Outraged observer from afar

Post #44,889 by dmarker2 7/9/02 10:54:43 AM Reply	Outraged observer from afar Having just heard the next latest US corporate scandal of yet more billions of dollars in lies & deceptions, I sit here wondering why so many of us hate Gates so much when no court has yet convicted him or anyone in MS for the horrific abuses perpetrated by other US corporate giants. Seems to me that those of us who despise MS so much (me among the leaders) have to ask ourselves just how misguided we might be being. Having worked for IBM in the 1970s & 1980s I learned what is was to be despised by ordinary DP (IT) people. I was there when IBM blatantly screwed Control Data Corporation (CDC), I was there when IBM announced the vapor tiger 4331 computer in the 1980 that wiped out 3 major competitors (ITEL, Magnason & Amdahl). I was there when Justice dept tried for 11 years (1971 to 1982) to get IBM for its rampant abuse of its monopoly position. At the time I did not see that IBM was at fault even though I hated our own marketing force for being, on average, complete bastards. I remember in the mid 1960s when the IBM 360 series was launched & sold before it worked & delivered to customers worldwide who suffered 2 years of agony while people like me fitted ECs (engineering changes) to make the systems work on the customers floors. So what did Gates do wrong by comparison. I just don't really know - yes he launched Win95 when it was equiv to System/360. But in time MS got it working to a level that a majority were willing to, accept (just like IBM's 360 finally was, which later became - 370 - 390 series). My issue here is that compared with the unbelieveable deception, greed an lies of today's corporate America, Billy is no longer looking quite so evil, just aggressive and as I am saying above, so was IBM & earlier so was NCR who Thomas Watson, founder of IBM, worked for & was at that time (1930s) convicted of corporate dirty tricks of the worst order (& only escaped jail because a flood hit Ohio where NCR was headquartered, and NCR under convicted CEO Patterson and with convicted Watson in the lead, saved thousands of lives). I have lost faith in the fight against Microsoft, unless Gates or Ballmer et al get convicted of crimes that are in any way similar to these other indescribale bastards who have destroyed so many retirees & other's lives by their blatant greed, lies & practices - sheesh, even Andersen's - I used to think it was Andersen Consulting as an illegitimate child who were the evil manipulative ones - not their founding parent. Sorry folks but for me Microsoft is among the lesser guilty right now and maintaing the rage against them seems somewhat missplaced. I no longer believe this forum thread has any credibility as long as just MS is singled out as an evil one. Long live corporate ventures in the great open market (_not). Doug Marker
Post #44,893 by wharris2 7/9/02 11:17:56 AM Reply	Win95 comments Win95 worked fine for me out of the box, as soon as I did a fresh install and didn't try to "upgrade" from Win 3.1. It ran the DOS games I wanted to run (at the time it was probably Doom 2, Heretic, XCom), and the Windows programs I used (Quicken, Ami Pro), although for the simple letters I was writing at the time I decided that Wordpad was fine. Now, the 4 or so years between 3.1 and the actual release of Win95 - the features that were going to be in it (which didn't find their way into the final release), the hype, the press frenzy - I'm sure that's very reminiscent of the typical IBM monopolistic practises - sure, that was bad. But it did work. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #44,894 by bepatient 7/9/02 11:23:08 AM Reply	Hmmm.. ...its ok to keep hating them...remember...they were also convicted of a rather serious crime...and have thus far escaped any penalty. Alot of these other "scandals" don't even have convictions yet. And...considering the importance of this industry and the speed of change and advancement...it is quite possible that MSFT has effectively killed some extremely important tech...or postponed its arrival to well beyond where it should have been introduced. I remember BG stating in front of Congress that Windows would lose its dominance as soon as someone else produced a voice-enabled OS...and he said this 3 years AFTER Warp 4 was released. There is plenty to not like about Bill. % wealth donated to charity is pretty low. His company abuses charities that try and give people computers for which MS has already been paid a license fee. Theres lots there to not like. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #44,901 by marlowe 7/9/02 12:08:49 PM Reply	Everyone else is doing it, so it's not so bad? That's an argument for children. Or crooks. If you have't got enough outrage to go around, then you need to increase your capacity for outrage. Rationing is not an option. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Everything's a mystery until you figure out how it works. If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
