Post #8,240
9/11/01 10:23:46 AM
9/11/01 10:28:16 AM
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I presume this means the U.S. is at war.
Of course it will be necessary to find out with who, though that shouldn't be difficult for an operation of this size.
The CIA and the NSA should be called to account if we don't already know. Having them is apparently just an expense with no benefit. This has been obvious for some time.
One thing is certain, this will negetively impact our freedom. There will be immediate calls for censorship, complete control of all communications and a shutdown of the Internet.
Bomb making materials will still be in adequate supply.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,244
9/11/01 10:28:31 AM
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I agree, but with whom?
at first I thought maybe Palestines...but now...maybe drug cartel?
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Post #8,251
9/11/01 10:38:22 AM
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Could be anyone at this point.
Worst case: world trade radicals. This would mean nobody to strike back at and would result in extreme loss of freedom for everyone as the "authorities" try to punish someone.
The Internet would be the first to go since that's where such groups coordinate their activities.
If it's the drug cartels, which I doubt, that would be rather messy and a lot of countries would end up hating Americans more.
If it's Ben Laden, that's a problem too. We can't bomb Afghanastan back into the stone age because the Taliban has already done that.
If it's Israeli radicals trying to make it look like it's Palestinians, that'll be messy too.
If it's Iraq or Iran, we have a major land war on our hands.
No matter what, this is going to be messy and a whole lot of people are going to get hurt one way or another.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,246
9/11/01 10:31:45 AM
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The US should exercise restraint
I think the US should exercise restraint, violence doesn't solve anything, it will just continue the cycle of violence, the US needs to negotiate.
Does this sound familiar? how do you like it now when the shoe is on the other foot.
The truth is I was born and bred in NY and have alot of friends there, I send my condolences to everyone who was hurt or killed.
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Post #8,252
9/11/01 10:39:19 AM
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Bull
Sorry, to disagree....
1. There is no way to negotiate with fanatics.
2. You cannot negotiate from a position of weakness.
Restraint, only until it's readily apparent who is the responsible party. Then retaliate. Failure to do so will continue the belief that the U.S. has become a soft, safe target.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,259
9/11/01 10:46:21 AM
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I agree 100%, but the US State Dept doesn't
After every suicide bombing in Israel the first thing that the State Department says is that Israel should show restraint, this will leadt to a cycle of violence, etc. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If Israel should show restraint then so should the US.
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Post #8,260
9/11/01 10:47:53 AM
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The perpetrators will be embeded within the innocent.
Attacking them will mean killing innocents at a ratio of better than 1000 to 1. The only rationalization for this is, "You let this happen in your country, so you are guilty too".
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,262
9/11/01 10:49:03 AM
9/11/01 10:50:07 AM
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He was just making a point
To everyone who keeps telling the [Israelis/Pelestinians] to exercise restraint in the wake of the latest wave of violence.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Edited by drewk
Sept. 11, 2001, 10:50:07 AM EDT
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Post #8,266
9/11/01 10:54:09 AM
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Exactly
It is easy for the US to tell Israel to exercise restraint after a restaurant is blown up by a suicide bomber, let us see what the US does now when she has been hit by terrorism.
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Post #8,284
9/11/01 11:20:48 AM
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Israel should have exercised restraint.
Joe, you're misunderstanding him. But then, you haven't been following IWETHEY very closely the last couple years, have you? So let me explain, please:
BLuke is an immigrant (Jewish American) to Israel, who has spent the last year and a half or so defending Israel's all-out military war on Palestinian civilians. Now he was being sarcastic against those of us who've said that might not be a good thing.
Apparently he doesn't realize ho misplaced that sarcasm is -- partly, in general, at a moment like this -- but, more specifically, since if it *was* the Palestinians wot dunn it, we've just been proven right.
D'ja think if they *hadn't* been driven to utter desperation by a murderous military machine, they'd have even a fraction their own people's support for gruesome shit like this?
I don't.
Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything About Slimy Demagogues
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Post #8,294
9/11/01 11:41:12 AM
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Re: Israel should have exercised restraint.
