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Post #78,727
by broomberg
2/2/03 1:35:14 AM
Reply
New Disagree
Please tell me exactly what is different
from RH AS that I can't get from anyone else
other than the cluster manager. And If I
choose not to use that, what locks me in?

If it is a matter of the deal with the
application vendor, again, that is a choice.

We've all been burned before. We've hopefully
learned not to go down that path of absolute
dependance. But you HAVE to make a choice.
Sometimes you choose wrong, sometimes for
the short term, sometimes you win.

As annoying as Rick is, he is right. This is
reality. Make a choice and move on.
Post #78,764
by Andrew Grygus
Picture of Andrew Grygus
2/2/03 12:52:56 PM
Reply
New No, you cannot make a choice and move on.
The choice has already been made for you by the many who follow the sacred Path of Least Resistance.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
Post #78,783
by broomberg
2/2/03 3:42:19 PM
Reply
New Not worthy of a response
Other than to berate the fact that it is not
worthy of a repsonse.

Did you address any points?

No.
Post #78,777
by folkert
Picture of folkert
2/2/03 2:47:50 PM
Reply
New I don't buy your arguement here Broom...
Please tell me exactly what is different from RH AS that I can't get from anyone else other than the cluster manager. And If I choose not to use that, what locks me in?
Cluster Management? You mean to tell me that CLuster management is the only things RHAS gives you?

Wow, the Enterprise Kernel (big-mem 5GB+) and a higher resolution scheduler... more in line for what I would term OLTP biased vs. Workstation biased. Also by default the the sysctl set "busy IO defaults" to more inline with a "server style" non-foreground aimed machine or a "transactional-services" machine. It also has alot of semaphores and much more ability to address and use SWAP more effectively using the vm they have stuck with since pre-2.4.10. The forwardported that VM into 2.4.18... kinda why so many companies are having difficulty with responsiveness and memoery sharing on RedHat machines.

You may have capable admins, but it go without saying that unless you know exactly what a specific product gives you, you can't know how to tweak it. I have always said there are some VERY good things about most of the RedHat Kernels, then again I wouldn't want some of the "hacks" they have in there if I were to put it into production.

Fer instance, early in the 2.4 realm (RH7.1) the 2.4.2 kernel had a BIG problem with syncing data on filesystems... most any file-system but main upon dismount of Reiser Filesystems and it did also have difficulty with EXT2 FS also. A hack they made... seemed to affect only certain system configs.
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]   [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints.
Post #78,781
by broomberg
2/2/03 3:37:30 PM
2/2/03 3:46:08 PM
Reply
New Yes you do
In the list of what you said, what is the RH AS ONLY feature?

All of them are available to the enterprising admin who wants to add it himself. They are just packaging it. None is proprietary to RH, and if RH decides to add a true proprietary hook for a specific app, and then I chose to use that app, then I would do so knowingly.

But RIGHT NOW, there is nothing so special that I can't do it myself. I just choose to pay them to do it.

I also choose NOT to tweak it myself. As TonyTib pointed out, we got a business to run. As I add specific tweaks they are more and more likely to lock me into something (I consider) non vanilla and painful to migrate away from.

Note: I don't consider modifying semaphores that type of tweak. I'm perfectly happy have that stuff in the boot scripts (or wherever else my adin has put it). Alto, you always have to modify the atd launch for multi-cpu.
Expand Edited by broomberg Feb. 2, 2003, 03:46:08 PM EST
Expand All History
Post #78,784
by folkert
Picture of folkert
2/2/03 3:55:30 PM
Reply
New What I mean by tweaking...
Doesn't mean I am recompiling the kernel with Modifications... What mostly I am talking about tweaking are "soft setable" IO tweaks... Allowable buffering, caching, sharing, locking, garbage collection, etc... If you don't monitor the machine for at least a while and bump settings up or down to match they way the machine flexes you aren;t doing justice to the hardware.