Post #44,908 by kmself 7/9/02 12:58:19 PM Reply	Re: Outraged observer from afar Seems to me that those of us who despise MS so much (me among the leaders) have to ask ourselves just how misguided we might be being. Not at all. -- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] [link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|[link\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/\|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand? [link\|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/\|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever. Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead. [link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|[link\|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html\|http://www.eff.org/...a_alert.html]]
Post #44,922 by drewk 7/9/02 1:53:54 PM Reply	Death from a thousand cuts We like to get all outraged whenever a few dozen people die in a plane crash. But we have tens of thousands die every year in car crashes. We are shocked by immediacy and big events even when rationally we know that the long, slow accumulation always wins on sheer numbers. Now look at Microsoft vs. WorldCom. How much did WorldCom supposedly mis-state? Under $4-billion. And that was just reporting it as capital expenses rather than operating expenses to smooth the depreciation. The stock market throws a fit and WorldCom is on the verge of bankruptcy. Microsoft turns what, about $20-billion a year? How much of that is due to abuse of their monopoly? If it's even 20% that's more than WorldCom's offence, and they're doing it every year. Besides which, every dollar lost to Microsoft's monopoly is a dollar not spent on real captial improvements, or on one of their competitors who therefore goes out of business. I'm not necessarily saying Microsoft is definitely the worst of the current crop of scandals, but for longevity and fraud I think they're definitely in the running. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #44,949 by Andrew Grygus 7/9/02 4:22:42 PM Reply	Simple and straight forward These corporate crooks ripped off "investors" (many of whom are just as guilty as they). Those people were not forced to invest in these companies, they chose to because they thought they would get an unnaturally high return. Investment in "emerging growth companies" is always risky, and growth way outside the norms is always illusion. Now they're pissed off that they didn't see the lies they were being fed. Microsoft hurts us directly- intending to deprive us of all choice, all options and any software that works better - and charging us plenty for the privelage. Microsoft's influence is over how we live our daily lives, and how (and what) information and entertainment will be delivered to us, and how much we will pay for it. Microsoft seeks to control where we work, what tools we use in our work, and how much we are paid. Microsoft has been tried and convicted of serious offenses, and the conviction upheld on appeal. The fact is, there could be a dozen more trials and convictions on a dozen more subjects if anyone had the will and resources to bring charges. Microsoft's specialty is seeing to it it's victims don't have that kind of resources left. Microsoft is a much more serious annoyance than mere thieves. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #44,996 by dmarker2 7/10/02 2:17:16 AM 7/10/02 2:19:33 AM Reply	Re: Simple and straight forward These corporate crooks ripped off "investors" (many of whom are just as guilty as they). That last comment is opinion, it tends to demean the 1000s of retirees & institutional investment orgs managing retiree's funds, who were not expecting to be barefacedly deceived. Whatever we say about MS it can be little more than what many said about Standard Oil, NCR & IBM in earlier generations - 'blatant exploitation of a monopoly position'. No one has proven that MS has lied on their balance sheets the way Enron et al have done. If anyone argues that they have then why does no one prosecute. If they have lied & no one will prosecute - I get back to just how bankrupt big business must be. So why won't anyone start a thread called Corporate Fraud (I believe no one really cares all that much - it will blow over). But Billy the Nerd makes a real taget we can direct all our frustrations at - I know I resent just how much profit he thinks MS is entitled to make. >>>"Microsoft hurts us directly- intending to deprive us of all choice, all options and any software that works better - and charging us plenty for the privelage" So how do they differ from any of the other convicted monopolies mentioned ? >>>"Microsoft is a much more serious annoyance than mere thieves." I think what Enron has done to Business, to the market, to confidence and to those who lost much of their assets, is far worse than what MS is being accused of here. The most serious accusation we can level at WG is his outright aggressive success - we can debate the cost of it but proving the value propositions in that area gets difficult as much of it is subjective. I really doubt that anyone could prove MS did any worse than IBM at its worst. IBM was really only cured of its culture of aggression when the CEO was hired from outside. The culture was the problem & MS is the same. Untill B7 B get replaced little will change at MS unless someone can prove they have indulged in blatant corporate fraud. Anyway, there is nothing I have said that makes MS any better than they are or were, just that IMHO, these blatant corporate deceptions & greed are totally inexcusable & look who we have to step up on the podium of odium to blather about those corporate misdeeds, G-W-Bush. Using the words of one roman emperor - my advice to Bush is 'Klitus, fall on your sword'. Doug Marker Edited by dmarker2 July 10, 2002, 02:19:33 AM EDT Expand All History
