Newsflash: Uninformed people make mistake! Film at 11.

Post #7,082 by addison 8/29/01 11:02:25 AM Reply	Newsflash: Uninformed people make mistake! Film at 11. What in the hell is "criminal" about the stock market? I mean, even for you, that's a stretch. They invested, they lost. Somebody else invested, and won. The DOWNSIDE to the market is for you to make money somebody else has to LOSE money. So Lucent stock is worthless (or close to it). I know lots of Cisco people in the same boat. People leaving because options are worthless. So Cisco is having to pony up REAL dollars, instead of POSSIBLE options to keep them. Will anyone get punished except these workers? Since nobody did anything WRONG, no. You don't punish unless somebody's done something wrong. Addison
Post #7,260 by mmoffitt 8/30/01 3:53:05 PM Reply	A stab. From the article: "Management encouraged them to invest in the company in a tempting offer. First, workers could buy stock through the employee stock purchase plan, deducting up to 10 percent of their pay toward stock purchases at a 15 percent discount. Second, workers could invest in Lucent shares through their 401(k) retirement plans, and some had their plans entirely invested in Lucent. Blue-collar workers received the company's voluntary 401(k) matching contribution in Lucent stock. Finally, many Lucent workers received incentives and pay in options and more options to buy stock, contracts now largely worthless. Almost every rank-and-file Lucent worker received stock options." One might argue that management, in essence, coerced employees into purchasing stock. Couple that with the broad tendency in IT circles to "reward" employee performance with options instead of real money and you might conclude that the employees were dealth with unfairly, while managers (ahead of the game when it comes to the real condition of the company) could bail out whilest the price was still far from its bottom. OT: Do your check ride yet?
Post #7,263 by addison 8/30/01 4:06:24 PM Reply	Hey, trade ya a crisp new $1 for that grungy $100. Is that coercion? No. If I offer you 50 stock options, rather than the $100 raise - who's fault is that for accepting? Had the stock gone UP, would people have complained? No. The whole point of the "diverse investments" that most advisors hammer on, is if you put all of your eggs in one basket....... If they didn't get the advice, or ignored it, hoping to get richer, sooner, that's their choice - that's why its a risk in investing. Somebody made money. Just not them. OT: Already answered that one in the other forum. :) (yep) Addison
Post #7,634 by mmoffitt 9/4/01 12:00:11 PM Reply	OT: CONGRATS! I've been away for a while, missed your answer before, I'll go looking. I'm going into controlled space next Sat., then off on my first solo X-country. (If they can get the radio fixed - put in a new King/Bendix GPS and its been going in and out).
Post #7,271 by Simon_Jester 8/30/01 4:40:55 PM Reply	Wait a minute... Finally, many Lucent workers received incentives and pay in options and more options to buy stock, contracts now largely worthless. Almost every rank-and-file Lucent worker received stock options." One might argue that management, in essence, coerced employees into purchasing stock. Couple that with the broad tendency in IT circles to "reward" employee performance with options instead of real money and you might conclude that the employees were dealth with unfairly, while managers (ahead of the game when it comes to the real condition of the company) could bail out whilest the price was still far from its bottom. Wait a minute...let's take your typical dot-com 3 years ago and replace it with Lucent... Hmmm...management coerced employees into purchasing stock?? Damn, I've FOUGHT with management to offer stock (the idiots refused and I left). Furthermore, employees (imo) often have a better idea of how good the company is doing compared with management (especially technical companies) as they know what 'really' going on.
Post #7,636 by mmoffitt 9/4/01 12:08:45 PM Reply	Replace Lucent with "Pyramid Scheme". Should operators of conventional pyramid schemes be illegal? Aren't the bottom rung (the ones left holding the bag) just victims of their own "bad judgement"? Mind you, anyone who takes 2 in the bush over 1 in the bag deserves what he gets, imo. Still, I think you can build a case for unfairness if the employees were not offered the 1 in the bag, but only the 2 in the bush for time (work) served.
Post #7,679 by Simon_Jester 9/4/01 8:23:12 PM Reply	Ya need to get more... Should operators of conventional pyramid schemes be illegal? Aren't the bottom rung (the ones left holding the bag) just victims of their own "bad judgement"? You've never been offered to partake in (damn name went right out of my head - sells all kinds of stuff - known for soap - via MLM and was nailed as a pyramid scheme several years ago....amoco? Damn.) Anyway, I mention the name if it comes back to me, but there are a lot of MLM business schemes out there that are boardline pyramids. Should they be shut down? Even what's-its'-name (this is REALLY annoying) wasn't shutdown, they just reorganized. It's difficult for government in these instances. While some people want themselves protected, others want what's offered. Where do you draw the line? (For MLM vs. pyramid schemes, it's where the focus is - bring in recruits or selling product). Protect the people and you prevent them from doing what they want. Leave them alone and you allow them to become victims. And I wasn't kidding about the stock deals. I've got a friend who now works for Lucent (last I checked). He used to work for a consulting firm that Lucent bought out. I'm pretty sure (didn't ask) that he made a nice bundle when Lucent bought out the consulting firm. If Lucent goes under he may lose money if he still owns stock. Was he wrong to make the money on the first deal?
Post #7,686 by Another Scott 9/4/01 9:47:11 PM Reply	Amway. You're welcome. :-)
Post #7,707 by Simon_Jester 9/5/01 7:58:24 AM Reply	Thanks....that was driving me crazy. -msg
Post #7,729 by mmoffitt 9/5/01 12:51:27 PM Reply	Not wrong on first deal, IF it was genuinely left up to him. What I think is fair is the following: Joe works hard for a year. Joe's performance review comes up. Joe is told by his manager (who presumeably knows more about the details of the company) that the "stock is going up". He tells Joe that he can have a $1,000 bonus or he can not take the bonus and instead be granted options which will mature in 6 months. "By then," the manager assures, "you'll make substantially more money than you would by taking the bonus." Joe makes his decision. What's unfair: Joe's company only gives stock and options for performance bonuses. M$ has always paid employees around 25% less than market - rationalized by their lucrative stock option plans. That's a little slimy, imo. The company gets 25% more productivity than they paid for NOW, while the employee gets a "promise". I know its uncommon to believe this, but you really can lose money in stock.
Post #7,735 by Simon_Jester 9/5/01 1:20:55 PM Reply	We're probably going to disagree on this one, no matter what I agree with you that you can lose money on stock options. Hell, I've had it happen to me. I got stock options at $6 a share and the stock was trading at close to $4. But then again, I've also worked for company that gave an entire $20 for a bonus. One I worked for offered no bonuses, period. Some offer stock options. And, there's been companies that have (due to economic distress) offered employees solely stock options (no paychecks). They couldn't afford the payroll. Some employees left. Some stayed. Eventually the company got out of the hole and went public. An admin. assistant calculated that, when she cashed in her options, she had been making over a hundred dollars an hour. What I think you want is the best of both worlds. Take a company and offer both low-risk and high-risk payment options, choosable by the employee. It may work, I don't know. But, I suspect that such an option probably wouldn't work. If I'm taking a high-risk payment option, I'm not going to be happy if you're sticking on your tail saying it's not your job during an economic crisis. Then again, like some Microsoft temp workers, you might not be happy if you're making minimum wage and I'm suddenly a millionaire. Besides, if you don't like the options your company is providing, look elsewhere. There are other jobs on the market.

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