I'll let the "I just pay them to package it" statement, just that IF they do indeed add some things that LOCK you in... make sure you can get out from under that...
[link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!]   [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!]
Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints.
Post #78,787
by broomberg
2/2/03 4:35:14 PM
Reply
New See, we DO agree
Kills ya, doesn't it?
Post #78,788
by boxley
2/2/03 4:36:20 PM
Reply
New pragmatic vs logical decision
What is the least I can pay now and still switch horses in the future if needed. Business decision.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
     The push to Advanced Server begins - (Andrew Grygus) - (117) - Jan. 28, 2003, 06:41:53 AM EST
         Shrug. - (pwhysall) - (5) - Jan. 28, 2003, 07:26:28 AM EST
             Not a solution for all . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (4) - Jan. 28, 2003, 11:04:38 AM EST
                 It's probably 99% - (kmself) - (3) - Jan. 28, 2003, 01:44:19 PM EST
                     Of course it'll run fine on other distros . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (2) - Jan. 28, 2003, 02:08:54 PM EST
                         I have run into the same issues on support contracts - (boxley) - Jan. 28, 2003, 02:39:14 PM EST
                         It's a free market - (kmself) - Jan. 28, 2003, 02:39:43 PM EST
         Re: The push to Advanced Server begins - (rickmoen) - (84) - Jan. 28, 2003, 01:04:05 PM EST
             Re: The push to Advanced Server begins - (Andrew Grygus) - (83) - Jan. 28, 2003, 02:40:35 PM EST
                 Right on, Andrew. - (tseliot) - (22) - Jan. 28, 2003, 04:22:46 PM EST
                     Oh great, here come the cheerleaders - (rickmoen) - (21) - Jan. 28, 2003, 08:52:50 PM EST
                         come on Rick have you ever, never met a client - (boxley) - (4) - Jan. 28, 2003, 09:20:09 PM EST
                             Re: come on Rick have you ever, never met a client - (rickmoen) - (3) - Jan. 28, 2003, 10:26:59 PM EST
                                 Thanks, my point is customers will not stray from - (boxley) - (2) - Jan. 28, 2003, 10:41:25 PM EST
                                     Re: Thanks, my point is customers will not stray from - (rickmoen) - (1) - Jan. 28, 2003, 10:49:10 PM EST
                                         Sorry I think we are badly miscommunicating, forget it -NT - (boxley) - Jan. 28, 2003, 10:54:23 PM EST
                         You're in an alternate reality - (tonytib) - (7) - Jan. 28, 2003, 09:32:52 PM EST
                             Re: You're in an alternate reality - (rickmoen) - (3) - Jan. 28, 2003, 10:41:14 PM EST
                                 No, you keep missing the point - (tonytib) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2003, 12:20:47 AM EST
                                     Re: No, you keep missing the point - (rickmoen) - Jan. 29, 2003, 10:18:09 AM EST
                                 How to intentionally miss a point (new thread) - (drewk) - Jan. 29, 2003, 08:52:34 AM EST
                             Re: You're in an alternate reality - (deSitter) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 05:14:07 AM EST
                                 Vertical market vs horizontal - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2003, 05:56:36 AM EST
                                     Nice description. - (static) - Jan. 31, 2003, 05:24:11 AM EST
                         Oh great, here comes the one-man-band. - (tseliot) - (7) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:07:02 PM EST
                             Re: Oh great, here comes the one-man-band. - (rickmoen) - (6) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:43:36 PM EST
                                 Will, should, doesn't matter. - (tseliot) - (5) - Jan. 29, 2003, 04:37:28 PM EST
                                     Re: Will, should, doesn't matter. - (rickmoen) - (4) - Jan. 29, 2003, 05:22:10 PM EST
                                         Small gain, indeed. - (tseliot) - (3) - Jan. 29, 2003, 06:22:28 PM EST
                                             Re: Small gain, indeed. - (rickmoen) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 09:17:50 PM EST
                                                 Apology: - (tseliot) - (1) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:22:12 AM EST
                                                     Think nothing of it. - (rickmoen) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:25:31 AM EST
                 Re: The push to Advanced Server begins - (deSitter) - (59) - Jan. 29, 2003, 04:43:35 AM EST
                     Software drive OS selection - (tuberculosis) - (58) - Jan. 29, 2003, 08:09:56 AM EST
                         Total agreement - (tonytib) - (56) - Jan. 29, 2003, 11:25:47 AM EST
                             Re: Total agreement - (rickmoen) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 11:39:11 AM EST
                                 Apple is backing away from Java - (tuberculosis) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:10:20 PM EST
                                     Re: Apple is backing away from Java - (rickmoen) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:30:29 PM EST
                             The Software Desert - (Andrew Grygus) - (52) - Jan. 29, 2003, 01:20:56 PM EST