Post #45,016 by drewk 7/10/02 9:16:42 AM Reply	Perception vs. reality I'll focus on one word: I think what Enron has done to Business, to the market, to confidence* and to those who lost much of their assets, is far worse than what MS is being accused of here.* (My emphasis) The modern stock market is a combination Ponzi/pyramid scheme/casino where the whole thing is rigged. It all works on confidence. As I said here recently, the only real asset of a large corporation is confidence in their brand. As long as they maintain that they keep making money[1]; as soon as they lose it they are finished. The only reason Microsoft still has the confidence of the market is their monopoly position. It is literally a case of people believing there is no alternative: "Of course they're going to keep making money. Who else is anyone going to buy from?" If a company without Microsoft's monopoly faced the same legal problems, their stock would have tanked by now, and Gates and Ballmer would probably be testifying in Congress. [1] Or at least the corporate officers do. As we have all seen recently, you can claim profits you didn't make to inflate your stock price, knowing your compensation is tied more to stock price than dividend. === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #45,017 by Andrew Grygus 7/10/02 9:25:01 AM Reply	Retiree funds . . . . have no business investing in high risk "high growth" stocks. If they do, then someone is "guilty" and should be held liable. Unfortunately, "investment professionals" have built walls between themselves and retribution, which should be torn down. It'll take a few disasters to do that, and to engender any sense of due diligance after so long a winning streak. Whether Microsoft is worse than other monopolies or not is irrelevant to this discussion, which was about Enron, WorldCom and the like - clear cases of theft by fraud (creative accounting). These frauds will result in reforms, which will work for a little while, until the crooks master the new game. Microsoft, on the other hand, wants to control every aspect of my life and work. They want a cut on every financial transaction and want to control what I can access on the Internet and how I access it, what news and what entertainment is made available to the public through other media. They fully intend to control what technologies are avaialable and from whom they are available. Microsoft has clearly stated, by the revenue growth projections they have released, that they fully intent to monopolize the market for accounting and business management software except in the largest companies (that comes later). Since their stated intent is to move this monopoly to .NET services, they will be in a position to hold the continued existance of any business hostage. Bill Gates has stated he intends to own the digital rights to every work of art in the world. He has already bought the largest photo archive in existance, and ended access to most of it. Only the parts he says are accessable can be seen by the public or by publishers. He owns the rights to digital presentation of all the works in the National Museum, among many others. Since nearly all future publication will be by digital means, Bill Gates will control all publication. This is not the sum total, but only a few examples of what is going on. The desire to control every aspect of my life (and yours) is far more serious than a few crooks stealing money, even on a grand scale. Stolen money returns to the economy one way or another. If not, then it was an illusion anyway and not much was actually stolen. Freedom never returns without a long and generally bloody struggle resulting in many deaths and destroyed lives. If money is more important to you than freedom, then yes, Enron is (to you) worse than Microsoft. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #45,086 by ben_tilly 7/10/02 7:14:51 PM Reply	Strong disagreement on your leading point Retiree funds have no business investing in high risk "high growth" stocks. If they do, then someone is "guilty" and should be held liable. Bull. A balanced portfolio of risky investments (note: investments, not gambles) in the long-run (20 years +) is virtually guaranteed to massively outperform any other kind of investment. Given that that is the kind of time period that retirement funds are aimed at, there is every reason to so invest retirement money, and people should have every right to insist that their retirement funds be so invested. Note that putting it all into your company is hardly "balanced", but that is another story. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #45,530 by wharris2 7/14/02 6:56:39 AM Reply	Balanced depending on age If I were 55+, I'd want most of my retiree fund to be in conservative funds. If I were 20, I'd wouldn't mind a good percentage of relatively high risk stuff. In the middle, I'm thinking of cutting down on "growth" stocks and going more into milder stocks with far fewer "risky" stuff. Famous last RPG quotes: "I'll just shoot this fireball down the dungeon passageway..."
