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New Well it is only in South Africa
not in the US (yet), and the Muppet is unnamed so far.

But the question is should we be exposing kids that young to what a STD is? Or what AIDS is?

What next, a Crack Baby Muppet?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Orion
please go to your room.
New What?
All I am saying is that kids barely understand Cooties, an imaginary bug. How are they going to understand what HIV is or how the person got infected?

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Fair enough.
They won't "understand"... most! of what they receive mere hints-of. Not say, The Social Contract and lots else implicit in being told they are part of a society. And so on.

Puppets aren't about 'education', they are about a kind of infotainment. The idea can be overdone; a good one turned into a useless one (the way we Always do: Oooh!! that was a Good Movie; let's make 12 awful sequel$ $oon.)

Not gonna debate then, "what belongs on a good infotainment list". We still live in a country in which there remain pressure groups against education about biology, gender, sex, birth control, ___.

My aim would be for tots to be introduced gradually to the sort of non-fairy tale world they actually dwell in, lest they freak when they hear whispered to them by ignorant peers: a really screwed-up version.

In brief: it's enough that they have just Some awareness that Something called 'HIV' has some nasty consequences for: anyone who imagines that ignorance will protect them. Later on.. they will acquire knowledge at levels they can manage.

Ditto re crack or any other glitch - hell: explain "Wars on___" to them! Explain that these are "our culture's way" of Not-dealing with matters by - giving them cute names and locking up a bunch of folks. This because we dare not address root causes of Anything - we want just a quick fix of the 'symptoms' (just like our medicine).

A Kid can Understand that! - only adults have trouble understanding that.


Ashton
New Sex Education
Usually we wait until they are pre-teens to educate them on Sex, STD, HIV, ETC not create a muppet to tell them when they are 3 years old.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New I'm wondering how they will do it.
If the character is active and outgoing, where's the link to HIV?

No sex and there isn't much about blood transfusions or sharing needles on the regular show.

If it was a religion, it could be illustrated with artifacts and ceremonies from that religion.

If it was a nationality, it could be illustrated with a language.

And so on.

Unless the character develops AIDS or has to stay on a drug routine, just saying "Hi! I'm HIV positive, let's play jump rope!" will NOT mean anything to the kids.

"Hi! I'm HIV positive and I might develop AIDS and die. Let's play jump rope!"

Meaningless tripe from people who are still too afraid of the stigmatism to do anything worthwhile.
New More than likely
the girl will be born HIV positive from her mother, who died, and she doesn't know what happened to her mother except that she died. Of course they won't explore this too much on the show, just mention that she has HIV. Then the other muppets start talking to her and having fun.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Bert Held her down while Earnie
says how sorry they are that she is sick :)
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New HIV's got nothing to do with sex.
Especially in this context.

Hypotheically, if there were an industrial accident that released a chemical that produced a high incidence of, say, diabetes in that country, then we would be seeing the diabetic muppet. Its about sharing understanding of one anothers viewpoints and generating empathy.

I think its a fine idea.
The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
New Nothing to do with sex?
You must have missed the report that came out within the past two or three days that pretty much said HIV was almost *entirely* about sex. Previously, they'd thought it was mostly due to needle sharing between an HIV possitive and a non-HIV positive, but this recent study seems to have debunked it - of course, that's only until the *next* study. I had several blood transfuions in 1984 and I suppose I should count myself lucky that I didn't contract HIV or Hepetitus C, as they weren't really doing anything to look for them at the time.
Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
New Incorrect statement
HIV has a *LOT* to do with sex. That might not be its only form of transportation, but your message title, when taken by itself, is rather completely off-base.

Yes, it can be spread by other means, such as intravenous needle-sharing (whether drug-related or not), or blood transfusions. Basically, any time that infected blood meets non-infected blood, there's a chance that the person with non-infected blood will become infected. However that "chance meeting" comes about, and for however long the contact lasts.
-YendorMike

What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
- Jimmy Buffett, June 20, 2002, Tinley Park
New Not in this context
Muppets generally model pre-teen children.

HIV *can* be contracted sexually - yes.

