Unemployed programmer seeking advice... (Is that all <g>)

Post #47,482 by rsteiner 7/30/02 1:38:12 PM Reply	Unemployed programmer seeking advice... (Is that all <g>) I love programming. I've written code since junior high school (for reference, I'm almost 40 now), I have a BSCS, and I've made my living designing, writing, and supporting software for almost 14 years now. I think I'm fairly good at it, I've been told many times by my customers, coworkers, and managers that I'm good at it, and as I said, I absolutely love doing it. For me it ain't the money; I'm a geek, dammit! :-) Unfortunately, my professional time was largely spent writing software for major airlines (the past 8+ years in the IT department at Northwest Airlines), and we all know what happened to that particular industry. My 13 years made me the junior programmer on my team of 11 people, and while I did survive the initial series of IT personnel reductions last fall (roughly 400 people, or 25% of the department), my position was finally eliminated back in mid-January. (as a sidenote, the NWA IT department has been reduced by roughly 40% since September 11, and almost all of those folks are "experienced" people (I'd guess the average experience of the folks laid off is around 10 years or so)). Needless to say, I'm still actively looking for employment after a little over six months, and while I do have a possible position pending at Unisys (they were my first employer...please don't laugh <g>), I really can't depend on it going through as it has dragged on for a few months already for various reasons. My initial inclination has been to focus on teaching myself languages and skills that are both (a) interesting to me and (b) more marketable outside the airline industry than my current TIP1100, Fortran, COBOL, OpenOLTP/Tuxedo, and SSG-based skillset, but I'm finding myself spinning my wheels a bit and uncertain where I should focus my efforts. My initial list of technologies to focus on is as follows (in no particular order): C under Linux/Solaris, Perl, CGI programming, PHP, Java. Are those things (or one of those things) reasonable ones to look at? I made the decision to start with Java, and I'm starting to (slowly) learn it here at home. I also want to learn Python, Ruby, and Tcl/Tk someday, but I don't know how much those languages would help me in gaining employment... Some time ago I picked up a copy of WROX Press' _Beginning Linux Programming_, and it looks like it contains excellent introductory overviews of various things that I'm interested in. I also picked up a copy of SAMS' _Teach Yourself Java2 in 21 Days_ not long ago for not much money (I'm about halfway through the book now) which seems like an okay book to me so far, and I've just installed the Netbeans IDE on one of my Linux boxes, but I've been finding that it has been relatively slow going at times (OO programming is new to me and Netbeans seems somewhat extensive, so there are a lot of "new" concepts for me to absorb). I don't know -- is Java a good direction to start in? If so, is Netbeans a "good" IDE for me to learn on, or are there other low-cost Java IDEs that'd be better for use as a learning tool? (I also have BlueJ, a much smaller IDE). I guess I'm mainly looking for pointers to specific tools or books (or online courses, perhaps) that you folks might've found to be helpful in the past, and maybe also some sort of validation for the direction I'm trying to head in. This is my second layoff and my second extended period of time without work, so I've been through it before, but it's still an unsettling experience as many of you probably know... A t D h V a A n N k C s E :-) -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,486 by wharris2 7/30/02 1:47:26 PM Reply	Your list looks OK But it won't hurt to have a good grasp of HTML, style sheets, and some sort of server page (whether ASP or JSP, I'm not sure it matters other than religiously) stuff. Java has its place but it's turning mainly into a server language, not a fun language, and it can get hard to wrap your brain around enterprise java. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #47,488 by rsteiner 7/30/02 1:55:31 PM Reply	Good thoughts... Thanks! I have a good handle on "basic" HTML (I've been hand-editing my own web pages for 5-6 years, and I also built and maintained my team's site on the NWA intranet for a while), but I don't know much about interactive pages at present. More stuff to look at. :-) Thanks! -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,490 by boxley 7/30/02 2:02:34 PM Reply	c and perl on solaris and linux perl is getting bigger at the shops Ive been mooching around in. C well, because I guess. Know the OS better than the other guy, that usually helps. thanx, bill ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #47,498 by tablizer 7/30/02 2:46:25 PM Reply	The "in thing" now is canning programmers (* My initial inclination has been to focus on teaching myself languages and skills that are both (a) interesting to me and (b) more marketable outside the airline industry than my current TIP1100, Fortran, COBOL, OpenOLTP/Tuxedo, and SSG-based skillset ) Many governments (fed, state, city, etc.) may be looking for mainframe technologists with a foot in "newer stuff". There are a lot of expected retirements in the works, and they still rely on mainframes, which won't go away quickly under budget pressure becase replacing them requires an expensive "investment" hump. However, gov hiring processes can be a funky maze of both gov burocracy and union protectionism and you have to learn how to play their hiring games. As far as what is* marketable, I have no fricken idea. Everything seems down these days. I have been in the "web" programming ring since about 1998, and the market seems flooded by ex-dot-com-ers right now. Java seems to have some demand, but mostly for the more skilled/experienced because Java is a fricken complicated mess and requires more man-power than expected to manage and babysit. Java could fall "out of style" just like any other bubble around. Picking technologies to bet one's career on is like picking stocks, and so will the advice. Your best bet IMO is to focus on being a "legacy conversion specialist" who knows how to integrate and/or convert old stuff to new stuff. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #47,550 by tablizer 7/30/02 11:58:59 PM Reply	IT Rust Belt - by Bob Lewis [link\|http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/07/15/020715opsurvival.xml\| [link\|http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/07/15/020715opsurvival.xml\|http://www.infoworl...survival.xml]] ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #47,725 by broomberg 8/1/02 9:46:38 AM Reply	Key point > Unless you're in the top rank, there's little > future for you in IT. I agree. IT is TOO crucial to a company to trust to less than "top rank" So whatever is left should be given to the lowest bidder capable of doing the job. Because that is what your competition will be doing. And then the rest of the population gets to spend less on the widgets that the industry produces.
