silent. . . ." In the vicinity of the Biblical Mount Gilboa, "As elsewhere, as everywhere in Palestine, city and palaces have returned to the dust; This melancholy of abandonment, weighs on all the Holy Land." 38

David Landes summarized the causes of the shriveling number of inhabitants:
As a result of centuries of Turkish neglect and misrule, following on the earlier ravages of successive conquerors, the land had been given over to sand, marsh, the anopheles mosquito, clan feuds, and Bedouin marauders. A population of several millions had shrunk to less than one tenth that number-perhaps a quarter of a million around 1800, and 300,000 at mid-century.39

Palestine had indeed become "sackcloth and ashes."

At the end of the nineteenth century, despite the claims of hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees to ancestral rights, the total Arab population of the entire Holy Land was no more than 300,000 a number less than half of those who are presently citizens of Israel!

An increase in Arab population began to take place at the beginning of the twentieth century. The influx of Arabs was a direct consequence of the activity of the Zionists who began to settle into and develop the land in the 1880's. The Jewish pioneers bought up swampy, desolate or desert land and proceeded under horrendous difficulties to restore it to productivity. The increase in the Arab population was directly proportional to the Zionist\ufffds success in their endeavor " to make the swamps fruitful and the desert bloom."

New employment opportunities brought Arabs from Syria, Egypt, and even Saudi Arabia all underdeveloped lands. Thus, a major proportion of the 1948 Arab population of Israel is attributable to the backbreaking endeavors of the Zionists.

British government statistics substantiate the dramatic increase of Arab population in the new Jewish areas, an increase in sharp contrast to the relatively static number of Arabs in the non-Jewish areas,

In addition, the population statistics between 1893 and 1948 regarding the Arab presence are deceiving. All non-Jews are registered in one category and Jews in another. Thus Christians, Pagans, and Jews who did not declare their religion are registered as Arab! The Jewish population just prior to World War I nonetheless numbered in the skewed census as 85,000.

The population of the walled city of Jerusalem in 1900 was about 40,000. 8250 Christians, 12250 moslems, and 20,000 Jews. Source of information "The University Encycolopedia" copyright 1902 by "P.F. Collier." So much for the myth of historically Arab East Jerusalem.

Do you really expect me to believe a word that Edward Said says, Edward Said is a liar. For years he retailed in print the story of his Jerusalem childhood and his family's cruel eviction at the hands of Zionists. The truth is that he grew up in Cairo. Said's fairy tale about his "beautiful Jerusalem house" is only the most trivial of the many carefully constructed lies peddled by Edward Said to advance Palestinian political ends.
New Old Hebrew proverb:
A thousand "for instances" doesn't constitute proof.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New The Arabs on Palestine and Palestinians
[link|http://www.jesuswasaterrorist.com/a_brief_history_of_palestine_israel.htm|A brief history of Palestine]

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."

-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937


"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"

-- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to
Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

-- Delegate of Saudi Arabia to the
United Nations Security Council, 1956,

For 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt ruled the West Bank and Gaza. Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrendar those lands to make up an independent state of Falastin. The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it, much less demanded it.
New Problem: line 2: Israeli Version
That's a flag for propaganda.

Here is map, at a very pro-Israel site which identifies [link|http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/ottomap.html|Palestine Under Turkish Rule: 1517-1917]. So, for 400 years there was a Palestine, but there never were or are any Palestinians?

Why are you so hung up on what people call or don't call themselves? Names come and go. There used to be a [link|http://peace.expoarchive.com/6465/international/intpav43.shtml|United Arab Republic], I went to their pavilion at the World's Fair in NYC in the 1960's. No such place now and the name is available for re-use. How long have people called the Israelis been around?

Look, [link|http://howardbloom.net/jericho.htm|Jericho is the oldest city] in the world. It is the first place were man decided to quit hunting and gathering and to both domesticate animals and cultivate grain. That goes back to 8000 BCE well before the Hebrew invasion of around 1300 BCE.

The nomadic Bedouins preceded the Hebrews as well. But let's not talk about their effect on the ecology. :)

So, back off and allow others to have a claim as well.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
     Islamic World Needs to Look in the Mirror - (deSitter) - (31)
         Re: Islamic World Needs to Look in the Mirror - (cybermace5) - (27)
             What, like the diff between Wermacht & SS ? - (dmarker)
             Why do you say that? - (bluke) - (25)
                 Re: Why do you say that? - (cybermace5) - (1)
                     So, you're here to troll. Nice. -NT - (jake123)
                 And what can be said for Judaism as practiced in Israel? - (a6l6e6x) - (19)
                     What about them? - (bluke) - (18)
                         So perpetual war is an admirable achievement? - (a6l6e6x) - (17)
                             When you compare it to the alternative it sure is - (bluke) - (16)
                                 Jews suck as much as the other assholes -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                                     Very intelligent addition to the debate - (bluke) - (1)
                                         its a FAIR comment, -NT - (boxley)
                                 It is the fault of the Israelis that there is no peace. - (a6l6e6x) - (12)
                                     Myth of an indigenous population - (bluke) - (11)
                                         Palestinians like the Jews are the descendents of Abraham - (a6l6e6x) - (10)
                                             interesting only jews may not buy land, all else welcome -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                 That's not what is said. - (a6l6e6x)
                                             You still have never answered ... - (bluke) - (7)
                                                 Here are some answers. - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
                                                     isnt finklestein one of yours? - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         If you look at the immigration table, - (a6l6e6x)
                                                     Out of context ???? - (bluke) - (1)
                                                         Old Hebrew proverb: - (a6l6e6x)
                                                     The Arabs on Palestine and Palestinians - (bluke) - (1)
                                                         Problem: line 2: Israeli Version - (a6l6e6x)
                 Islam is multifacetted.....at least for a while - (tablizer) - (2)
                     Re: Islam is multifacetted.....at least for a while - (deSitter) - (1)
                         More pearls of wisdom from Desitter - (bluke)
         So who's gonna make `em? - (marlowe) - (1)
             Read "Personal Memoir of US Grant" - (deSitter)
         And their reaction would be . . - (Andrew Grygus)

The natural enemy of the tightrope walker is the common bee.
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