How many HIV+ pre-teen children have contracted it that way though? Study schmudy. Your studies you two are quoting are studies about adults. Go get me a study with a sample group closely matching the Sesame Street demographic and come back here and tell me its still all about sex.

Applying moral stigma to a non-sexually-transmitted-disease victim is clear and present ignorance. But apparently common.

The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
New Removing context...
Muppets generally model pre-teen children.

Agreed.

HIV *can* be contracted sexually - yes.

Also agreed.

How many HIV+ pre-teen children have contracted it that way though? Study schmudy. Your studies you two are quoting are studies about adults. Go get me a study with a sample group closely matching the Sesame Street demographic and come back here and tell me its still all about sex.

Where, oh where, did I quote any form of "study"?

Applying moral stigma to a non-sexually-transmitted-disease victim is clear and present ignorance. But apparently common.

Ignorance. Of all the people to call ignorant on the topic of AIDS, you choose me. Right. The guy who's ridden his bike (currently) over 2,800 miles in the last year and 3 months to battle the disease about which we speak. And the one who volunteers at a local AIDS charity. Uh huh. Ignorant.

I also rather clearly removed the entire concept of "context" from my reply to your message. Yes, you included it in your post, but the fact remains that your chosen title (HIV's got nothing to do with sex.) is a blatantly incorrect statement when taken out of context. And the fact also is that most people will see the title, taken out of context of your reply, before they read or see your reply.
-YendorMike

What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
- Jimmy Buffett, June 20, 2002, Tinley Park
New Sorry, it was the other response.
RE: Study - sorry - that was the sibling message that mentioned a recent study.

Ignorance was also not directed at you specifically - but rather the general objecting populace at large - sorry man.

Of course, if HIV is primarily an STD and you're riding cycles with seatage of modern design, I suspect you get safer and safer every mile. (Honest I'm not getting back on one of those things until they bring back the banana seat).

The average hunter gatherer works 20 hours a week.
The average farmer works 40 hours a week.
The average programmer works 60 hours a week.
What the hell are we thinking?
New You don't know much about the muppets, do you?
They started off trying to be controversial.

When they came out, middle class american kids were making friends with someone who lived in a garbage can? How do you think that went down in the 70's?

Well now you are the kind of person that the show wants to offend. It appears to be succeeding...

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Your forget
I was a kid in the 1970's. Oscar the Grouch was originally orange, not green. :)

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New You may have seen them...
But did you understand the context at that age?

From the start the show had the goal of pushing a [link|http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/H/htmlH/hensonjim/hensonjim.htm|social agenda]. Then you might not have realized that it was somewhat controversial. Now you do.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New ..but 'Social Agenda' has such__such____'connotations'
Y'know? I *guess* you could call...
In skits, songs, and other performances they epitomized the social skills fundamental to Sesame Street's mission--cooperation, understanding, tolerance and respect.
..a "social agenda" alright, but -

Whom? Would It Offend ?? ('Agenda' is a word now Fully-Loaded, whatever the context)

Ditto Mr. Rogers, an adult who appears to fully comprehend the sorts of things which frighten young children - as they watch the adults around them shouting and carrying on over mysterious Words..

But I guess this is just another case wherein a merely descriptive word has come to join the cacophony indicated by, say

Right to 'Life'
A Woman's Ownership of Her Body


and all the other 'issues' in the automatic war of opposites. (I do wonder though - what 'opposite' to the above agenda is in some minds.. as find these ideas also subversive ??)



Ashton
New I can support that "agenda".
In skits, songs, and other performances they epitomized the social skills fundamental to Sesame Street's mission--cooperation, understanding, tolerance and respect.
You have to remember the time frame we're talking about here.

1963 - Gov. George C. Wallace stood in the doorway at the University of Alabama in an attempt to block two black students from enrolling.

1964 - It finally becomes illegal to post "no niggers need apply" in job announcements.

1965 - It becomes illegal to use poll taxes or tests to disqualify blacks from registering and voting.

1969 - Sesame Street

1988 - Congress overrides President Regan's veto of the Civil Rights Restoration Act making it ILLEGAL for private organizations that receive government funds to discriminate based upon colour (and so forth).