Post #47,758 by rsteiner 8/1/02 4:28:52 PM Reply	Writing code is FUN for me... ...and I frankly don't care how much I'm paid as long as the amount I get pays the bills that I have. It's never been about the money for me -- why else do you think I worked for large corporations instead of startups? :-) In five years I'll be back with the airline, probably. That industry is too much fun to leave forever. It's getting from here to there that's the challenge... -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,784 by inthane-chan 8/1/02 7:29:20 PM Reply	Ditto here. However, I'm finding that "other goals" (house, kids, retirement) aren't going to match up with what I can expect to be paid for about the next 10-15 years. No, I'm not talking about expecting $60k right out of college - I can't even find a $30k job, which is rabbit hutch material around here. Plan accordingly. There are 10 types of people. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Post #47,951 by gdaustin 8/3/02 12:01:42 PM Reply	I love coding, BUT... I think my long term career goal of becoming a DBA on multiple platforms will probably serve my family better, anyway. Coding has changed in the last 3-4 years from being an enjoyable longer-term thing, permanent thing to being a "how fast can you get it out the door"? Earlier in my career, projects took 1-2 years, delays were not the end of the world, and we got it done "right" in due time. Now, if you don't have a major deliverable every 3 months, then you're toast. It's even worse at my company because the owner of the company believes you can have it written in a day or two. (But, I'm not complaining, because it IS a paycheck.) It's no longer fun for me to be in a race to get things done. I would rather take my time and do a good job. The code I'm rewriting now was thrown together in a day, then literally thousands of man hours have been expended trying to "patch" it to keep it running. I don't believe in MilSpec, either, but I do believe in at least some software design. My boss wanted me to patch this crappy code, AGAIN, on Friday and have it done by noon. When I was done patching at 2:30 pm, it was too late to put it in for the day and he was disappointed. (What kind of crap is that?) Now the manager of customer support is on vacation, I'm not allowed to patch anything, and I've decided to take the week and just rewrite the whole damn thing. It's only 1000 lines of code anyway, and about 600 lines are just crap. It will be 1000 lines when I finish, but 600 of those lines will be comments (and 400 lines of really good code). Glen Austin Who is deciding that it's better to DBA than to code.
Post #48,591 by tablizer 8/7/02 5:30:45 PM Reply	No slider widget for $ (* ...and I frankly don't care how much I'm paid as long as the amount I get pays the bills that I have. It's never been about the money for me *) I wish it was possible to negotiate that way. If you lowball, then they are usually suspicious. BTW, I am seriously thinking about standing out on the street corner with a sign that says "will program for min. wage!". If I don't get some revenue stream soon, my wife will increase the pressure to either take on more house work (which I dread), or bag grocories (which bores the sh8t out of me). ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #48,594 by rsteiner 8/7/02 5:57:33 PM Reply	Re: No slider widget for $ > I wish it was possible to negotiate that way. If you lowball, then they are > usually suspicious. Heh. Well, I didn't mean money wasn't a priority at all. :-) It's just not the reason I chose to get into programming in the first place, and a higher salary is something that I'm willing to forego in place of other things (flexible hours, enjoyable/interesting subject matter, the freedom to work on self-directed projects, coworkers I enjoy collaborating with, etc.). I had almost everything at NWA (including decent pay and flight bennies that I didn't use), which is one reason why I want to go back. Eventually. > BTW, I am seriously thinking about standing out on the street corner with a > sign that says "will program for min. wage!". If I don't get some revenue > stream soon, my wife will increase the pressure to either take on more house > work (which I dread), or bag grocories (which bores the sh8t out of me). I already vacuum and do the bathrooms and litterboxes, but I did that before I was axed. I don't mind it as much as she does. :-) -- [link\|http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner\|-Rich Steiner] (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #48,599 by ben_tilly 8/7/02 6:25:30 PM Reply	It isn't whether you mind it more... It is whether you mind it more than you mind her minding it. :-) /duck Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #48,715 by rsteiner 8/8/02 5:50:18 PM Reply	Heh... Yes, you're right. :-) -- [link\|http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner\|-Rich Steiner] (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,501 by admin 7/30/02 3:02:52 PM Reply	Re: Unemployed programmer seeking advice... It seems to me that there is always room for people who can do database programming with a big-system mindset. Learn SQL, and pick up Oracle and learn it (or PostgreSQL, since you can