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New No problem.
It is widely presumed everywhere but in the U.S. that the bombing was deliberate, based on evidence. The "accident" and "out of date map" stories were just cover. Here's some sample articles:

[link|http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2000/02/10/embassy/index.html|Salon.com]
[link|http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/oct1999/chin-o19.shtml|World Socialist Web Site]
[link|http://members.tripod.com/kosovo99/chinese.htm|Kosovo 99]
[link|http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/afm151.htm|Ventik's Aviation]

Of course, the evidence has not prevented many people (including some here in IWeThey), from repeatedly bringing up the Chinese embassy bombing as an example of stupid U.S. intellegence mistakes (that "asprin factory" bombing may also have "other viewpoints"). Yes, mistakes happen, but sometimes they don't.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: Good sources - very interesting! - an extract ...
This could well get to the heart of what happened re the bombing, it is from the 4th link Andrew supplied ...

Issue's that emerge from this extract are ...

1) Was China using stealth plane detection system (PCLS) that had 2 weeks before allowed one stealth bomber to be downed & 1 damaged ?
2) Was US response to retaliate by hitting the Chinese embassy where intelligence agents were working ?
3) Was the US bombing in Iraq last year taking out a similar system ?
Added question
4) Where did the lost stealth bomber wreakage end up Russia, China or both ?

*****************************

"China has shown great interest in elements of stealth technology, and, in February 1998, George Chen, a scrap metal dealer in New York, was accused by the US of attempting to ship sensitive navigation equipment from the F-117 to China. Such technology would have been useful, not only in replicating the navigation abilities, but also in identifying means to acquire and therefore engage the F-117.

But despite the thwarting of Chen's attempt, US sources claim, independently of the Chinese Embassy controversy, that China is close to fielding a revolutionary new anti-aircraft early-warning system capable of acquiring and tracking stealth aircraft. The new Passive Coherent Location System (PCLS) monitors ambient radio signals, such as civilian television and radio transmissions, and locates minute changes in the radio waves to locate hostile aircraft, no matter what their radar cross section is. This means that the system is capable of acquiring stealth platforms and is also un-jamable, due to the lack of any emissions from the monitoring system. As a result, the PCLS is also immune to Anti-Radiation Missiles (ARMs) and conventional Suppression of Enemy Air Defences (SEAD). Lockheed Martin has been marketing a similar system for some time, named 'Silent Sentry', for use as a low-cost air traffic control and air defence monitoring system.

In the light of this, it would seem to be relevant to consider that the F-117 lost over Serbia was lost two weeks prior to the strikes on the Chinese Embassy. On the same night that the F-117 was lost, another returned to base with extensive damage. If the PCLS was to be on the verge of deployment, then the Kosovo campaign would have presented the Chinese military establishment with an unprecedented and un-missable opportunity to validate the system in the field. It should also be noted that Belgrade and Beijing have close military ties and it is probable that, were the system in operation, the targeting locks provided by the PCLS would be relayed to Serbian air defences. Furthermore, if the stealth assets were as 'low-observable' as is claimed, the US would have seen no necessity in escorting these assets with non stealth defensive aircraft such as EA-6Bs and F-15Cs as they would not only have been redundant, but would have provided conventional air defence radars with a track on the overall package. When questioned about this, the Pentagon declined to comment, claiming ,operational matters' could be jeopardised. The Pentagon is still remaining silent on the causes of the F-117 loss, although an 'After Action Report' is due to be published soon and the official censor may declassify some details. Or he may not. In the immediate aftermath of the bombing, NATO said that it was aiming for the Hotel Yugoslavia, which was being used as Arkan's headquarters. This subsequently changed to the Belgrade Army central staff building and then to the Ministry of Defence north and south buildings - the MUP (Police) headquarters. Eventually, the statement was made that the target was the FDSP building. Whilst the fog of war can mean that even NATO could take some time to identify the intended target, the host of differing explanations and the layers of contradictions are far from convincing.

The three JDAMs dropped all hit the same side of the embassy building, leaving the front part unscathed. The section that bore the brunt of the damage was the Chinese military attache's office. Despite the fact that the embassy building was evacuated of all nonessential personnel during the hours of darkness to avoid any potential casualties, three Chinese were killed and more than 20 injured, including Ven Bo Koy, the military attache The Chinese official statements claim that the three dead were all journalists. It is very rare; not to say unprecedented in this journalist's experience, for members of the media to be allowed to stay in diplomatic buildings, let alone the offices of the military attache alone, and at night.