Post #45,548 by ben_tilly 7/14/02 11:55:32 AM Reply	Exactly right Your investment profile and projected needs should balance. Stocks are a long-term investment, a short-term gamble. Decide your term before investing. Cheers, Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #45,049 by wharris2 7/10/02 2:19:49 PM Reply	Maybe, maybe not Although it hasn't gone to the Justice Department, and although the SEC has (I hope) at least given it a once-over (though that's not entirely clear), Microsoft and other high-tech companies' stock option schemes can be argued as allowing them to misstate financial information (eg, liability for said options) pretty badly. I seem to remember the SEC telling Microsoft to quit cooking their books to even out revenues between financial quarters. Microsoft in effect said "We'd never do that, but if we did we won't do it again." That's only two examples of bookkeeping irregularities, but the book-cooking (or as I believe User Friendly put it, Martha Steward's Guide to Book Sauteeing) is a sign that they certainly aren't very interested in being open and honest about their revenues, assets, and liabilities. And where there are a couple of irregularities, there could certainly be more if you start digging deep enough. And once you start digging, you never really know what you'll find. Informix, once the leader in relational databases but long ago surpassed by Oracle, stayed alive for quite some time but was eventually put to rest by the discovery of a series of increasingly bad financial irregularities (misstating inventory, booking sales when things hadn't actually been sold, stuff like that - I forget exactly all of what they did, but it was news at the time) which certainly appear to have been designed to make their finances look better. Not nearly as bad as the phoney holding/trading companies Enron set up, but bad enough... hmmmm, beginning to sound a little like manipulation similar to Microsoft.
Post #45,055 by Andrew Grygus 7/10/02 3:18:45 PM Reply	Book Roasting That was "The Arthur Andersen Accounting Cookbood with introduction by Martha Stewart". Yes, Microsoft has been caught by the SEC in a little cooking - but just a "cooky jar reserve", which is a minor offense. Of course, Microsoft is the definitive abuser of the stock option ploy, so their books are not just cooked, they're "Blackened Books with Cajun sauce". Alas, this is currently neither illegal nor against GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Practices (What Companies Have Successfully Gotten Away With)). Every couple of years, the keepers of accounting standards try to fix the stock options problem, and every time the entire high tech industry goes to Congress and whines, "These mean accountants are going to hurt us!". Suitable pressure is applied and nothing gets done. You can be quite sure that any company to which the term "High Tech" can be applied has books that are entirely misleading and have at best a tenuous relationship to fiscal reality. Cisco, by the way, is another prominente offender. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #45,572 by dmarker2 7/14/02 6:54:42 PM Reply	Re: Interesting - that point discussed on Aust TV last night Head of Chartered Accountants in Australia said Bush had maybe 2 good opportunities to get things right & the one big thing he could have fixed was the issue of expensing stock options. His opinion is that Bush failed to do anything that matters. This particular issue reinforces my point that even with a known & internationally recognised flaw such as the stock options expensing, Govt & business in US won't take the obvious action to fix the problem so companies such as MS are doing what is not good but doing it legally. The system is flawed. Cheers Doug
Post #45,583 by static 7/14/02 11:08:34 PM Reply	Of course the system is flawed. Why do I think so? Because the people making the most money have the means to keep the system fixed in their favour, i.e. money! Hard to fix it, really... Wade. "Ah. One of the difficult questions."
