Can't say I'm surprised.

Post #60,629 by inthane-chan 11/1/02 3:57:02 PM Reply	Can't say I'm surprised. Looks like CKK folded. Bleagh. Fuck. TANJ. Go EU! End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #60,631 by Another Scott 11/1/02 4:08:12 PM Reply	Eh? It's not 4:30 PM EST yet. There's nothing on CKK's web page - [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/microsoft-2001.html\|http://www.dcd.uscou...crosoft-2001.html] - yet. You have a cite? Cheers, Scott.
Post #60,635 by drewk 11/1/02 4:11:13 PM Reply	Here [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/FinalDecree.pdf\|Final Decree], [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/Lit11-1.pdf\|Memorandum Opinion], [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/PubIntOrd.pdf\|Public Interest Order], [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/StateSettlement.pdf\|Opinion on the State Settlement], [link\|http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/Statesord.pdf\|State Settlement Order] === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #60,639 by Another Scott 11/1/02 4:18:23 PM Reply	Thanks Drew.
Post #60,640 by drewk 11/1/02 4:32:03 PM Reply	Thank /. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #60,632 by drewk 11/1/02 4:09:27 PM Reply	Damn J. No provision of this Final Judgment shall: 1. Require Microsoft to document, disclose or license to third parties: (a) portions of APIs or Documentation or portions or layers of Communications Protocols the disclosure of which would compromise the security of a particular installation or group of installations of anti-piracy, anti-virus, software licensing, digital rights management, encryption or authentication systems, including without limitation, keys, authorization tokens or enforcement criteria; or (b) any API, interface or other information related to any Microsoft product if lawfully directed not to do so by a governmental agency of competent jurisdiction. Game, set, match. Fuck/ === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #60,636 by bepatient 11/1/02 4:14:03 PM Reply	I'd say thats a loophole.. ...that you could drive the earth through. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #60,637 by inthane-chan 11/1/02 4:15:02 PM Reply	Fergit the earth... I'm takin' the whole farkin' UNIVERSE for a spin, right through that loophole, SIDEWAYS. End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #60,678 by Brandioch 11/1/02 11:20:12 PM Reply	Hmmmm, legal semanitics, maybe? ...the disclosure of which would compromise the security... Hmmmmmm. But, that would mean that the protocol, api, whatever was NOT "secure". Okay, everyone understands public/private keys, right? Knowing HOW they work and the encryption algorithm does NOT compromise their security, right? Unless what they are doing is insecure in the first place.
Post #60,980 by drewk 11/4/02 9:11:50 AM Reply	Loophole the second J.No provision of this Final Judgment shall: 2.Prevent Microsoft from conditioning any license of any API, Documentation or Communications Protocol related to anti-piracy systems, anti-virus technologies, license enforcement mechanisms, authentication/authorization security, or third party intellectual property protection mechanisms of any Microsoft product to any person or entity on the requirement that the licensee: (c)meets reasonable, objective standards established by Microsoft for certifying the authenticity and viability of its business The italics are nonsense words that might as well not be there. Microsoft is free to define them as they wish. Microsoft's lawyers will again simply read the bolded sections in this massive "or" statement. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #61,130 by ben_tilly 11/5/02 6:49:54 AM Reply	Interpretation If we (ie Microsoft) are in competition with you, then you are going to die and therefore are not viable. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #60,641 by andread 11/1/02 4:33:15 PM Reply	Time to change name to Microsoft was Guilty? Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #60,642 by inthane-chan 11/1/02 4:41:17 PM Reply	How about "Microsoft bought the DoJ?" End of world rescheduled for day after tomorrow. Something should probably be done. Please advise.
Post #60,643 by drewk 11/1/02 4:57:29 PM Reply	How about "What happened Davey?" "We got hosed Tommy....We got hosed." === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #60,652 by boxley 11/1/02 5:11:39 PM Reply	remember she had a choice of accept/reject and what is the previous Judges chances of ever advancing, blech, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] "Therefore, by objective standards, the leading managers of the U.S. economy...are collectively, clinically insane." Lyndon LaRouche
Post #60,982 by jb4 11/4/02 9:28:02 AM Reply	So in other words.... ...she folded like a good little soldier so that she'd get a good quartely review? Where's the commode? jb4 "About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. " -- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002) (I wish more managers knew that...)