It seems more likely that, far from being journalists, the three were either intelligence officers or technicians operating the Elint systems monitoring the strikes being carried out in their vicinity. "


Cheers

Doug Marker

Expand Edited by dmarker2 July 18, 2002, 08:19:25 AM EDT
New "Oh what a tangled web we weave
when first we practice to deceive Stealth."


ie. Never again shall there be Secrets.

Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle.. Cackle..
New Pess Release on the US Bombings of Iraq in 2001
Here are a couple of links re the two major bombings of Iraq in 2001. 1st one was Feb & 2nd one August (have tried to locate press report that specifically mentioned systems installed by Chinese contractors but haven't found it yet)

*********************************
1)

[link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/02/20010216-2.html|Ari Fleischer Speaks on US bombing of radar facilities - Feb 16 2001]

Excerpts ...The President authorized the strike because of the risk posed to our aircraft. All coalition aircraft have returned safely.

Q Was this planned, Ari, or was this a spontaneous --

MR. FLEISCHER: The President authorized it yesterday.

Q When did he authorize it?

MR. FLEISCHER: Yesterday.

Q Did something happen to provoke this, Ari, did some incident happen to provoke this?

MR. FLEISCHER: It was the existence of radar facilities that posed a threat to our aircraft, that identified our aircraft. There is a simultaneous briefing going on at the Pentagon as we speak. The Pentagon is briefing at 2:30 p.m. and will provide additional detailed information about the strikes and about the targets.

Q For the President to have specifically approved it indicates it's more than just a routine thing, though, because rules of engagement --

MR. FLEISCHER: No, it is routine. In this case, the aircraft would be on patrol in the southern no-fly zone, and that's why it required the President's authorization. That has happened before; that is, unfortunately, routine.

***********************
2)

[link|http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/aug2001/iraq-a17.shtml|October Attacks on longrange Radar facilities]

A short extract that hits the point ...

"The intensified bombing of Iraq is thus a form of US saber-rattling, directed not only against Saddam Hussein but also at the European powers that are challenging American hegemony in the oil-rich region. Russia may be able to block US plans for more effective sanctions, China may supply high-tech gear to Baghdad, France and Germany may have well-advanced plans for economic penetration of Iraq, but the United States is seeking to serve notice that it remains the decisive military power in the Gulf."



*********************************************************************
My speculation (no hard evidence) is that US may have been destroying a similar system to the PCLS one said to have been used in Serbia.

Cheers Doug




New Techno gives us certain guarantees -
1) In the uneneding search to counter Techno-1, Techno-2 shall be deleoped, with the profits going to the usual suspects - the advanced ones already developing Techno-3 to counter Techno-2.

2) To make the pigeons safe for further extraction of funds as might have gone for schools, infrastructure repair (in US - overdue since Roosevelt died / end WW-II) etc. - Techno-n always approaches the pilot-less [thing] and we can see already, is asymptotic to merely a Nintendo controller (with Clearance). Remote control out of Tee Vee B-ploys.

3) As 1) and 2) are endless progressions and have the effect of further concentrating more wealth in fewer Controllers, the clincher is: these processes do Not require the species to grow-up. Thus

4) There can be no end to the scheme. (Except extinction, natch)


No point in betting, for all obvious reasons - perhaps the only useful lesson from War Games: the only way to win this game is not to play.

(A moderately humorous plot I think.. at least to any non-speciesist)

:-\ufffd



Ashton
(just visiting here - think 'a Disneyworld vacation')
     Lemme bounce a new theory of why US wants to invade Iraq ... - (dmarker2) - (14)
         So whacher sayin' is... - (jb4) - (7)
             Re: Seems that is it ... - (dmarker2) - (6)
                 None of this progression is unthinkable - (Ashton) - (5)
                     The grand plan from stupid fragments. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                         All the while... - (Ashton) - (3)
                             Re: When will oil run out ? - some articles - (dmarker2) - (2)
                                 According to environmentalists circa 1970 oil ran out 2001 - (boxley)
                                 Nice coverage of a main item on the list. - (Ashton)
         backtrack - (tablizer) - (5)
             No problem. - (Andrew Grygus) - (4)
                 Re: Good sources - very interesting! - an extract ... - (dmarker2) - (3)
                     "Oh what a tangled web we weave - (Ashton) - (2)
                         Pess Release on the US Bombings of Iraq in 2001 - (dmarker2) - (1)
                             Techno gives us certain guarantees - - (Ashton)

Those responsible have been sacked.
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