Post #44,957 by Ashton 7/9/02 6:36:05 PM Reply	M$ has been the Model for the growth in rapacity. IBM's crimes were in another generation.. for most in techno today. Undoubtedly there are ugly parallels but.. IBM did not train an entire generation of greedy, minimally-educated folks - who could only make it in basketweaving or bus-ad courses - to follow Billy's perfect example. The combo of Billy n'Bally are ICONS. No one at IBM ever was, unless you want to imagine that Watson was beloved (except.. by that generation's bus-ad wannabes too). He had 0 Charisma. Also, there was zippo social awareness when Watson did his dirty deeds. Billy only Markets Others' ideas: stolen outright, retained after a 'partner' is run into bankruptcy via orchestrated premeditated lies [Ed Curry] - or when those ploys have failed: bought. Often that which was bought was buried because it was too Good ergo, a threat to hegemony. And all with nondisclosure agreements at every step. So we will never know the depth and breadth, except by inference. Nope.. B n'B are the ICONS. IBM never created emulators throughout all of business. Bn'B created a New Thing: Bizness. Now it is everywhere, like a virus, superseding the remaining small more-nearly ethical holdovers. That is a social devolution, and there is no reversal of the mindset anywhere in sight. Ashton
Post #44,966 by ben_tilly 7/9/02 7:57:13 PM Reply	Speaking of Ed Curry There is someone I respect who I believe died because he got in the way of Microsoft corporate policy. Certainly the lengths that they went to to discredit him and guarantee that he wouldn't work because he wouldn't lie for them would be shocking from anyone else. For me that alone would stand out, even if Microsoft hadn't done everything else it has done. Ben "... I couldn't see how anyone could be educated by this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, teach others to pass exams, but nobody knows anything." --Richard Feynman
Post #44,981 by folkert 7/9/02 11:06:53 PM Reply	Speaking of Ed Curry...again If you recall, Most if not ALL of my e-mails have an entry for Ed Curry. As do all of these posts. I shall never...NEVER forgive or forget what Microsoft did to that HONEST man and his family. `greg, curley95@attbi.com -- REMEMBER ED CURRY!!!`
Post #45,924 by mmoffitt 7/17/02 8:07:52 PM Reply	I will take some flame. Anyone who has read any of my posts in the last 6 years or so will know that I am by no means a Microsoftie. However, there are two products that Microsoft has made that I believe are decent products. Actually, one good one and one decent one. The good one is Microsoft Sql Server (versions 7.0 and higher). It is a good workgroup database server. It's programmer friendly and is decently stable. I've used the MSDE (free, yeah, can you believe it?) engine on several projects and find it a decent engine for small databases. Which, as I pointed out to the head of support for Sql Server at Microsoft, only goes to prove the old adage that "even a blind hog can find the acorn once in a while." And I maintain that Visual Basic is a good product. Yes, it sucks if you try to use "automation" with any of the rest of the shit that Microsoft makes, but if you stick to doing front-ends to Microsoft databases, it is a decent tool. I'd argue that you take two developers of equal skill in their languages, the VB guy will beat to market anyone developing in any other language. Are VB apps stable? Do pigs fly? But, if you know the product, its limitations and its "features", you can make stable apps with it, and faster than anyone else. LET THE BEATINGS BEGIN :-) Mikem
Post #45,979 by boxley 7/18/02 11:56:32 AM Reply	Oh yea? put a vb guy and a PICK guy next to each other and say develop an accounting module where the same report run twice in a row gives you the same figure and the VB guy will be working until the year 2081. thanks, Bill ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #46,118 by mmoffitt 7/19/02 4:43:44 PM Reply	Yeah. So, how do you get a graphical UI in PICK?