Post #60,986 by jake123 11/4/02 9:52:42 AM Reply	Technicolour yawn time? --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \r\n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \r\n Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #61,024 by jb4 11/4/02 2:29:18 PM Reply	Uh-huh... ...such euphemistic prowess... jb4 "About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. " -- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002) (I wish more managers knew that...)
Post #60,657 by kmself 11/1/02 6:13:14 PM Reply	CKK is BG's bitch --\r\nKarsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Post #60,646 by SpiceWare 11/1/02 5:02:19 PM Reply	Re: Can't say I'm surprised. [link\|http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/topstory2/1642624\|Judge approves most of Microsoft-DOJ settlement] The decision eliminates the establishment of a technical committee to assess Microsoft's compliance with the agreement. In its place, a corporate compliance committee -- consisting of Microsoft board members -- will make sure Microsoft lives up to the deal, the judge said. Sure they will. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #60,649 by drewk 11/1/02 5:07:12 PM Reply	FBOG === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #60,655 by SpiceWare 11/1/02 5:34:44 PM Reply	The Reg Chimes in [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/27895.html\|Judge backs MS-DoJ deal, Microsoft now in the clear?] The current state of play therefore is that Microsoft is (remember?) still guilty of serious antitrust violations, but that the District Court has decided that the measures it agreed with the DoJ are sufficient to stop the company from sinning again. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, it's just a pity some of them are judges. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #60,662 by hnick 11/1/02 6:43:48 PM Reply	I never thought it would be different. Considering how arrogant those Microsoft assholes were when it was up in the air, they are going to be total shits now that they have to recoup the expenditures of the trial (using the word loosely.) I really have to get a new line of work... just gotta figure out what. Wish it was better, Hugh
Post #60,680 by deSitter 11/1/02 11:23:29 PM Reply	They're Doomed No one wants XP or .NET (or for that matter, Java or J2EE or whatever). No one will want Office XI. No one has any respect for them. Even their committed support base, Windows programmers, will eventually abandon them. Because most of the non-entities who made a living putting up Windows peecees are now unemployed, that segment of their support base is also lost. Who is left? What can they point to with any pride? They are already dead. It will take a while for all that foul gas to leak out of the overinflated balloon, but it will happen. MS is no better or worse than Sun, RedHat, Cisco, name it. The entire software industry is a festering pustule, all around. It's not a fit profession for honest people to work in. Was this verdict surprising? Of course not. Was it realistic? Given the society that produced it, yes. -drl
Post #60,683 by Another Scott 11/1/02 11:30:28 PM Reply	They are already dead? $40B buys a lot of life support. :-<
Post #60,686 by Brandioch 11/1/02 11:45:24 PM Reply	A long, painful, while. The REAL problem that I see is that this ruling, if MS is allowed to wriggle on it, spells the death of the US software industry. MS will continue to crush any and all competition. The trend I'm predicting is for more and more of the core programmers (think Linux kernel and such) will not be US citizens. It will be easier and safer to operate somewhere other than the US. Rather than exporting Windows and importing cash from every other country, our software industry will end up just like our home electronics industry. MS won't be idle during its decline. It has a huge war chest. It still has a monopoly. It can buy a lot of legislation. But the end result will be the same, the jobs will be leaving the US.
Post #60,688 by jake123 11/1/02 11:50:16 PM Reply	I absolutely agree. --\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\r\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca \r\n [link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] [link\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca\|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] \r\n Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] *\r\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #60,706 by Ashton 11/2/02 4:21:19 AM Reply	Schmidt + Ashcroft + THIS: means far more than industry loss (Schmidt (?) - the ex M$ ""Security"" VP now in DOJ employ, I mean - if that's his name.) Never mind (well, I appreciate that folks here Must Mind..) the mere Borg assimilation of any remaining conceivable competition - extrapolate next: A CPU S/N tied to Passport by-any-stupid new name, with all the built-in preps for S/Ns on Everything (accessory) legal to be sold = no cut & paste w/o an individual permit from 'author' == death of US access to the former phenom called The Internet. Petabytes of 'security' info monitored=controlled by M$ or lapdog surrogate. With the NOISE of a bellicose Rightest-possible Wing group drowning out the outraged, small knowledgeable group left here; a junta ready to defy the world and invade perhaps several countries.. Add-on the gutless Demo clan, the utter unlikeliness of any 3rd Constitution Party.. Sprinkle in the daily panic propaganda orchestrated over the sheep - Not only may there be only a M$-controlled remnant of a "computer industry"; one with M$-devised sanctions effectively rendering all OS source access to the net illegal if not impossible: the merely devastating US bizness losses may be dwarfed by a fact of most information management becoming solely Corp-owned in the US. (Instead of just Mostly-Corp-owned) And that's only what appears obvious (to me anyway) immediately; I'm sure I haven't noticed a plethora of variants. This woman may prove to have been the most destructive Lackey yet - producing more devastating effects than even Scalia's lap-dog. With this mandate, I see no easy escape on the horizon - given the attitude of the vast majority, their ignorance of the consequences - and the current panic mode. 'Democracy' was a noble idea, and it lasted barely a couple centuries. That such a banal bunch of barbarians were able to seed its demise - is the shame of our National insouciance in all worldly matters. Ashton If Only. . Judge Jackson could have kept his lip zipped . . . Just another fucking Ego-besotted twit, his fine intellectual work entirely undone by himself.
