Post #52,302
9/19/02 4:19:24 AM
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Alternatives to Visual BASIC
Yeah yeah I know already some of them:
Perl, Java, C++, Python, Smalltalk, etc.
What we have:
VB 6.0 code, using ADO, and some third party ActiveX controls. It was written in Excel VBA, but we are migration to VB 6.0 now. Database was in Excel, migrated to Access, in the process to SQL Server 2000 as soon as I finish the "Demo" database so we can test the structure before we copy it to a live database.
What it does:
Using just a Touch Screen and Barcode scanner, Nurses can keep track of surgical trays for a Hospital (Small, maybe, 10 to 24 worktstations and 1 server on our network for them. Server is NT 4.0 running SQL Server 2000, we hope). No keyboard, no mouse, no kidding. Supervisors can get the VB program installed on their company owned Windows 98+ workstation for extra money, and be able to use the mosue and keyboard and print out reports and do everything the workstations can. Workstations are as easy to use as an ATM, scan a barcode "doot!' and up pops info on that tray, scan in your employee badge "doot!" and it logs you in. Or you can use your finger to hit buttons, and a pop-up keypad appears on the screen and you can key in the numbers instead of barcoding them. So simple even most Nurses can use it, there are a few exceptions, and I don't know why. They pass the State Licensing, they get a LPN or RN, but they cannot enter data correctly? WTF? Some of them confuse "Missing Tray Items" with "Unused Tray Items", yet they blame us when 3 out of 1000 data entries are wrong, due to some nurse switching the numbers when they entered them. Get those nurses off of data entry duty and put them on something else. Sure hope that if I was in that hospital, that they don't confuse my catheter for an IV drip. :)
Anyway if we do move away from VB and other MS-Technology, what would be a good alternative to Visual BASIC and why? Our Boss wants it so that even a Palm Pilot or Windows CE device with a wireless network card can work with this program, failing that maybe a Tablet PC or small Notebook or laptop with a touch screen and barcode scanner. So far I have considered Java, or using a VNC client to a VNC server that runs the database and application.
[link|http://games.speakeasy.net/data/files/khan.jpg|"Khan!!!" -Kirk]
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Post #52,350
9/19/02 12:57:10 PM
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For the mobile stuff:
Your hardware is going to be too underpowered to run your app - so you need a light client interface - wap or web browser based custom for the small screen size.
If I had carte blanche to pick a new dev environment, I'd go download a copy of VisualWorks from cincom.com and get going. It'll run on PC's, Windows, Macs, Unix boxes, whatever and you can build both web interfaces and GUIs on top of the same business logic.
That's my suggestion. The download is free - can't hurt to try it.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #52,359
9/19/02 1:16:46 PM
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They have just released VisualWorks 7
Refactoring browser. Finally!
I'll report my impressions here shortly.
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #52,504
9/20/02 1:49:40 PM
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VisualWorks 7
Major, major win!
I needed to do some major refactoring on that little game I was writing. Doing it with 5.x was so hard, I gave up. After an evening of tinkering with VW7, I can say the process became a pleasure. That browser they used needed a major facelift!
We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
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Post #52,381
9/19/02 4:54:55 PM
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Hey, yeah--ezboard uses it why not us? :D
/ducking and running
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
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Post #52,445
9/20/02 6:24:34 AM
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A FORTRAN programmer can write FORTRAN code in any language
EZBoard was more about management issues.
I know, you're joking, but not everybody can see that.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #52,446
9/20/02 6:59:13 AM
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Damn, that's pretty deep!
a C programmer can write C in fortran or pascal or....
a C++ programmer can wite C++ in delphi
a Pascal programmer can write Pscal in C++ or Java
An XXX programmer can write XXX in yyyyyyy.
The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
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Post #52,447
9/20/02 8:29:14 AM
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About that second line, I have a couple of suggestions...
Da Beard (but not any more, we hear? Sis got over the heart attack yet?) writes: a C++ programmer can wite C++ in delphi 1: Yeah, sure -- just use short and cryptic names, and mess up your inheritance structure as much as possible! a C++ programmer can wite C++ in delphi 2: Of course he could -- but why not just use C++ Builder? :-) Christian R. Conrad
Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #52,466
9/20/02 10:55:08 AM
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Re: Damn, that's pretty deep!