I've been reading, occassionally posting, since inception, but I never read the political or flames forums, so if that is where he has posted, I've missed it. Thanks for pointing out how easy it is to "go off the deep end" in response to a misinterpeted statement.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,340
9/11/01 2:37:17 PM
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Blame Israel
It is so easy, everything that goes wrong in the world is the Jews fault. It's an old story, the Jews control the world. This is so pathetic, terrorists (or should I say militants) attack the US and it's Israel's fault.
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Post #8,353
9/11/01 3:04:14 PM
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Oh, stop being such a pathetic, whiny little prick!
BLuke whinges: It is so easy, everything that goes wrong in the world is the Jews fault. If you sordid little wank-stain could only ONCE fucking ADMIT that your precious fucking Chosen People[*] COULD actually, possibly, concievably, be guilty of fucking up every once in an exteremely rare while, then *maybe* your stupid "everybody blames everything wrong in the world on the Jews" whine wouldn't sound quite so fucking stupid. But since you never do, it does.
[*]: Yup, it *is* ironic, innit? Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
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Post #8,370
9/11/01 3:25:57 PM
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I guess Durban was just a bad dream
With all the problems in the world, Israel should be singled out, give me a break.
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Post #8,401
9/11/01 4:02:08 PM
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Whine, whine
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Post #8,372
9/11/01 3:26:41 PM
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I guess Durban was just a bad dream
With all the problems in the world, Israel should be singled out, give me a break.
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Post #8,402
9/11/01 4:02:47 PM
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Whine, whine, whine
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Post #8,759
9/12/01 10:14:18 PM
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Whine whine whine whine?
How about you keep adding a whine until your brain explodes?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,452
9/11/01 8:05:42 PM
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well he might be a whiny etc dont encourage him
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #8,450
9/11/01 8:01:31 PM
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Oh, please.
The Palestinians brought this conflict on themselves. They had a chance to establish a peaceful relationship in 1948, and they didn't even make an effort. Even the other Muslim nations regarded the Palestinians as trash before they became a political cause celebre. And now they all want those yahoos to have a homeland, so long as it's not in *their* country.
Some people are trouble no matter how nice you are to them. In fact, the nicer you are, there more grief they give you. Restraint simply doesn't apply here. It never did.
Bluke's wrong about a lot of things. But this isn't one of them.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,462
9/11/01 10:06:06 PM
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Rather wide brush there, Phil...
Some people feel that way about Roma/Gypsies too....
I don't believe that people should be tarred with such a wide brush.
Whatever the situation in 1948, the reality now is that there are several million people living in the areas occupied by Israel since the 1967 war. They're not going away, and in fact their population is growing quite rapidly. What do you think should be done with them?
Should millions of Palestinians be condemned to squallor for even more years as punishment for the actions of a relative few militants? Do you really think Israel can have a secure existance with millions of poor, angry people on her border and working inside her borders?
I don't believe so.
If restraint doesn't apply here, as you say, then what does? What's the alternative that will give Israel a chance for peace in the next few years?
(You can regard these as rhetorical questions if you'd like, but I'd like to see your answers. Thanks.)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,672
9/12/01 4:24:25 PM
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Here's a question for ya.
If they're living in squalor, and they don't like it, why don't they just up and move to someplace better?
It worked for the ancestors of most American citizens. Not all to the same degree, but that only helps prove my point.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,679
9/12/01 4:34:46 PM
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Many places won't accept them, as you know.
Lots of places have restrictions on immigration, especially on "economic" refugees. Moving isn't much of an option for them. And why should they have to leave?
And you didn't really answer my questions.
Your second comment is non sequitur, IMO. The issue isn't "overpopulation", its the fact that there's a large group of people who aren't going away. Any solution has to recognize that fact and deal with that fact in a constructive way.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,725
9/12/01 6:49:26 PM
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Nobody wanted the Irish in America either.
And still they came. And they're still here.
And incidentally, if nobody, literally nobody, wants them, whose fault is that? They should try to be a bit less bloodthirsty, hmmm?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,728
9/12/01 6:58:36 PM
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And then there's the Mexican migrant workers.
Whom the border patrol are laboring mightily to keep out, but without success.
Did you even stop to think about this for two heartbeats before you decided to flame me? You're not just wrong. You're downright silly.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,784
9/12/01 11:26:34 PM
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Um, I didn't flame you. No offense intended.