program it in a subset of PL/SQL). If you are going to learn Java, then concentrate on servlets and J2EE. Java isn't a bad skill to have these days. CGI programming... forget it, other than the concepts. Most work nowadays is done with application servers, using ASP, JSP, or the like. Learn the concepts of sessions and cookies, though. C is very useful, as is gag C++. But only if you have to. ;-) If you want to learn OO with something more friendly than Java or C++, try Python or Ruby. Java isn't that bad, but the enormous breadth and depth of the libraries (and their sometimes incomprehensible order) can be daunting. Tier one (definitely marketable): SQL, Oracle, HTML, CSS, Javascript, web programming concepts, Java server-side programming Tier two (workhorses): Perl, C, C++ Tier three (nice to have): CGI programming, Python, Apache configuration, etc. Make sure you know things like build management, source code control, unit/regression testing, and the like... things that all help manage programming so that it doesn't get out of control. By "definitely marketable," I mean things that I see a good demand for on a daily basis. "workhorses" means stuff that a lot of companies use behind the scenes to Get Stuff Done, but doesn't look as good on a resume by itself. "nice to have" is stuff that won't get you a job, but you can still get good concepts from that make you 1) interview better and 2) work better. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #47,506 by tablizer 7/30/02 3:21:00 PM Reply	DB2 versus Oracle (* database programming with a big-system mindset....Learn SQL, and pick up Oracle and learn it *) DB2 might be a good bet. IBM is working hard to take Oracle's turf, and so far is doing a pretty good job at it. Once IBM reaches that "magical PHB short-list" level, demand may sore (relatively speaking). Oracle has too much competition these days. Their glory years are behind them IMO. Their only save is the "lock in" they have generated at big corps (too hard to switch). I have personally thot about going into DB admin, but decided it might bore me. I would rather create instead of be a glass-house-like impedement between developers and the database. Some like that role of gate-keeper, but not me. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #47,522 by gdaustin 7/30/02 6:13:56 PM Reply	But tab - you're a shoe in! I think DB Admin would be perfect for you! And believe me, it's not "boring" work. I'm a DB2 DB Admin, but 2 weeks ago, I got to performance tune our SQL Server (fixing some performance problems), and I program in Java (mainly Data Access components that turn table data into objects for programmers), and today I did a Delphi program with table access which reconciles pharmacy claim request/response for batches of claims. So, I think you would be perfect for DB Admin, mainly because most companies CAN'T do without the DB Admin, but programmers are optional. Don't worry, when you're not doing the boring stuff (backups, expanding tablespaces, etc.) you'll be writing programs to verify the integrity of data, fixing data problems, diagnosing DB corruption, etc. With a handle like tablizer, I think DB Admin is perfect for you. Bryce? or Brice? Glen Austin
Post #47,589 by lincoln 7/31/02 10:30:46 AM Reply	Where to get Oracle? Quote: Learn SQL, and pick up Oracle and learn it Where does one get it for home learning? It's not like I can just buy an Oracle database or Oracle software tools off the shelf at CompUSA. lincoln "Four score and seven years ago, I had a better sig"
Post #47,594 by admin 7/31/02 11:02:27 AM Reply	Re: Where to get Oracle? [link\|http://otn.oracle.com/software/products/oracle9i/content.html\|Here]. Free for development: We grant you a nonexclusive, nontransferable limited license to use the programs only for purposes of developing and prototyping your applications, and not for any other purpose. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #47,602 by orion 7/31/02 11:40:17 AM Reply	Which is why I like Oracle because they give developers a free copy to learn from. 9i is about three CD-ROMs to download. Hope you have a DSL or faster connection. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,694 by tablizer 7/31/02 11:05:52 PM 7/31/02 11:06:26 PM Reply	unless you count time (* because they give developers a free copy to learn from... *) I tried that once, and kept getting "listener" errors. Packaging a complex product with complex interprocess mechanisms meant for overpaid DBA's into a plug-n-play CD set does not seem to work too well. Software that takes up 3 CD's is bound to be a monster. ________________ oop.ismad.com Edited by tablizer July 31, 2002, 11:06:26 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #47,698 by broomberg 7/31/02 11:27:01 PM Reply	Overpaid DBAs? Maybe. Or maybe well valued. Either way, it is a good skillset, but with limited jobs open you really have to work hard to get a position. I'm not a DBA (I pretend to be one when the real DBA isn't around), but it takes me about 10 minutes to install and setup a sample running Oracle instance with the current setup. You no longer have to "create" a database, it copies a precreated one for you. Since I hand crafted my system, it takes about 2 hours for a real one.