                                 Re: The Software Desert - (rickmoen) - (51) - Jan. 29, 2003, 01:54:33 PM EST
                                     It's people like you that do more harm than good - (tonytib) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 02:35:03 PM EST
                                         Re: It's people like you that do more harm than good - (rickmoen) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2003, 02:59:07 PM EST
                                             Nope, you're a troll...or an idiot (can't read, can't answer -NT - (tonytib) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:39:49 PM EST
                                     LDAP? - (tuberculosis) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:33:49 PM EST
                                         Give it up, he hasn't learned to read yet -NT - (tonytib) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:40:42 PM EST
                                         Well I suppose you could always use Radius for CM - (boxley) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:59:31 PM EST
                                     Well, i's pretty evident . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (43) - Jan. 29, 2003, 04:43:49 PM EST
                                         Re: Well, i's pretty evident . . - (rickmoen) - (42) - Jan. 29, 2003, 05:30:55 PM EST
                                             Lemme second an opinion... - (bepatient) - (33) - Jan. 29, 2003, 06:07:34 PM EST
                                                 Re: Lemme second an opinion... - (rickmoen) - (32) - Jan. 29, 2003, 09:26:09 PM EST
                                                     Generally it is safe to presume . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (18) - Jan. 29, 2003, 10:24:20 PM EST
                                                         Re: Generally it is safe to presume . . . - (rickmoen) - (17) - Jan. 29, 2003, 10:35:34 PM EST
                                                             It's the height of arrogance . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (16) - Jan. 29, 2003, 11:19:08 PM EST
                                                                 Re: It's the height of arrogance . . - (rickmoen) - (15) - Jan. 29, 2003, 11:45:03 PM EST
                                                                     Your ability to descend into absurdity is truly amazing! - (Andrew Grygus) - (14) - Jan. 30, 2003, 12:38:32 AM EST
                                                                         Ow.... - (folkert) - (13) - Jan. 30, 2003, 09:19:06 AM EST
                                                                             Re: Ow.... - (rickmoen) - (12) - Jan. 30, 2003, 03:39:59 PM EST
                                                                                 Simple Question - (deSitter) - (11) - Jan. 30, 2003, 04:29:06 PM EST
                                                                                     Remember to include - (imric) - Jan. 30, 2003, 04:40:15 PM EST
                                                                                     ps. Of course - (imric) - Jan. 30, 2003, 04:42:53 PM EST
                                                                                     call Andrew and get his -NT - (boxley) - (2) - Jan. 30, 2003, 05:00:17 PM EST
                                                                                         OK - (pwhysall) - (1) - Jan. 30, 2003, 05:04:01 PM EST
                                                                                             Sorry, Desit asked for replacement of Great Plains - (boxley) - Jan. 30, 2003, 05:43:43 PM EST
                                                                                     AppGen - (folkert) - (5) - Jan. 30, 2003, 08:50:41 PM EST
                                                                                         Re: AppGen - (deSitter) - (2) - Jan. 30, 2003, 10:01:04 PM EST
                                                                                             Yes... it does work. - (folkert) - Jan. 30, 2003, 10:19:02 PM EST
                                                                                             Give the Gryg a call I am sure he would be willing to answer - (boxley) - Jan. 30, 2003, 10:21:57 PM EST
                                                                                         Appgen Custom Suite . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Jan. 30, 2003, 11:12:46 PM EST
                                                                                             Yes... all three... - (folkert) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:03:24 AM EST
                                                     Damn, now ACT! is an OS??? - (bepatient) - (12) - Jan. 30, 2003, 06:34:56 AM EST
                                                         Re: Damn, now ACT! is an OS??? - (rickmoen) - (11) - Jan. 30, 2003, 07:28:15 AM EST
                                                             Figured as much. - (bepatient) - (10) - Jan. 30, 2003, 08:07:31 AM EST
                                                                 Re: Figured as much. - (rickmoen) - (9) - Jan. 30, 2003, 03:31:06 PM EST
                                                                     You didn't? - (bepatient) - (8) - Jan. 30, 2003, 06:42:41 PM EST
