Post #47,726
8/1/02 10:03:05 AM
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J2EE vs .Net - Urgent help needed
My boss just called a meeting for tomorrow to discuss moving our web app from ASP to either J2EE or .NET. He thinks there needs to be a discussion.
--Despite the known security problems with MS stuff
--Despite the fact we've lost business because our web app will only run on MS servers
--Despite the fact that I've been feeding him just about everything I can find on industry trends vis a vis MS (the good ones that indicate companies are finally wising up and moving away from MS)
I've searched through IWETHEY and found some information. But I could use more. Perhaps something new came out. And the more neutral the source, the better. Many of the programmers here will automatically discount valid criticism of .NET if the source contains the words java or sun.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I like my company and want it to succeed. While some people use the Titanic when evaluating management decisions, I would have to say that voluntarily selecting MS is better compared to the kamikaze. The Titanic was an accident; kamikaze was deliberate.
Brian Bronson
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Post #47,739
8/1/02 12:20:47 PM
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The short list I gave management last year
Yes, all points here are debatable (and NO I don't want to debate them...just helping out a friend), and you'll have to do a lot of re-research, but this should give you some direction?
- Interoperable
- Especially true for systems with no graphical component, like web servers
- Works with any database
- Works with any popular web server
- Runs on any popular operating system. "The Internet is a global multi-platform medium. Don't get stuck with a single platform solution."
- XML (THE major interoperation standard) and Java were designed for each other; Sun Microsystems' Jon Bosak is chair of the XML Working Group
- Can run code written in other languages
- Object Oriented
- Easier to read and understand
- Perfectly matches UML (system modeling) syntax
- Perfectly matches CORBA (software interoperability ) spec. (and developers using CORBA over MS'COM is 2 to 1)
- More modular code means easier re-use of code
- Re-use means presentation can change without rewriting business logic =
massive time savings
- Business logic modules can be written once and re-used by many other
components
- Easier to upgrade and rework
- Easier to maintain
- ASP.NET promises full object-orientation but is not yet available, and when it is, it will be 4 years behind Java. Current ASP is not object-oriented.
- Package structure makes it easier to share code w/others (or have
it shared with you!)
- Easy To Learn
- It's becoming the number one language used in colleges to teach programming (79% in 1999 have a Java class, half of those make it a requirement)
- Similar syntax to C++. "On average, our developers became proficient in Java in a month or less."
- JSP allows the web designer to learn small subsets of Java, or the full language.
- Superior Programming Features
- Error handling is required while code is being written (unlike some languages) = fewer crashes, less downtime
- Built-in Web server features
- Multithreaded engine = lower overhead
- Powerful security features
- Memory is handled for you = Harder to write bad code
- Modified code is automatically updated by the webserver = coding "on the fly"
- Attracts smarter developers
- Built for Unicode from start to finish = more foreign language support
- Human-readable system documentation is automatically built using
Javadoc
- Do not have to run a program to check its syntax, unlike ASP
- Low cost
- All components are free of charge:
- The specification (language) is free
- The development tools are free
- The deployment tools are free
- Most basic components are already built and ready to plug in = less
"rebuilding the wheel"
- Estimates quote anywhere from four to ten times faster development times over C++ due to ease of coding
- Less code: up to four times less than the same program in C++
- Open Source means buggy code can be fixed in-house, rather than waiting for the vendor to fix their bugs.
- Industry Adoption
- Vendors: IBM, Sun, Oracle, BEA, Applix, Borland
- Big-name users:
Wal-Mart (Fortune #2)
Charles Schwab & Co., Inc.
United Airlines
Knight-Ridder News
TIAA-CREF
Citibank
Nextel
Verizon (Fortune #10)
United Parcel Service
NEC
Wells Fargo
Nortel Networks
NTT DoCoMo
NASA, incl. Mars missions and Hubble
Boeing (Fortune #15)
Delta Air Lines
Home Depot
Xerox
United States Postal Service
- More developers choosing Java
- Handheld Support
Finisterre said that while he wanted to resolve the dispute with HP, he resented receiving DMCA threats. "We are like the guys that found out that Firestone tires have issues on Ford explorers," he said. "It's not our fault your Explorer has crap tires. We just pointed it out. We should not get attacked for pointing out issues in someone\ufffds product nor for proving it is possible."
Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
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Post #47,748
8/1/02 2:15:16 PM
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Re: The short list I gave management last year
Thanks for the updated list (I recognize it from your response to a similar question about a year ago!)
Another thing I forgot to add: our back end is written in Forte, which is owned by Sun. I hope that has some pull. But I have heard my boss say he'd love an all MS solution because then he doesn't have to think about the decision.
Brian Bronson
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Post #47,750
8/1/02 2:35:14 PM
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Gives credence to someone's .sig
..I have heard my boss say he'd love an all MS solution because then he doesn't have to think about the decision. *grin* Validates the quote from Grygus that someone (Drew?) has as their .sig :) -----
Steve
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Post #47,768
8/1/02 5:18:19 PM
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Yup, that's me
You might try quoting some [link|http://www.ivory.org/lyrics/freewill.html"| Rush] at him: If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. Then point out that he's made the choice that an all-Microsoft solution is better than any possible alternative, without having done an actual comparison first. ===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #47,782
8/1/02 7:04:49 PM
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Trust you checked out Andy's aax.net also (?)
IMhO - excellent phraseology for the less-than techno ept == who you are dealing with. Those who understand quite well all the arcane reasons Why M$ Sux, and could give a 3-hour dissertation with bulleted points: aren't necessarily the best ones to present the crux of the Issues to such as you describe.
Check out the several options [link|http://www.aaxnet.com| Here.]
AFAIK Andy deals with a wider variety of 'ordinary business folks' than most here (?) but more importantly - he's heard all the usual sophistry [as with that excellent .sig from one of his comments].
Hell.. if I were a middleman doing something today (non-programming related natch) for such a one in a quandary: I'd advise that person to hire Andy as a consultant. You'd get a no-BS reply in plain English. Cheap! compared to learning it the Hard way.
Person would still need the guts to Act on it, of course.. but couldn't evade the real decision being made - because he "claimed to have been snowed by some techno- type who couldn't speak biz-Engrish".
Luck,
Ashton
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Post #48,114
8/5/02 9:13:55 AM
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J2EE package recommendations needed
Well, the meeting was better than I thought. My boss's first words were "I don't think we can afford to restrict our potential customer base to Windows only." Sounds promisin. The only decision we've made is to do some research and reconvene in a week.
Does anybody have any experience with the various J2EE packages? Any pros and cons of Weblogic vs IPlanet vs JBoss, etc?
Thanks
Brian Bronson
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Post #48,115
8/5/02 9:23:47 AM
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WebLogic, WebSphere ick
Inprise (Borland) App Server is excellent, but hard to sell. Lightweight, inexpensive, fast, great admin tools.
WebLogic is expensive, bloated, slow, and buggy.
WebSphere is expensive, bloated, and hard to figure out.
Orion Server is lightweight and well-designed... inexpensive. The admin tools can be buggy. All in all we like it (it's part of Oracle 9i).
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #48,127
8/5/02 10:02:47 AM
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JBoss experience at last job...
It was pretty snazzy. Free and free. It Just Worked.
Deploying new war's was as simple as copying a file into the deploy directory. Want to undeploy the war? rm the file. Within 5 seconds (usually less), the JBoss server noticed the change and deployed/undeployed successfully.
Easier to install on *nix than on Windows, it seemed...But then, we were basically a Linux shop anyway.
-YendorMike
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
- Jimmy Buffett, June 20, 2002, Tinley Park
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