Post #47,949 by gdaustin 8/3/02 11:14:23 AM Reply	One More Thing (Favorite saying of Uncle from Jackie Chan Adventures, a cartoon that my kids watch) It is niiicceee to be the overpaid DBA. I'm one! And certified, too! One More Thing Companies care about nothing but money. Government cares about data retention. Who do you think wins? Records must be kept. Too expensive to keep them in files, database perfect job! Programs come and go, but data stays around at least for government required retention period. One More Thing Do not badmouth my profffeeeessssiiiiooonnnn! (I'm really getting into this Uncle thing...) Glen Austin (Aka Uncle) (should I change my handle?)
Post #47,507 by tuberculosis 7/30/02 3:31:20 PM Reply	Not a bad list There seems to remain an abundance of "Java Web Architect" positions. I hate the work as I think Java is lame and the web lamer but that's what I keep seeing. (I'd rather build apps - real ones). For sure RDBMS experience is very important in biz and an Oracle DBA can always find a good paycheck. Learn C. You may not get paid for it but its what everything else is written in and Unix is particularly C oriented. If you can find the time - learn a real OO language. Not to get paid but to expand your mind. Smalltalk (www.squeak.org or www.cincom.com) is the benchmark by which OO languages are measured. Python and Ruby are also good mind expanders. Perl - well, I never could get into it but I know people get a lot done with it and if your mind is built that way, well god bless and help you. It will probably serve you well. I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #47,518 by tablizer 7/30/02 5:42:43 PM Reply	nit fuel Smalltalk (www.squeak.org or www.cincom.com) is the benchmark by which OO languages are measured. Many may not agree with that. There tend to be the "strong typing" croud and the "dynamic" croud. The strong-typing croud would probably recommend something like Eiffle over Smalltalk as "how OO should be". ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #47,563 by tuberculosis 7/31/02 3:25:32 AM Reply	Yes but those people are wrong :-P I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration. Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Post #47,540 by ben_tilly 7/30/02 10:10:02 PM Reply	Unsuprisingly I will suggest picking up a scripting language If it were employable, I would say Ruby. Personal impression. For me Ruby takes about half the code of Perl. It doesn't run as fast though, and I have to write all of the bits that in Perl I would get from CPAN. YMMV. Since Perl is more employable, I will suggest it instead. Unless you want to do Python, which might be a better language to learn. (That seems to be a personality thing.) For Perl I will recommend [link\|http://www.perlmonks.org\|Perl Monks] as a good resource, and O'Reilly books as generally reliable references. (Learning Perl does what its title promises. Makes it easy for anyone who can think with a "programming mindset" to learn Perl.) Now why a scripting language? It is easy. Scripting languages are generally pretty easy to pick up, and you can get a lot more done in a hurry with them. They all have good web page support. That allows you to fairly easily learn the major protocols and understand how that works. Which is good material if you are likely to come anywhere near the web. They all have good database support that is simple to use. Building an interactive web page is a good reason to set up a database, and a good way to use SQL enough to do something useful. There is a pretty large fairly common core of ideas that scripting languages use (eg hashes and regexps). So once you have learned one, you can learn others. JavaScript is a scripting language. Unfortunately it is not an easy one to debug, and it is in a complex environment, so learning to program it directly is not so easy. But learn a scripting language first and it carries over really well. Much more closely than, say, a system language. Scripting languages support a lot of different programming paradigms. Java really pushes you to try to be OO. With a scripting language you can put off learning OO until you want to, and then learn what the OO thing is in its own good time. (If OO is a primary goal for you, then Python or Ruby may be a better choice than Perl. Perl's OO works and is flexible, but it isn't very well integrated into the language. OTOH if you do go with Perl, then I will strongly recommend Damian Conway's Object Oriented Perl to help you get the point and see the possibilities of OO.) So what it all boils down to is that you can learn enough of a scripting language to be useful pretty easily, and then turn that knowledge around to start picking up a fair variety of job skills that you really want to say you have. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #47,760 by rsteiner 8/1/02 4:35:32 PM Reply	Thanks, Ben... Strangely enough, I already have copies of _Learning Perl_ and _Programming Perl_ on my bookshelf, and it's very high on my list of things to learn. Probably second after Java, or maybe even first if I can find an interesting reason to use it more around here. I'm a big fan of scripting languages myself -- during my time at NWA I wrote a lot of utilities using a Unisys-platform-specific scripting language called CALL, and I found that the use of an interpreted language was be quite helpful when I was debugging things. Very fast turnaround time from "oops" to "fix". :-) -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,777 by broomberg 8/1/02 5:58:57 PM Reply	Re: Thanks, Ben... Don't bother with the Llama book. Get the big Coriolis Black book (there is also a small hand book)