Post #46,141 by boxley 7/19/02 6:50:40 PM Reply	same way anyone else does X:Y co-ordinates ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #46,447 by mmoffitt 7/22/02 8:45:05 PM Reply	80x25 char based? :-) I don't really know anything about PICK. I worked at a place for about 4 years that was running a PICK emulator (uniVerse?) on HP-UX. It was an HMO that did their claims processing on it and the app was written in PICK BASIC (at least that's what I thought it was called). I worked on the DSS stuff (which were extracts of the PICK files into Sql Server) so I didn't play much with the emulator too much. Didn't really seem that bad, I occasionally had to do some command line scripting and I did set up a few tables/scripts, even some applets, but was by no means an expert. Years ago when Windows 3.10 came out and I wrote my first database application with the Win16 SDK I thought, this GUI crap will never catch on for head-down data entry. Shows how much foresight I had, doesn't it?
Post #46,525 by boxley 7/23/02 1:34:38 PM Reply	1024X768 :) Just because it is basic doesnt mean they havnt got any rad tools for the front end. Me I have never understood why an AP system needs gui's anyway. thanx, bill ."Once, in the wilds of Afghanistan, I had to subsist on food and water for several weeks." W.C. Fields
Post #45,990 by CRConrad 7/18/02 3:24:27 PM Reply	Hello, Toast. Mike misguidedly Moffitts: And I maintain that Visual Basic is a good product. Yes, it sucks if you try to use "automation" with any of the rest of the shit that Microsoft makes, but if you stick to doing front-ends to Microsoft databases, it is a decent tool. I'd argue that you take two developers of equal skill in their languages, the VB guy will beat to market anyone developing in any other language. Are VB apps stable? Do pigs fly? But, if you know the product, its limitations and its "features", you can make stable apps with it, and faster than anyone else. You ought to have known to expect this, Mike... If nothing else, then from knowing me. One word: [link\|http://www.borland.com/delphi/\|Delphi]. Burns VB (and thus, you) to a crispy cinder. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #46,071 by jb4 7/19/02 9:57:37 AM Reply	Amen, brother... Delphi (and its evil Linux twin, whose name I can't remember)...Good! VisualBullshit...Well, the name says it all! jb4 "I remember Harry S. Truman's sign on his desk. 'The buck stops here.' Strange how those words, while still true, mean something completely different today." -- Brandioch
Post #46,097 by CRConrad 7/19/02 3:08:24 PM Reply	"Kylix". Here's a linky-thingy: [link\|http://www.borland.com/kylix/\|HTH!] :-) Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #46,656 by CRConrad 7/24/02 2:02:43 AM Reply	Hey all, retry that link - Kylix 3 is out! (OP and C++!) That's [link\|http://www.borland.com/kylix/\|[link\|http://www.borland.com/kylix/\|http://www.borland.com/kylix/]]. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #46,668 by orion 7/24/02 6:13:55 AM Reply	I'll pass for now I went to download Kylix 2.0 before, kept getting calls from Borland asking me if I needed licensing plans and if I had any plans to buy the other copy. I told them I had problems getting my Linux system up and running, would they assist, and they never called me back again. All I wanted to do was download the free version and try it out, not get pestered by Borland telemarketer salespeople. *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #46,670 by orion 7/24/02 6:24:10 AM Reply	Double hmmmm [link\|http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_kylix.html\|[link\|http://www.borland.com/products/downloads/download_kylix.html\|http://www.borland....d_kylix.html]] The download page only allows the download of Kylix Open Edition version 2 for Linux. What happened to 3, or is it not available for download yet? *I am free now, to choose my own destiny.*
Post #46,689 by CRConrad 7/24/02 9:28:07 AM Reply	Dunno, but at a guess, the same thing as with v. 2: They do that later, when they get around to it. Yeah, it sucks (at least a little bit), but I guess ya hafta understand them: The "Open" version is a bonus, a freebie that they don't make any money from -- they gotta concentrate on getting the for-pay versions out the door first. Then again, when I checked out their page (about an hour before finally succeeding in posting this), they didn't have the for-pay versions in their "Online Shop" either; it was just K2 Pro and Enterprise as far as the eye could see. (Did you check, maybe they have those up now, at least?) And their Finnish importer's pages don't seem to know about K3 at all, as of right now. So, alas, I guess it's "Patience, Grasshopper!" for a while yet.. :-( Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #46,718 by jb4 7/24/02 12:05:18 PM Reply	Hoo--fscking--RAAAAYY!!!! AwRIIIGHT! Somebody get it! Now, will Delphi 7 contain C++ Builder as well? (I Hope...I Hope...I Hope...) jb4 "I remember Harry S. Truman's sign on his desk. 'The buck stops here.' Strange how those words, while still true, mean something completely different today." -- Brandioch
Post #46,120 by mmoffitt 7/19/02 4:50:32 PM Reply	I bought Kylix. Haven't played with it much. You might have a point, but that is among the messiest IDE's I've ever looked at. And no, I don't like VB's either, but it seems a lot less cluttered than Delphi/Kylix. And just to show that I haven't completely lost my mind, not knowing anything about Delphi, I am certain that it is a better tool for serial application development (RS-232). VB has always sucked at that, and it still does.
