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New You're right.
Maybe I should rephrase "winning" as "we are destroying their military".

The military protects Saddam.

We will destroy their military and kill Saddam.

We will declare "victory".

We will install our pro-US puppet government (just like in Afghanistan).

Over the next few years, we will see increasing "terrorist" activity in Iraq (just like in Afghanistan).

But now is still the time for them to use their "weapons of mass destruction" against our military.

In the future, we'll be facing suicide bombers and snipers (hey, just like in Afghanistan).
New Not need to kill
either drive him out of power, force him to quit, capture him, or kill him. Any one of those will do. Force a rebellion by his opposition so they can take over control of the government is another one.

We tried to do the same to Hitler, but Hitler shot himself in his bunker. Saddam is just another Hitler is you think about it.


"Bill gates cannot guarantee Windows, so how are you going to guarantee my safety?"
-John Crichton to the Emperor of the Scarrans on [link|http://www.farscape.com|FarScape]
New Israel single handedly beat the crap outta...
...practically every major Arab country in the '67 and '73 wars. The result was that Israel survived, but I wouldn't say they managed to get rid of the beligerance against them.

In my opinion, the major steps that the U.S. could take to relieve the tension are (1). Lift sanctions against Iraq; (2). Remove troops from Saudi Soil; (3). Figure a way to solve the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Well, taking over Iraq will result in #1 being accomplished, but it replaces it with the problem of having troops in Iraq - becoming way too involved into the internal affairs of an Arab country. Although #2 should also be accomplished by eliminating the Iraq threat to Saudi Arabia, it has not been stated that we will remove those troops.

And as for #3, that is the ultimate end-game. The Palestinians have the distinction of always siding against the U.S. - though Arafat seems to be quietly biding his time knowing that a Palestinian State is a necessity for any long-term prospects of U.S. success in the region. Bush has been complacent on this issue, and given his diplomatic track record, I'm not especially hopeful that he can work with either the Israelis or Palestinians.

The way I see it, the Bush administration knew that as long as these 3 issues went unresolved, there was no solution in sight. The biggest problem with the U.S. is that we were half-assed committed in Iraq already, with our insistence of the sanctions and our enforcement of the no-fly zones in the North and South. We have been effectively at war with Iraq for the last 12 years, with no end in site. I suspect that when the toll is added up, more people will have died from the sanctions on Iraq then will die from the current assault. No American's had died from the aerial patrols, but they were constantly placing themselves in danger from Iraq.

Bottom line is that Bush is taking a big gamble to force the issue - hoping that eliminating Saddam will allow them the ability to come to a more stable equailibrium (one wonders what would have happened had the U.S. lifted the sanctions and stopped enforcing the no fly zones - i.e. walked away from Iraq with Saddam in power). I think taking out Saddam is a big fucking gamble, fraught with all sorts of complications and the chances for success aren't especially great, but if they could do it, they will have literally pulled off a major coup. That's what the conservatives want you to see - a world made better without the not-so-great dictator. I mostly see just more of the same.

As a final note, too many people are trying to draw parallels with this war and the one in Afghanistan. There is, however, one big difference - the U.S. used Afghan militias to do a large measure of the land-based offensive - i.e. capturing territory. If the U.S. wanted to do the same thing in Iraq, it could have been accomplished by arming and aiding the Kurds in the North and the Shias in the South. Well, relations with Turkey prevent us from using the Kurds, and our distrust of the Iranians prevented us from going with the Shias. The good news is that the U.S. does not owe a debt to any particular warlords in Iraq. The bad news is that there will be a vacuum from which to get leadership.
New Wild Optimism
1. User friendly victory

2. Earn trust of locals

3. COME DOWN SO HARD ON ISRAEL THEY'LL TREMBLE

Of course

1. This will never happen

2. We can't afford it. Someone has to pay for all this.
-drl
New No, the end to terrorism (or at least slowing it down)
Is to have shiite muslims take over the holy places in Saudi Arabia. The wahibis have great sataned us into osama's hand. Their particular brand of Islam produced the taliban. The Saudis and the Pakistanis with Egyptians are responsible for 9/11. If the pope was in charge of teaching militant catholics to do the twin towers I would be happy to stick lutherans in charge of the vatican. We can do no less to those who used their oil wealth to deliberately attack America for no other reason than their blind religious hatred of all things non arab.Let the persians have the place and disarming Iraq is a dam fine way to start it.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
New Re: No, the end to terrorism (or at least slowing it down)
Israel has to address the issue of a Palestinian state. Why are settlers still on the West Bank?
-drl
New If you think a Palestinian state in the West Bank ...
and Gaza will bring peace and stop terrorism, I have a bridge to sell you.

Here are some facts:
1. From 1948-1967 the Arabs (Jordan and Egypt) controlled the West Bank and Gaza. They made no move to create a Palestinian state nor was there any uprising or call by anyone to create one. Neither the UN, the EU states, the US, teh Vatican, or anyone else, dreamt of creating a Palestinian state.
2. In that same time period there was constant terrorism against Israel
3. The PLO was formed in 1964, NOT to liberate the West Bank from Jordan and Gaza from Egypt but to attack Israel

Based on the above, anyone who thinks that establishing a Palestinian state (which never existed in history) in the West Bank and Gaza will bring peace and stop terrorism is deluding themselves. Just look at the example of Lebanon and Hizbullah. Israel withdrew from Lebanon, called in the UN who marked the border, did that stop the conflict, NO!!, now Hizbullah claims that iSrael is occupying more Lebanese territory.

If there is one thing clear from history it is that appeasing a dictator never works, they always want more.
New :-) ya cant appease sharon?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

To a lot of people in California hunting anything but the wild tofualope was equivelent to sacarificing babies to satan. S.M. Stirling
     Michael Moore's letter to Bush. - (Silverlock) - (28)
         Re: Michael Moore's letter to Bush. - (deSitter)
         "Awol" is "AWOL". - (Brandioch)
         Bowling for Iraqis - (orion) - (22)
             Think before typing -NT - (pwhysall)
             Nothing was found and nothing has been used. - (Brandioch) - (20)
                 But stuff will be found. - (jbrabeck) - (8)
                     Exactly. -NT - (Brandioch)
                     Oooh...thats some secret. - (bepatient) - (6)
                         They'll just subcontract out the WMD portion. - (jbrabeck) - (5)
                             Riiiiight -NT - (bepatient) - (3)
                                 Manufactured evidence - (jake123) - (2)
                                     And I'm sure... - (bepatient) - (1)
                                         No, I don't think the company will do it - (jake123)
                             Put it this way. - (Brandioch)
                 Maybe they are saving the best for last - (orion) - (10)
                     This IS the last. - (Brandioch) - (9)
                         Hmmmm. - (ChrisR) - (8)
                             You're right. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                 Not need to kill - (orion) - (6)
                                     Israel single handedly beat the crap outta... - (ChrisR) - (5)
                                         Wild Optimism - (deSitter)
                                         No, the end to terrorism (or at least slowing it down) - (boxley) - (3)
                                             Re: No, the end to terrorism (or at least slowing it down) - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                 If you think a Palestinian state in the West Bank ... - (bluke) - (1)
                                                     :-) ya cant appease sharon? -NT - (boxley)
         Michael Moore's still alive? - (marlowe) - (1)
             I think your thinking of Bush and a certain pretzel. -NT - (Simon_Jester)
         I liked "Roger and Me". - (screamer)

I have fun with that on St Patrick’s day until they start to chase me.
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