Post #47,788 by ben_tilly 8/1/02 8:51:07 PM Reply	Why not? And isn't the big Coriolis Black Book the one that Ben Kosse loved which didn't bother doing error checks on open? Which is the kind of shortcoming that means that I would never even consider recommending it? Am I mixing it up with something else? As for the Llama, it is simple I admit. But it doesn't do anything stupid without reason. Programming Perl I am more ambivalent about. If you are the kind of person who can do that, starting in with "perldoc perl" and working from there gives basically the same material, only guaranteed to match whatever what is on your machine, and including various useful modules as well. OTOH it is an important book to have, even if I haven't touched either of my copies in a couple of years (except to settle arguments about what it says). And if online documentation isn't you... But the Perl Cookbook I would add as a must-have for learning common idioms and techniques. Random example: C programmers do not generally think of having a hash whose values are irrelevant. (Why would you do that you ask? Well does the name %is_found suggest anything?:-) Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #48,026 by broomberg 8/4/02 10:08:32 AM Reply	Dunno I't been so song since I've made that decision I don't remember why. Sorry. It has gone from a reasoned decision to cargo cult programming. I just flipped pages until I saw an open example and it included an 'or dir' construct. I won't claim all of them do. You MUST have Programming Perl (CAMEL). There is no choice. Nobody wanders perldoc and hits on things serendipitiously. But you can do that in flipping around in the book in the bathroom. Just commit to carrying the book for a month, and you become amazed what the language can do. Also, yes on the Cookbook. I still pull it out occasionally. I love it.
Post #48,104 by ben_tilly 8/5/02 6:56:34 AM Reply	Perhaps... I will admit that my introduction to Perl was picking up Programming Perl, getting less than a half-dozen pages through it, and my wife asked me what I wsa laughing about. After that I was clearly doomed. (Appreciating the humor is essential. For instance they have a simple test-grader and a comment about how it won't work properly if "Carol" appears twice. Carol was one of the few names that didn't appear twice in the sample input.) But after a couple of years I went from Programming Perl to perldoc. You can grep online documents, and there is more there. And when I picked up a "free" copy of the third edition, I never read it. However I still know the second edition well-enough to pick up a copy and quickly find the right page to settle arguments. (OTOH I am more likely to give people the appropriate perldoc command an instructions on what string to search for.) Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #47,616 by andread 7/31/02 12:50:09 PM Reply	Teach? You have a bachelor's many community colleges and career colleges have a hard time getting qualified IT help A Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link\|http://wxxe.org\|Tune In]
Post #47,761 by rsteiner 8/1/02 4:36:14 PM Reply	Not for me, I'm afraid... While I love doing one-on-one mentoring, or even mentoring small groups, I don't like getting in front of a group. I've done it a few times, and I've learned that I can do it, but that's really not how I want to make a living. -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,654 by deSitter 7/31/02 5:06:12 PM Reply	Hi! Haven't seen that moniker since the old IWE days. Matloff points out that hiring practices in IT are so fscked up, it doesn't really matter what you learn. Programmers should be hired by aptitude and not skillset, since any decent programmer can absorb a new idiom in the time it takes to swill down a case of Dr. Pepper. But that's not how people get hired. I turned down a job doing APL because taking it would have meant getting cast as a programmer in a "dead" idiom again. Instead I took a job as God in a small company for less money, so I get to be a DBA, a web designer, help desk manager, system admin, etc. etc. on Windows and on UNIX. This type of IT job will always be needed. -drl
Post #47,685 by orion 7/31/02 10:13:54 PM Reply	Requirements for the IT jobs they changed, and companies are wanting so much more now, than they did in 1997. In 1997 if you had a Two Year Degree you could get hired. In 2002, now, a two year degree gets your resume pitched in the trash unless the HR Department is savvy enough to see your other skills and experience, or if you can somehow get your resume past HR and straight into IT you might stand a chance. Beer Job I applied for required: PGP ASP Visual BASIC IIS Visual Interdev Oracle DHTML Javascript VBScript Crystal Reports Third Party ActiveX Controls COM+ XML SOAP TOAD Netscape Internet Explorer Same job at the company that I applied for in 1997 required: Visual BASIC Javascript VBScript HTML They added on the other technologies later. If the IT Workers don't learn or use these newer technologies, they will be locked out of a lot of jobs. I thought it was interesting that they wanted to use PGP on an FTP Server. I never used it for such, but I did use it for Email and File protection. They said there was rumors that the company that owns PGP will either sell it, or go out of business and discontinue it. I told them about GNUGP and they seemed to be a bit interested in it, but when I mentioned that it was Open Sourced, it got me a mixed reaction. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #47,764 by rsteiner 8/1/02 4:41:30 PM Reply	Hullo! Yeah, I didn't follow the IWETHEY crowd to their new home because I didn't like the forum software they moved to initially (don't remember the reason offhand, but it was important to me at the time). I've been relatively active on USENET since, particularly the OS/2 groups, but I've avoided web forums for the most part. This software doesn't seem to be too bad, though. -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,828 by deSitter 8/2/02 9:31:07 AM Reply	Boo Hoo OS/2 I have new ThinkPad A31, the best machine I've ever had. I was thinking the other day what a pity it didn't come preloaded with a modern version of OS/2 :( instead of Windows MM (NT ME SE XP - pretty soon they'll need TLAs). Welcome home. -drl
Post #47,697 by broomberg 7/31/02 11:16:22 PM Reply	My biased opinion: I'm a backend Perl bigot. Not for web generation, but large scale data manipulation. Joined with Oracle, it's a good, well paid skill set. You can get an account on otn.oracle.com and dl the latest full Oracle for Linux for free. Go get latest Camel for reference and the Coriolis Black book for education. Also, "Data Munging" is a winner, as well as the DBI book. Do NOT attempt to learn a lot of varying technologies to fill out your resume. You can't possibly be good in more than 1 or 2, and you will get tripped up on a technical interview on the rest. I've crucified many people this way. Note: I'm actively looking to hire an dual COBOL/Perl programmer, since we have an overloaded mainframe that we are pulling jobs of and running under Unix. We are NOT running COBOL, though, we are rewriting in Perl. So the ability to read COBOL and write Perl is a winning combination for us.
Post #47,721 by deSitter 8/1/02 8:54:59 AM Reply	Be Specific What exactly do I want to download? Personal? Lite? I hate unspecificity. -drl
Post #47,724 by broomberg 8/1/02 9:35:32 AM Reply	Re: Be Specific Enterprise baby! Oracle 9.2.0.1 Was the 1st choice on this menu: [link\|http://otn.oracle.com/software/products/oracle9i/content.html\|http://otn.oracle.c...content.html] I can't give you any further since the URLs get distorted from logging in.
Post #47,745 by deSitter 8/1/02 12:38:43 PM Reply	Danke
Post #47,767 by rsteiner 8/1/02 4:53:28 PM Reply	Re: My biased opinion: > I'm a backend Perl bigot. From what I know of Perl at this point, some bigotry seems justified. :-) > Not for web generation, but large scale > data manipulation. Joined with Oracle, > it's a good, well paid skill set. > > You can get an account on otn.oracle.com > and dl the latest full Oracle for Linux > for free. That's an interesting thought. I've done some SQL stuff using Unisys RDMS (queries, insertions/deletions, etc., from Fortran and COBOL) and Sybase (much the same in C via CT-Lib), but Oracle is something I've not played with, and it seems to be popular. > Go get latest Camel for reference and the > Coriolis Black book for education. Also, > "Data Munging" is a winner, as well as the > DBI book. Thank you. Wow. I'd totally forgotten about the Coriolis books. > Do NOT attempt to learn a lot of varying > technologies to fill out your resume. You > can't possibly be good in more than 1 or 2, > and you will get tripped up on a technical > interview on the rest. I've crucified > many people this way. That might be good advice. Unfortunately, the stuff I'm very good at is not at all marketable. Right now, I need to sit down and decide exactly where to focus: either Java, Perl, or brushing up on C again. -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #47,774 by broomberg 8/1/02 5:49:32 PM Reply	Re: My biased opinion: The problem with Java is the HUGE amount of APIs that you have to learn to be productive. You can be operational with Perl in a few days, and be really good in a month or so (if you were any good to start with). Java takes much longer. Let me add, though, I like Java. I spent 2 days cramming for the Sun Java test, with NO exposure to it before then, and failed by one question. Imagine the idiots that lucked out the same way and now claim to be programmers. I tried it that way simply to get the cert since my company is a Sun dealer, and I needed one additional cert to maintain our authorization. Good thing I failed. I then got to go to a Solaris kernel tuning class instead. I then spent about 3 months actually learning it, for a paying project. I can't claim any expertise, and very little experience now. It seems there is a new set of APIs every week, depending on the style of interface, network, database, etc, etc, etc. But I was learning it in the days of the AWT to SWING migration. For quick data mangling is sucks, but as an alternative to ANY M$ language, it's fine. Don't bother with 'C' (says the old C programmer). If you MUST go to that type of language, then go Java. If not, go Perl.