For that time, NOT being a small minded bigot WAS a pretty radical change.

And an "agenda" to show that "different" is NOT "evil" was very liberal.
New Exactly
And don't forget various race riots, forced integration through bussing in Boston circa 1974, and other more minor conflicts.

Cooperation, understanding, tolerance and respect between puppets of different colors might sound utterly blase. But it wasn't so in the context of its times.

Cheers,
Ben
"... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything."
--Richard Feynman
New Yes, the times were like that
but the same hypocrisy existed: that is, I'd still think it unlikely that anyone would have overtly countered.. such an 'agenda' as was stated. There were no self-proclaimed bigots then or now.

Yet too.. It's Not Easy Being Green musta pissed-off a whole next generation of the gent-eel. (as silently)

Of course I was (mostly) in California and the experience of these other savage lands was vicarious - via sound pix of the folks with dogs and firehoses and such, and personal reports of intrepid travellers who had lived to tell of their experiences among heathens. Not all did live, of course. CA had its share of the afflicted natch - they just weren't allowed to lynch or set dogs; just spread nastiness.

But yes, I can see that in the boardrooms wherein was discussed the need not to upset anyone (especially not a Sponsor) - no muppet would ever be seen. Commercially. An MBA is about learning non-controversy, guts optional.

(Guess too, that Henson was on some hit-lists along with PBS, accordingly. Only some Commie could think of such a message.)



Kinda brings a lump to the throat.


Ashton
New What I understood
were that muppets were fakes, usually pupets with someone's hand stuck up their butt or proped up on sticks. It was fun pretending they were real monsters, etc.

What really scared me was the McDonald characters. Ronald McDonald, I had nightmares about him really being a vampire who wore clown makeup to appear on cameras. In one nightmare he came to my school, I went to meet him before anyone else did, and found him putting on the makeup and wig, before he retracted his fangs and turned his eyes to look normal. He sent a bunch of Bat-Like Golden Arches after me, and the rest of the kids in my school got turned into Vampires or Werewolfs and went chasing after me.

I am free now, to choose my own destiny.
New Those weren't nightmares.
Somehow you scoped in on a Board of Directors meeting re seeking new markets for the infrastructure, post-2000. Be very afraid (still).

Now if you never lost sight of the fact of what 'muppets' really were, while watching.. then perhaps you were doomed to a certain literal view. (Sorry - you were supposed to "suspend disbelief" for a while, as I understand it.)


Ashton
New Re: Well it is only in South Africa
They (children) will be exposed at some point regardless ..... hopefully informationally first :(

Perhaps a new superhero......... Condom :)

A remake/remix of "Ernie" in the bathtub with the new character and a changing of the words to "Rubber Ducky"???
........if it's for free...... it's for me ;)
     New HIV infected Muppet - (orion) - (27)
         Well.. it IS a pandemic - (Ashton)
         A great way to immunize kids... - (marlowe) - (25)
             Ah.. you mean like.. - (Ashton) - (24)
                 Well it is only in South Africa - (orion) - (23)
                     Orion - (Ashton) - (12)
                         What? - (orion) - (11)
                             Fair enough. - (Ashton) - (10)
                                 Sex Education - (orion) - (9)
                                     I'm wondering how they will do it. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                         More than likely - (orion)
                                         Bert Held her down while Earnie - (boxley)
                                     HIV's got nothing to do with sex. - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                                         Nothing to do with sex? - (wharris2)
                                         Incorrect statement - (Yendor) - (3)
                                             Not in this context - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                 Removing context... - (Yendor) - (1)
                                                     Sorry, it was the other response. - (tuberculosis)
                     You don't know much about the muppets, do you? - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                         Your forget - (orion) - (7)
                             You may have seen them... - (ben_tilly) - (6)
                                 ..but 'Social Agenda' has such__such____'connotations' - (Ashton) - (3)
                                     I can support that "agenda". - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                         Exactly - (ben_tilly)
                                         Yes, the times were like that - (Ashton)
                                 What I understood - (orion) - (1)
                                     Those weren't nightmares. - (Ashton)
                     Re: Well it is only in South Africa - (molbdron)

It's not a pooping bell!
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