Post #61,662
11/7/02 1:17:49 PM
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I'm willing to pay whatever it takes.
No more, no less.
Sorry, I just can't relate to the sort of mentality that would try to reduce principle to monetary sums. Especially when expressed in units of fiat money.
NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
"The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks
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Post #61,663
11/7/02 1:22:17 PM
11/7/02 1:29:55 PM
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In short, you can't answer the question.
Whatever it takes... it's a nice sentiment, and probably does good things when talking to the non-thinking, but let's face a little reality here... what are you going to do if "whatever it takes" is more than you actually have?
Or is it ok if it's not more than *you* actually have, but more than (for the sake of example) the lower half of your fellow citizens by income have? After all, it's not like these "WMD" are actually a threat to them personally... or to you personally, for that matter.
I mean, have you actually given these issues any thought *at all*, or are you only running off emotionalism, adrenaline, and testosterone here?
These are serious questions. Hand waving away a cost/benefit analysis of something like this marks you as a demagogue, not as a person whose opinion should be taken seriously.
Do you want to be taken seriously?
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by jake123
Nov. 7, 2002, 01:29:55 PM EST
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Post #61,688
11/7/02 2:50:20 PM
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It's worse than that...
he wants ME to pay for "whatever it takes" as well.
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Post #61,694
11/7/02 3:43:27 PM
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That's exactly the point I was trying to make to him.
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #61,715
11/7/02 5:33:29 PM
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Which is, of course - the game plan of every
fanatic and bigot extant: Do 'it' My One True Way, you Infidel. No matter what it costs (you swine).
It's just the religiosity argument ad infinitum, and effective only upon sheep in large masses. Pater noster. Onward Xian Sojers yada yada.
Oh well. My Gramma lives in the hearts of such legions.
Ashton
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Post #61,725
11/7/02 6:30:22 PM
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Which is, of course,...
... the reason he won't answer you in anything other than platitudes...
jb4
"About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. "
-- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002)
(I wish more managers knew that...)
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Post #61,839
11/8/02 9:54:23 AM
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I just want to see if he will do otherwise.
It would be a lot more interesting if he actually brought some reason to the debate. I'm going to give it one or two more shots to see if he's ready to argue... but if he's only going to declaim, I'm not going to waste a lot more time on it.
--\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #61,860
11/8/02 11:16:26 AM
11/8/02 11:18:35 AM
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Cost benefit analysis? Let's see yours.
I'm willing to go broke for the sake of freedom. It wouldn't be the first time I've been in rags. I'm willing to risk my life for the sake of freedom. It wouldn' be the first time I've been in personal danger. Are you willing to give up freedom if you think it'll help you avoid going broke? Because... guess what. It won't. There aren't very many wealthy slaves.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I haven't thought it through. Or that you have.
P.S. I want to be taken seriously by those whom I take seriously. I haven't decided whether you qualify, but the more cheap shots you take, the more I lean against.
NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
"The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks
Edited by marlowe
Nov. 8, 2002, 11:18:35 AM EST
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Post #61,871
11/8/02 11:58:02 AM
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No you are not.
I'm willing to risk my life for the sake of freedom. No. If you were, you'd have ALREADY enlisted. You can CLAIM that you will, but you'll, somehow, manage to keep avoiding it. There will always be some OTHER way you can BETTER "serve your country". Remember, you'll have to go through Basic first and then AIT and THEN be shipped somewhere. Those willing to defend freedom are the ones being PROACTIVE and completing the process NOW. Your kind seek to avoid any personal sacrifice and hem and haw and delay while you HOPE that the danger will pass.
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Post #61,881
11/8/02 12:36:34 PM
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Sure.
Let's see... I have two kids that I need to feed, clothe, house, and eventually educate. You know, being in rags so people in Israel, Kuwait, Japan, and/or China don't have to deal with their neighbours is not worth putting myself in rags to me... and esp. not worth putting my children in rags either. If they want to be free, they can take care of their own freedom. In fact, taking care of it for them simply means that they aren't free... freedom comes from within, not without. Also, I'm interested in why you think that putting a missile shield over North Korea to protect people in S. Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, China, and Japan is going to make people in North America freer. I mean... I don't see the connection. I'm positing that it's neither *your* nor *my* freedom nor even our physical safety that's threatened by those weapons... none of those countries can project their armed forces to North America. What is threatened in the case of Afgahnistan and Iraq is the ability of the west to decide the terms at which they will sell us their natural resources. Well, guess what; they're *their* natural resources. Force is not an acceptable market ploy, imo. The only reason the Bush administration are making noises about N. Korea is because if they closed their eyes to a country that is almost certainly much farther along in their weapons program, the claims about invading Iraq to put an end to weapons development would be revealed for the fiction they are... and they'll have to kiss their UN resolution to make the invasion of Iraq all nice and legal goodbye. I'm esp. not interested in paying for the ability of the top .003% of *your* country's population to make even more money than they already do. I should point out that "you answer the question" is not generally recognised as great debating technique. You're the person who's asking people to pony up piles of dough... so how much do you expect them to pay? Finally... you're the one saying you'll pay... so how much is it worth? Let's see some numbers here... without them, you're just blowing smoke to impress the rubes. How much will you pay for something that most physicists will tell you cannot work? --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\r\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\r\n* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #61,889
11/8/02 1:17:31 PM
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I'd first like to see....