                                                                         With apologies... - (admin) - (3) - Jan. 30, 2003, 06:48:18 PM EST
                                                                             Ahh, the good ole days - (boxley) - Jan. 30, 2003, 06:58:20 PM EST
                                                                             Oh dear... - (bepatient) - Jan. 30, 2003, 08:41:06 PM EST
                                                                             I have a bad feeling about that... - (static) - Jan. 31, 2003, 05:31:11 AM EST
                                                                         Re: You didn't? - (rickmoen) - (3) - Jan. 30, 2003, 11:36:39 PM EST
                                                                             Maybe my universal translator is broken. - (bepatient) - (2) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:10:33 PM EST
                                                                                 Re: Maybe my universal translator is broken. - (rickmoen) - (1) - Jan. 31, 2003, 04:29:18 PM EST
                                                                                     whatever -NT - (bepatient) - Jan. 31, 2003, 10:16:10 PM EST
                                             Sorry buddy - can't stick with Windows . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (7) - Jan. 29, 2003, 06:35:52 PM EST
                                                 AppGen... - (folkert) - (2) - Jan. 29, 2003, 07:14:36 PM EST
                                                     My Appgen experience is with . . . - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Jan. 29, 2003, 07:31:15 PM EST
                                                         Yeah... that's the one... - (folkert) - Jan. 29, 2003, 07:49:53 PM EST
                                                 Re: Sorry buddy - can't stick with Windows . . - (rickmoen) - Jan. 29, 2003, 09:31:33 PM EST
                                                 Re: Sorry buddy - can't stick with Windows . . - (deSitter) - (2) - Jan. 31, 2003, 01:08:50 AM EST
                                                     Appgen - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Jan. 31, 2003, 02:10:09 AM EST
                                                         Thanks... I could not have said it better... - (folkert) - Jan. 31, 2003, 07:13:59 AM EST
                                     Did Andrew ask what you used? (new thread) - (Another Scott) - Jan. 30, 2003, 03:47:50 PM EST
                         As to capitalism.. - (deSitter) - Jan. 29, 2003, 03:34:35 PM EST
         The push to Advanced Workstation begins - (folkert) - (9) - Jan. 30, 2003, 09:54:32 PM EST
             Yup, looks like Red Hat is responding to the outcry. - (Andrew Grygus) - (8) - Jan. 30, 2003, 11:26:10 PM EST
                 Re: Yup, looks like Red Hat is responding to the outcry. - (rickmoen) - (7) - Jan. 30, 2003, 11:39:03 PM EST
                     come on squeek, there is a perfectly good flame area - (boxley) - (6) - Jan. 30, 2003, 11:48:13 PM EST
                         Re: come on squeek, there is a perfectly good flame area - (rickmoen) - (5) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:20:42 AM EST
                             My dear squeek - (boxley) - Jan. 31, 2003, 12:36:19 AM EST
                             Stoop - or just low all the time? - (tuberculosis) - (3) - Jan. 31, 2003, 08:13:03 AM EST
                                 Re: Stoop - or just low all the time? - (rickmoen) - (2) - Jan. 31, 2003, 04:24:27 PM EST
                                     Boy you're a slow learner - (tuberculosis) - (1) - Jan. 31, 2003, 07:41:11 PM EST
                                         Re: Boy you're a slow learner - (rickmoen) - Feb. 1, 2003, 02:04:03 AM EST
         My 2 cents - (broomberg) - (15) - Feb. 1, 2003, 07:33:55 PM EST
             That's why monopoly is so easy. - (Andrew Grygus) - (8) - Feb. 1, 2003, 09:48:29 PM EST
                 Disagree - (broomberg) - (7) - Feb. 2, 2003, 01:35:14 AM EST
                     No, you cannot make a choice and move on. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - Feb. 2, 2003, 12:52:56 PM EST
                         Not worthy of a response - (broomberg) - Feb. 2, 2003, 03:42:19 PM EST
                     I don't buy your arguement here Broom... - (folkert) - (3) - Feb. 2, 2003, 02:47:50 PM EST
                         Yes you do - (broomberg) - (2) - Feb. 2, 2003, 03:46:08 PM EST
                             What I mean by tweaking... - (folkert) - (1) - Feb. 2, 2003, 03:55:30 PM EST
                                 See, we DO agree - (broomberg) - Feb. 2, 2003, 04:35:14 PM EST
                     pragmatic vs logical decision - (boxley) - Feb. 2, 2003, 04:36:20 PM EST
             Re: My 2 cents - (rickmoen) - (5) - Feb. 2, 2003, 02:12:47 AM EST
                 Out of context - (broomberg) - (4) - Feb. 3, 2003, 12:02:25 AM EST
                     Re: Out of context - (rickmoen) - (3) - Feb. 3, 2003, 01:37:58 AM EST
                         Missed it again - (broomberg) - (2) - Feb. 3, 2003, 09:05:22 AM EST
                             Now hang on a minit thar buddy... - (folkert) - (1) - Feb. 3, 2003, 11:11:02 AM EST
                                 Sorry, this thread is dead - (broomberg) - Feb. 3, 2003, 12:21:31 PM EST

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