Post #47,781 by tonytib 8/1/02 6:57:34 PM Reply	Only consider 'C' if you're interested in embedded prog.
Post #47,863 by wharris2 8/2/02 1:48:54 PM Reply	C is still guts of lots of stuff Even C++ and Java and C# is C in disguise. The lawyers would mostly rather be what they are than get out of the way even if the cost was Hammerfall. - Jerry Pournelle
Post #47,787 by ben_tilly 8/1/02 8:47:24 PM Reply	Don't master many, but at least be exposed to several? Perl, being glue, winds up being used to interact with a lot of other technologies. For instance I would not even dream of hiring someone who claimed to be an experienced Perl developer for a web job if they didn't know OO Perl, CGI, and DBI. That doesn't mean that you need to be a DBA. It does mean that you don't ask stupid questions when someone says, "select foo from bar, baz where bar.blat = baz.blat". (Of course I could cheerfully recommend someone for a permanent Perl job if they were an experienced developer that I thought was competent.) Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #48,037 by broomberg 8/4/02 11:42:20 AM Reply	I wouldn't > (Of course I could cheerfully recommend someone for a permanent Perl job if they were an experienced developer that I thought was competent.) Perl is WAY too different. I'd make them do a research project before hiring them, and see how they managed to learn and what they came up BEFORE they became a real employee.
Post #48,105 by ben_tilly 8/5/02 7:02:46 AM Reply	Query Scott is not a Perl developer. I think we are agreed that he is competent. Would you really need him to do a research project so that you could judge whether he could learn Perl? Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #48,252 by broomberg 8/5/02 7:39:23 PM Reply	Poor example Scott is brilliant. You said competent. It is very difficult for me to judge how competency in one area of programming would translate into Perl. The person might suffer from baby chick imprint, and never be able to code in a different language. I see it in my office all the time. So it would require some proof.
Post #48,261 by ben_tilly 8/5/02 8:51:00 PM Reply	Haggling Remember the story of Shaw negotiating over sex? He started with a hypothetical offer of a million to establish that the woman was indeed a prostitute before trying to negotiate a more reasonable price. Same idea. My point is that there is a level of competency beyond which you would be willing to recommend someone despite their not knowing Perl. I agree that to recommend a non-Perl developer over a Perl developer I would want the non-Perl developer to impress me more. The question then becomes what ability differential is needed to make up for lacking Perl. Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #48,267 by broomberg 8/5/02 9:13:56 PM Reply	It's in my blood, I have to But no, you still don't understand! You used an example of Scott. Scott is one in a million. So are you. So am I. The fact I know both of you just means we are 3 in 3 million. There are NOT a lot left. So this means it is LESS likely that I will stumble across a person who can convince me to merely trust them, rather than prove themselves, no matter what other languages they know. And based on your new example, fine, she's a hooker. But does she have aids? Does she swallow? Does she have a killer pimp? Merely being a hooker is NOT enough information to make an informed decision on whether to sleep with her. Price is one small piece of the equation.
Post #48,276 by ben_tilly 8/5/02 9:44:27 PM 8/5/02 9:52:10 PM Reply	I think you missed my reference Perhaps I should refresh your memory... Shaw: Madam, would you sleep with me for a million dollars? Madam: Hmm, a million dollars, yeah, I guess I would. Shaw: Well then, would you sleep with me for ten dollars? Madam: Sir, what kind of woman do you take me for? Shaw: Madam, what kind of woman you are has already been established; what remains is just to agree on a price. My reference might have been an indicator that while I thought that my argument was fundamentally sound, you might be outraged by it. :-) Yes, I know that Scott is exceptional. One in a million? I dunno. I happen to know an amazing number of "one in a million" people. Enough to convince me that what we think of as one in a million isn't, really. Or rather he is, but there are a thousand different talents that strike us as being one in a million, so a thousand in a million can honestly claim to be one in a million at something impressive. Anyways were I in charge of hiring, I would be willing to put my impression of competency before specific skills. Even if I was wrong about their ability at learning that specific skill, if they manage to impress me, there is generally going to be some role where they will work out well, it is just a question of figuring out what. (Unless I am plain wrong, which hopefully I would figure out sooner rather than later.) Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown Edited by ben_tilly Aug. 5, 2002, 09:52:10 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #48,327 by broomberg 8/6/02 6:24:27 AM Reply	Ahh, ye of little HR experience It is FAR harder to fire a bad programmer who happened to be a good liar than it was to hire him. Even when you figure out they are worthless, expect to hold on to them for another 3 months, minimum. And during that timeframe, you have to attempt to have them do real work, which means they will screw it up, and increase your workload. Which will effectively TRIPLE your workload until they are replaced. Screw that. Test them.