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Post #8,934
9/13/01 3:28:04 PM
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Okay. My bad.
Addison and jabberwhatever hurling ignorant scorn at me, and you standing a little too close to them. I'll try to aim more carefully in the future.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,681
9/12/01 4:36:41 PM
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Of all the unbelieveably stupid questions...
No money, no education, no hope. Every visit one of those 3d world countries?
What are they to do? Jump on a plane, fly to Redmond and get a job as a Microsoft certified software engineer?
So, how do they "up and move"?
Where to?
And how do they support themselves once they make that move?
And where do they get the education necessary to improve their "quality of life"?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,722
9/12/01 6:45:50 PM
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Of all the unbelievably stupid objections.
Plenty of immigrants to America had these very same problems. They managed. To get here and stay here, that is. No excuses.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,673
9/12/01 4:28:40 PM
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Here's another one.
If they have an overpopulation problem, why don't they either use rubbers or just cut down on the screwing a bit? Both these things work for the Protestants, so what's the excuse?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,685
9/12/01 4:44:02 PM
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yeah right, another stupid question.
Birth control of any type costs money. I was in one of these 3d world country villages a couple of years ago. At age 13 the girls were forced out of the homes, so they had to find a husband to take care of them. And husbands wanted sex. I saw girls my daughters' age carrying babies.
The boys were given the opportunity for advanced (HS) education, IF the parents could come up with the tuition. $100/YEAR. However, since that was the annual income, only the "upper class" could attend school.
So how do they pay for birth control, or prevent "screwing"?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,726
9/12/01 6:51:49 PM
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Another stupid objection.
Condoms are cheap. And abstinence is free.
And if they'd just stop breeding like bacteria, they'd wouldn't be so poor to begin with. Duh.
If this is the best you can do, why do you even bother?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,932
9/13/01 3:26:24 PM
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Unbelieveable
It's obvious you've never lived, nor seen this type of poverty.
I cannot discuss with you, what you cannot comprehend.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,678
9/12/01 4:34:08 PM
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What does pertain
Short term: containment and control.
Long term: forced conversion to ideas of decency and common sense.
Your rights to self determination and cultural identity end where my nose begins.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,683
9/12/01 4:42:17 PM
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Marlowe for Benevolent (?) Despot!
You make me laugh sometimes, "Phil". :-)
Um, how do you intend to impose your views on "decency and common sense" with respect to these issues on the other 6 B folks who share the planet with us? Hint: it's not late-1945 any more...
And you're still not answering my questions... :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #8,729
9/12/01 7:02:19 PM
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Most of the those six billion aren't a problem.
It's a few yahoo groups, such as the Palestinians, that are the issue. And I've never suggested otherwise.
And shame on you for resorting to sarcasm and misrepresentation, instead of admitting I've got a valid point which you can't answer directly.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #8,247
9/11/01 10:35:00 AM
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get the right heads and place them on sticks
but make damn sure we get the right people. The NSA and CIA have been issuing high alerts for weeks but a tight cell and this kind of warfare is hard to stop. We need to get extremely proactive and let the shoot and loot folks loose unchecked.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #8,248
9/11/01 10:36:34 AM
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lets also not assume it is Arab related either. Other folks
have serious bones to pick with us and similar capabilities.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #8,304
9/11/01 11:53:10 AM
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Definitely must agree
I remember when Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Mike Royko of the Chicago Sun-Times (maybe he had switched to the Chicago Tribune by then) publicly blamed the Arabs in his column after the Oklahoma City bombing. He had to eat major crow after McVeigh was arrested, though his apology came off as lame and hollow. While it's an easy assumption to make, from an American point of view, we have no facts as to who the true perpetrators really are; all we can do is speculate. Right now, they are the most logical of suspects but, as has already been pointed out, which cell or faction? We're hated by pretty much everybody over there.
I used to work for the Chicago Board of Trade and have friends who work in the Sears Tower. I fear for the future of ex-coworkers and long-time friends. Right now my wife is shaking because my wife, children and I just flew from Chicago to Austin yesterday on our return trip from a family vacation on American Airlines. Her brother, who is visiting her family while vacationing from his job in SE Germany, is scheduled to fly home this coming Sunday. If he's grounded for an extra week or two, he won't mind since he's staying at his parents' house, but his employer may not be very open-minded.