An XXX programmer can write XXX in yyyyyyy.
That's not always true. Eg, you can't write Lisp in C, because it's strictly more expressive than C -- it would be easier to implement a Lisp in C, and then use that.
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Post #52,686
9/22/02 5:07:36 PM
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Partially disagree
A Lisp programmer working in C might feel the constraints of the language. But their style would still show the Lisp influence, and they would be more likely to, for instance, take a heavily recursive solution or reach for pointers to functions than a person raised on C would. They just conceive of things differently.
However it is easier to program like you are in another language when all of that other language's features are supported in the one that you have.
Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
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Post #52,473
9/20/02 11:07:32 AM
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Left out the qualification
"An XXX programmer can write XXX in yyyyyyy."
You need to add "where XXX is more primitive than yyyyyyyy".
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
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Post #52,450
9/20/02 8:59:28 AM
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Yep
I worked with an economist who was taught FORTRAN in school, and self-taught C.
His C had lots and lots of arrays and numbered variables. A few main routines. Single depth structs, etc.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #52,966
9/24/02 7:06:49 AM
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Likewise.
I once knew a guy who programmed everything like it was COBOL. I happened to see the effect in QuickBASIC, but I can imagine the effect in something like C...
Wade.
"Ah. One of the difficult questions."
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Post #52,830
9/23/02 11:00:19 AM
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New dev idiom
Well, not new, but maturing - PDF forms with Adobe Javascript as the scripting language - sort of "web without web" and all the display/printing is handled at the level of Postscript. I'm doing an entire company this way and the users are raving about it for ease of use. The stuff that shows up onscreen is exactly what they are used to filling out by hand. It takes only a few hours to add a new form and make it interact with existing ones. Each form has an associated workgroup DB that gets replicated periodically or on demand. So, the forms have a life of their own, just like in real life. And you can build from the outside in, which is very natural.
(PS - Adobe Javascript is not your father's HTML forms world.)
-drl
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Post #53,784
9/29/02 1:47:05 AM
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Avoid web-based
(* wap or web browser based custom for the small screen size. *)
Nahw! You want coordinate-based control of the screen. Flow-based (nested) layout management of widgets goes down-hill really fast for non-trivial UI's.
Others may disagree, but that is my .02.
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #53,969
9/30/02 12:46:35 PM
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Re: Avoid web-based
Agreed, but disgreed. Avoid web-based, use Acrobat for forms. It's killer-diller! And it's completely transparent across anything that can run Acrobat (Reader). It's close to realizing my dream of HTML/PDF unification.
-drl
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Post #54,153
10/1/02 12:25:23 AM
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okay now I am totally confused
html is a language that allows input fields across a lot of platforms. The input can be used to access a lot of legacy and non legacy type data which is then displayed back to the user in a co-herent fashion. It is called stove-piping. What the heck is wrong with that?
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #55,000
10/5/02 12:43:18 AM
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What, character Lynx?
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #55,033
10/5/02 3:37:40 AM
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Yes.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #59,582
10/25/02 11:07:06 PM
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Fsck Lynx. Don't hold the other 99.9% hostage
________________
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Post #54,158
10/1/02 2:09:45 AM
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I got your coordinates right here
<input type="text" style="position: absolute; left: 100px; top: 60px; width:100px; height:20px" />
--
Chris Altmann
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Post #55,002
10/5/02 12:50:23 AM
10/5/02 12:51:34 AM
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re: I got your coordinates right here
That is a start, but there is still the whole event-handling and "session persistence/redraw" issue.
Rather than rekindle that battle all over again, here are links to my side of the story: [link|http://geocities.com/tablizer/webstif.htm|[link|http://geocities.com/tablizer/webstif.htm|http://geocities.co.../webstif.htm]] and [link|http://geocities.com/tablizer/scghist.htm| [link|http://geocities.com/tablizer/scghist.htm|http://geocities.co.../scghist.htm]]
________________
oop.ismad.com
Edited by tablizer
Oct. 5, 2002, 12:51:34 AM EDT
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Post #55,032
10/5/02 3:31:39 AM
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re: I got your coordinates right here
There is a fourth approach: store the view state in hidden, compressed HTML form fields to be re-loaded into RAM on the next pass. The problem with this approach is that we cannot easily "interrupt" one form or screen with another, and then come back. Therefore, I will not discuss it any further.