Post #48,500 by ben_tilly 8/6/02 10:46:34 PM Reply	I would like to believe... that they would not impress me as competent unless there was something good to be said for them. Yeah, I am pretty likely wrong. But I don't know of any cases where I have failed yet. Note that I do give interviewees coding questions. Admittedly carefully chosen so that you could answer them without understanding Perl specifically, but not ones that you can get by just having a few memorized acronyms. (For instance figure out what this code does, why it is slow, and how to fix it.) Another type of question I like is "explain to me". I will take a basic concept that the person should know (eg for various languages I can ask about OO) and say, "Pretend that I know nothing about X. Explain X to me." I then proceed to interrupt their explanations with "stupid questions" (based on my honest guesses of where a novice might be derailed). It is amazing how quickly people for whom programming was always a black box where you just followed the template that worked get derailed on that one. I may be foolable. But I don't think that liars in particular find me easy to bypass. Cheers, Ben "Perl is like vice grips. You can do anything with it, and it's the wrong tool for every job." --Unknown
Post #47,955 by gdaustin 8/3/02 12:32:04 PM Reply	Try SouthWest Airlines... They love hiring in a recession. In addition, they're the only airline making money. Your Tuxedo/OLTP and COBOL would probably be valuable to them, along with airline experience. You'll need to move from the east to Dallas, TX, though. If you get an interview, some tips. 1. Treat everyone nicely on the trip to the interview. You are being watched (by the ticket agent, gate agent, flight attendant). They put a comment in your reservation that you are coming for an interview and each person who meets you along the way adds feedback in the comments of your reservation. The People department looks at the feedback at the end of the reservation and decides if you're "nice" enough. Personality matters more than skills here. 2. Shave and get a haircut. You may think you look fine and that an employer "shouldn't" care about your looks, but they do. You need to look sharp and professional. I hate this, because personally, I'm in your camp. But most of the rest of the world doesn't agree that programmers should look like programmers. 3. It's not over when they hire you. Everyone from the badge lady to the people out front still watch you. It's kind of a stepford wives, thing, I think. I hated it, but now that I know about it, I could deal with "being watched" if I knew about it, but they didn't warn me when I was a contractor, and I got canned off of a project because I wasn't careful. I learned a valuable lesson. 4. What you look like matters. What time you come to work matters. What you say and do matter a lot. People are watching. Glen Austin
Post #48,014 by rsteiner 8/4/02 2:53:53 AM 8/4/02 2:56:00 AM Reply	Heh. An interesting suggestion, but I'm not moving from the Twin Cities. I'll take a help desk or PC/network support job here before I'll move. (FWIW, I've turned down several potential positions in DC, FL, PA, etc., because they aren't local, as well as a fairly good shot at a position at United Airlines in Chicago. I have a house, friends, family, and a fiancee here that I don't wish to leave, and things aren't that tight yet.) -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. Edited by rsteiner Aug. 4, 2002, 02:56:00 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #48,063 by tonytib 8/4/02 6:51:58 PM Reply	You might check out the Seagate & such [link\|http://www.seagate.com/jobs\|Seagate jobs] They have facilities in Minneapolis and Shakopee. They do have some IT staff, but I'm not sure how much is at each facility. Some of their engineers are excellent. Tony
Post #48,300 by rsteiner 8/6/02 1:00:50 AM Reply	It's a thought -- I'll check it out. From first glance at their site, they have various positions in Eden Prairie (where I am now), Bloomington (next suburb to the east of me), and Shakopee (next suburb to the south of me). Seems like optimal placement geographically. :-) -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #48,290 by gdaustin 8/5/02 10:27:56 PM Reply	Might try ING or Wells Fargo I think they both have data centers in the Twin Cities. Now a question. Are Minneapolis and St. Paul really twins? Probably about as much as Dallas and Ft. Worth. :^) Glen Austin
Post #48,301 by rsteiner 8/6/02 1:18:33 AM Reply	Not really... Minneapolis is a more worldly artsy "big city" town, and St. Paul is a more laid back town. Neither one is very big, though. The Twin Cities metro area has almost 3 million people living in it now, but Minneapolis proper is less than 400,000, and St. Paul is less than 300,000. Suburbia reigns here. :-) We have a lot of data centers here, and two years ago the tech marketplace here was quite good from a technology job seekers perspective. Unfortunately, a lot of the larger employers around here like 3M, Unisys, NWA, Siemens, Qwest, etc., have been laying off, and many others are locked tight until the storm passes. -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Post #48,253 by broomberg 8/5/02 7:47:03 PM Reply	This made me think of you The airline control system was the kicker. [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/30/26535.html\|http://www.theregis...0/26535.html]
Post #48,302 by rsteiner 8/6/02 1:21:52 AM Reply	Heh. :-) I like the ZX81 part. Those Timex Sinclair boxes were neat little machines. :-) -Rich Steiner (OS/2 and Linux user in Eden Prairie, MN) The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.

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