BConnors
"Prepare for metamorphosis. Ready, Kafka?"
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Post #8,255
9/11/01 10:42:46 AM
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Kill people?????
You can't kill terrorists, whhat will Richard Boucher and the rest of the State Department say. You need to show restraint.
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Post #8,249
9/11/01 10:37:06 AM
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Andrew, think bigger...
I fully expect a declaration of Martial Law.
God help us all...
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
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Post #8,250
9/11/01 10:37:49 AM
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Let's dust off the Nukes
after all, they want death and destruction, so let's give it to them.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #8,253
9/11/01 10:39:27 AM
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How do you use nukes if it's the world trade radicals?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,256
9/11/01 10:43:32 AM
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Once we find out who's behind it
That's why "dust off" instead of "launch".
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #8,258
9/11/01 10:45:21 AM
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Cooler heads are needed now, Darryl
Let's first try to find out who (or what) is responsible. Then let's go in with guns blazing. Until then, let's use our heads.
A cold, calculating enemy is much more dangerous than an emotion-fired one. Let's be that cold, calculating enemy...to the right target!
jb4
(Resistance is not futile...)
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Post #8,264
9/11/01 10:51:59 AM
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Cycle of violence
If the US retaliates then the other side will retaliate leading to more casualties and a further cycle of violence. After all this is the advice that the US State Dept has been giving Israel the past 11 months.
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Post #8,277
9/11/01 11:12:08 AM
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I don't agree with that advice either.
You can only turn the other cheek so many times.
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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Post #8,342
9/11/01 2:42:57 PM
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All I ask ...
is that the next time Israel is bombed and responds, you have the same reaction as you are having now.
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Post #8,344
9/11/01 2:47:42 PM
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Israel is not innocent either.
Israel was founded by bringing down a government by means of terrorism. That's what started the whole deal. The displaced responded in kind.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,352
9/11/01 3:04:02 PM
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Absolutely not
Learn some history. What government did Israel bring down? The British were a colonial occupying power they were on their way out. I guess then India is also to blame.Israel NEVER sent suicide bombers against anyone.
You have shown the true face of hypocrisy, drop nuclear bombs, who cares how many innocent civilians get killed, so much for human rights? I guess only Americans count? Imagine for a second that Iraq is behind this. Do you think the average Iraqui was involved, and wanted to it? Any country that did this is a dictatorship, are you really willing to kill all those civilians because a leader like Saddam Hussein did something .
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Post #8,367
9/11/01 3:23:17 PM
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I do not favor killing those civilians . .
. . and it should be avoided if at all possible, though there is some question of the "innocence" of civilians who willingly harbor terrorists and celebrate their actions. I do think it should be on the table, something to worry about, and if necessary a demonstration on a target as purely military as possible. I would hope that would not be necessary.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #8,364
9/11/01 3:19:08 PM
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Some relevent quotes
Just on a quick search: [link|http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~gbeeley/WWW_BIBLE/04.numbers.033.html|Numbers Thirty-Three]
50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan;
52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:
53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.
54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit.
55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.
56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.
[link|http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~gbeeley/WWW_BIBLE/06.joshua.023.html|Joshua Twenty-Three] 12 Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:
13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. [link|http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~gbeeley/WWW_BIBLE/02.exodus.023.html|Exodus Twenty-Three] 30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee. [link|http://www.css.tayloru.edu/~gbeeley/WWW_BIBLE/02.exodus.034.html|Exodus Thirty-Four] 12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. (All emphasis mine.) This is the religious basis for the nation of Israel. It allows for no compromise, and demands the eradication of all non-Jews "from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river." This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,389
9/11/01 3:48:38 PM
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Re: Some relevent quotes
This is the religious basis for the nation of Israel. It allows for no compromise, and demands the eradication of all non-Jews "from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river."
Is that actually current Israeli foreign policy?
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #8,394
9/11/01 3:52:41 PM
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No, it's not
That's why more ... umm, "traditional" factions have been opposing the current leadership.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,265
9/11/01 10:53:12 AM
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Hence "dust off" instead of "Launch"
Darrell Spice, Jr.
[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
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