Post #46,142 by CRConrad 7/19/02 6:50:42 PM 7/19/02 6:57:50 PM Reply	"De gustibus non est disputandum" Personally, I like the Delphi IDE fine... You can customize it quite a lot, I hope you noticed? No, the versions released so far don't have a single "frame" (or "MDI") application-wide main window; but at least on Linux you could kind'a simulate that effect by giving it its own virtual desktop, couldn't you? I haven't a clue about "RS232", except that 'serial' sounds like what is also known (from DOS) as "COM ports"... which, it seems, all belongs under the "[link\|http://www.torry.net/modems.htm\|Modems]" category at [link\|http://www.torry.net/\|Torry's]. (Which is to say, it sure seems possible; what Borland doesn't deliver in the package, others do.) [Added on edit]: Silly me, quoting you the VCL (Win32) components... What you want is on the "[link\|http://www.torry.net/comp_klx_comms.htm\|Kylix Communications Components]" page, of course! There's a lot less stuff there than on the Win32 page, but Lukas Gebauer's "SynaSer Serial Port Library" looks like it could be exactly what you need...? Anyway, it's "FWS" (Torry-speak for "FreeWare with Source"), so you can check it out at pretty much no risk or cost at all. Christian R. Conrad Microsoft is a true reflection of Bill Gates' personality - the sleaziest, most unethical, ugliest little rat's ass the world has seen unto this time. -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=42971\|Andrew Grygus] Edited by CRConrad July 19, 2002, 06:57:50 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #46,445 by mmoffitt 7/22/02 8:39:12 PM Reply	Thanks for the links. It'll be this week-end before I can really check into it, but check into I will. Thanks again, Mikem
Post #46,840 by jake123 7/25/02 12:42:43 PM Reply	Re: Hello, Toast. Another one that will crush the VB developer is rexx. It's a much cleaner language than VB in both its procedural and OO forms. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link\|http://consultron.ca \|[link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] ] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #46,964 by CRConrad 7/26/02 2:07:27 AM Reply	Yeah, maybe... But does rexx have a zero-effort GUI builder?
Post #47,003 by imric 7/26/02 8:30:44 AM Reply	It used to, anyway Well, low effort, anyway. There was VX-Rexx and VisPro Rexx... I think CA had a visual Rexx product that could create cross-platform programs (Windows/OS2) as well, but maybe I'm confusing them with Watcom. (Gah - I even had a copy of this product. Brainlock) It's been a long time since I've even thought of visual Rexx.. I think the last time I used Rexx at all was for parsing strings on the AS/400... Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #47,047 by Another Scott 7/26/02 12:00:04 PM Reply	GpfRexx too. Rather unfortunate name, that. :-)
Post #47,542 by jake123 7/30/02 10:38:20 PM Reply	Efforts are underfoot to get Sybase to open source vx-rexx So far they seem receptive. Time will tell if it will come about though. I have VisPro... it's quite zero effort. It was a really nice product. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link\|http://consultron.ca \|[link\|http://consultron.ca\|http://consultron.ca] ] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link\|news://news.consultron.ca\|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------

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