Post #60,695 by dmarker 11/2/02 1:26:05 AM Reply	Re: MS now entrenched as part of the 'system' Whilst I would like to believe as you do that MS is doomed, I don't see that happening among the large corps we deal with - most including the company I am with are falling over backwards to ged into bed with MS. Tom Siebel is one high-profile CEO who has ent over for Billy. Siebel will develop a full range of CRM software built on .NET, for his trouble, Bill will thrown him a few bones. The settlement takes me right back to the day Reagan's republican admin let IBM walk at a time that the judge (EdelStein) was preparing to tear the company apart for the level of its guilt & harm done. A comparison (ps I don't fully agree with the points this person is making re innovation by either IBM or Microsoft. IBM (who I worked for at the time) was every bit as guilty as MS is today, of squashing the most innovative competitors) ... [link\|http://www.independent.org/tii/news/010831Armentano.html\|Antitrust or Bust] extract >>>> ........ Twenty years ago, under very similar circumstances, the Reagan administration handled a major antitrust problem it inherited very differently. IBM was indicted by the Johnson administration's Department of Justice in 1969 and charged with illegal monopolization of the general-purpose digital computer systems market. The suit alleged that IBM had systematically engaged in certain exclusionary practices -- sound familiar? -- that tended to create and maintain a monopoly in violation of the Sherman Act. The case finally went to trial in 1975. Yet after more than six years in court and a trial transcript of more than 104,000 pages, the government abandoned the case in 1982 since, as Assistant Attorney General William Baxter so bluntly put it, the 13-year legal persecution was simply "without merit." IBM, like Microsoft, was accused of bundling software with hardware and thereby excluding competitors, even though, again like Microsoft, the bulk of the consumer-relevant information demonstrated that IBM had innovated rapidly and lowered prices. Finally, in IBM as in Microsoft, there were disgruntled competitors and business rivals who were anxious to see IBM convicted and "tied up" (as one competitor so colorfully put it) by antitrust regulation for years. In contrast, although there were no findings of fact in the IBM case, there are very unfavorable ones in Microsoft's case. Yet the only reason that there were no unfavorable findings in the IBM case is because it was withdrawn before the angry trial judge could write one! ..................
Post #60,699 by Andrew Grygus 11/2/02 2:21:10 AM Reply	Interestingly, Tom Siebel has recently signed with Sun . . . . to develope the same stuff using J2EE. Sounds like he likes to keep his bets covered. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #60,664 by ben_tilly 11/1/02 7:03:55 PM Reply	You know my opinion [link\|http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/public/03/mtc-00002479.htm\|http://www.usdoj.gov.../mtc-00002479.htm] Mark those words on your calendar as prophecies. They will be coming true sooner than you think. Cheers, Ben "Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly." - [link\|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html\|Walter Mead]
Post #60,765 by tseliot 11/2/02 3:08:03 PM Reply	I laughed (in frustration) a bit until... ...until I heard M$ describe the ruling as "tough but fair". Blubbering in my cup now. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #60,805 by tuberculosis 11/2/02 8:16:20 PM Reply	Nope But I'm very disappointed. Is it me or is the US gov beginning to look hopelessly corrupt? Where are the progressives? I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #60,983 by jb4 11/4/02 9:37:31 AM Reply	It IS you... ...but you just happen to be correct! jb4 "About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead. " -- Edsger W.Dijkstra (1930 - 2002) (I wish more managers knew that...)

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