Since you're so intent on spending my money, a proof that SDI (or whatever they're calling it) equates to freedom.
We've repeatedly shown that SDI only nails intercontinental missiles - not cruise missiles, not airplaces, not freighters. Given your warning that Saddam Hussein could use airplanes to attack us - are you implying that Korea is so stupid it won't notice Saddam Hussein's possible attack and try to duplicate it?
Failing this proof - why are we spending money? If it doesn't buy us freedom, what does it buy us?
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Post #62,136
11/11/02 12:16:03 AM
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neat technology without star wars there wouldnt be
lasik
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"Fifty-one percent of a nation can establish a totalitarian regime, suppress minorities and still remain democratic." Correction: All that can be achieved with 51 percent of the voters!" Ilanna Mercer
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Post #62,188
11/11/02 10:35:42 AM
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True...and I don't mind spending money on research
even SDI research.
I just have a problem with building a defense system to fight yesteryear's war.
Reminds me of the Maginot Line.
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Post #62,189
11/11/02 10:46:54 AM
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That new LASER system, if it indeed works,
Will nail everything from ballistic missiles on down.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #62,190
11/11/02 10:59:21 AM
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Still won't stop a freight container, tho...
That's the big problem as I see it - defense, ultimately, is a failed excercise, especially as our ability to project energy in an offensive manner continues to grow exponentially faster than our ability to shield against that energy. There's always a way to deliver a nuke, and once you've got it delivered, well...
End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
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Post #62,192
11/11/02 11:06:16 AM
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Yep.
Try telling Israel they don't need air defenses though... :-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #62,202
11/11/02 12:14:55 PM
11/11/02 12:18:23 PM
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And you'll distinguish between the
nuke packing Cessna and the General Aviation "out for fun" family Cessna how again?
You could wait until the nuke goes off...er...but that might be too late.
You could outlaw GA though...that would be interesting.
(And yes, there is the freighter above.)
Don't get me wrong. I like SDI research. We should continue it. It should be installed on naval warships and other military places.
I'm just worried that people are going to spend billions a defense system that can and will be circumvented.
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Post #62,204
11/11/02 12:27:58 PM
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Everything can be circumvented.
Armor fell to the longbow, castles to the cannon, and so on.
There are plenty of things the laser system shown could protect against, however. Use the right tool for the job. Just because there are other jobs as well doesn't invalidate the need for the laser's job.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #62,229
11/11/02 1:54:09 PM
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No defense is perfect.
You also left out vehicular delivery. Drive it up from Mexico. Don't get me wrong. I like SDI research. We should continue it. It should be installed on naval warships and other military places. Good usage. I'm just worried that people are going to spend billions a defense system that can and will be circumvented. Yes, we will. And we will be surprised when our defenses fail to protect our cities. Again, people should read about attack trees from Bruce Schneier. Our COUNTRY (the land, the cities, the roads, etc) will NOT be attacked via ICBM's. The ICBM scenario is from the Cold War with Russia. We will be spending TRILLIONS of dollars to defend against an attack that DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE. It would be a better DEFENSE to take some of that money and help Russia. But then, I've always viewed the situation slightly differently than most people. Remember the Marshall Plan.
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Post #61,841
11/8/02 10:04:43 AM
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Whatever it takes, eh?
So, are you joining the Marines or the Army?
"A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Post #61,861
11/8/02 11:25:11 AM
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The armed forces are sufficiently appreciative...
of all that I am doing on their behalf in my current capacity. But if it comes to it, yes, I'll enlist. See if they'll take me.
So how about you? What are you willing to do?
NOT ONE CENT of tribute for North Korea.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
The nihilists and the liars have buried truth alive in a shallow grave.
"The US party calls in mortar fire on the enemy positions. The UN party stands up, climbs over the lip of the trench, and recites Robert\ufffds Rules of Order as it approaches the machine-gun positions." - Lileks
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Post #61,866
11/8/02 11:46:15 AM
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What I'm willing to do
1. Work for the election of representatives who will fight against this oil war.
2. Support through monetary and other means those who are organizing protests against this oil war.
3. Point out the hypocrisy of the current administration's reasoning to justify this oil war.
4. Work for the defeat of Democrats who supported this oil war.
5. Ask over and over again: Where is Osama?
As for military service, I served my hitch and performed my patriotic duty. As an infantryman. Volunteer. You?
"A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Post #61,874
11/8/02 12:10:19 PM
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Ah There's SL
I thought you might have joined the militia after the first Tue in Nov.
-drl
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Post #61,893
11/8/02 2:10:58 PM
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Nah, just bugsh*t crazy with a ton of work
"A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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