Too bad you dismiss this approach because up until this point you were describing the ASP.NET model almost exactly. Yes I realize your objections to having to pass viewstate back and forth, but the meat of your article was how to make the best of the web situation. If you are worried about interrupting a form, you could open the new form in a separate window (like most traditional VB apps would), then use client side scripting to trigger a refresh in the original form if needed. Some people seem to also be storing the (hidden form field) viewstate in a (server side) session variable for later use. I suppose you could store it in a table too :) PS. Have you ever looked at XUL from the Mozilla project? Not what you looking for either (It also uses JS+DOM, but at a higher level of GUI abstraction), but it could be a platform on which to build your ideas. You could make your own SCGUIzed Mozilla based browser. --
Chris Altmann
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Post #55,083
10/5/02 6:18:47 PM
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why on the client?
If you are worried about interrupting a form, you could open the new form in a separate window (like most traditional VB apps would), then use client side scripting to trigger a refresh....
If you are going to depend on client-side scripting, which is often buggy, version-sensative, and inconsistent, then you might as well go with an applet-type approach. That would be better than JavaScript+DOM imo if it was not so bloated. JavaScript+DOM is a "medium client", not fat, but medium; plus it is a sloppy addon to the HTML model instead of built for GUI's up front.
Better to just byte the bullet and store the "state" or "UI image" on the server rather than the client IMO. It makes things conceptually far simpler.
PS. Have you ever looked at XUL from the Mozilla project?
I may have. It sounds familiar, but from a while ago. I have not been playing with SCGUI much lately.
B-to-B stuff just needs better, simpler HTTP-friendly GUI protocols. Nobody seems to want to directly solve this, living with kludgey hackey approaches instead and worrying about performance instead of programmer productivity, which is usually the more important thing for B-to-B. They assume everybody is ebay.
Thanx for the feedback, -T-
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #52,354
9/19/02 1:05:46 PM
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Uhm, take a wild guess at what I'm going to say...
Or better yet, take a look at my comment in the Database forum.
But, to be honest, I don't know if Delphi / Kylix do -- or will ever -- support stuff like Palm Pilots or WinCEtops. (Unless you put Linux on them, then Kylix will do -- but then they're not really Palm Pilots or WinCEtops any more, are they? :-)
Christian R. Conrad
Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #52,898
9/23/02 6:00:12 PM
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Delphi?
At least you can use Kylix to port it to Linux?
Glen Austin
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Post #52,963
9/24/02 4:13:26 AM
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Take another wild guess at what it was I said... :-)
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Post #53,786
9/29/02 1:51:33 AM
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Nahw, Delphi turns one into a cussing madman ;-)
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #55,087
10/5/02 7:36:34 PM
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did you email or contact jake123?
Seemed to have answers to a lot of your concerns.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
qui mori didicit servire dedidicit
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Post #55,266
10/7/02 10:47:18 AM
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Not only that...
I (and my supplier) is willing to be very flexible in our terms, and to aid in getting you started with development. We are in a position where getting clients is far more important than making a huge profit... albeit not more important than avoiding losing money;). Of course, if your management refuses to consider anything else, well, there's not much that can be done; OTOH, I would be quite happy to work with you to put together a very strong presentation about why it is worth considering... including sending you a Not For Resale copy of the base system, and as many dev tools as I can legally send you without incurring costs, so that you can evaluate how useful it would be for you.
The NFR copy would have to wait a bit... I would think you'd want to wait until I start getting RCs of version 1.1 (should be within a couple of weeks, if not sooner), as you'd most certainly find that one easier to get up and running than the current 1.0 release...
Another issue to consider is that the language in question (REXX) also means that you can look at some other platforms, including Windows (there's a rexx dev env available from IBM that includes gui tools), Linux (ditto, but no money required), and IBM mainframes, where it's the language of choice.
At any rate... think about it and get back to me! My address is in my .sig... just change that "at" to @ and remove the spaces.
Regards,
Jack
--
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* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *
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* Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *
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