There's a serious misconception in that statement.

Post #423,131 by Andrew Grygus 3/30/18 11:13:23 AM 3/30/18 11:13:23 AM Reply	There's a serious misconception in that statement. Calling Paganism an organized religion is totally absurd. About 70% of Pagans are sole practitioners - and there are no standards. For example: there are atheists who consider themselves Pagans, Pagan agnostics and Serial Monotheists. There are even Pagan's who's god is Jesus, for Chrissake. There are devotees to specific gods or goddesses, there are animists for whom everything has a form of consciousness and is an aspect of God, and everything in between. Paganism is a way of giving meaning and consistency to personal life - with emphasis on the "personal".
Post #423,135 by mmoffitt 3/30/18 1:06:04 PM 3/30/18 1:06:33 PM Reply	I said "on their way to Hof". bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again. Edited by mmoffitt March 30, 2018, 01:06:33 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,139 by Andrew Grygus 3/30/18 8:05:23 PM 3/30/18 8:05:23 PM Reply	Whatever the hell "Hof" is.
Post #423,159 by mmoffitt 4/2/18 8:18:53 AM 4/2/18 8:18:53 AM Reply	The Heathen Hof. I thought that was a thing with Pagans. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,161 by Andrew Grygus 4/2/18 11:19:21 AM 4/2/18 11:19:21 AM Reply	OK, that's specific to Heathenism . . . . . which is Germanic. The Germans prefer "Heathenism" to "Pagan" because it is Germanic, while Pagan is Latin. Heathenism is not prominent in North America because it's too easy to get it tangled up with Odinism, popular among brutal white supremacists in our prisons. Heathenism itself is not a problem, and very family oriented, but in Germany it is much used as a religious cover by Neo-Nazis. I know of no other Pagan group that has this sort of problem. Satanism, of course, is not Pagan, it's a reversal offshoot of Christianity and Judaism, but even most Satanists are harmless.
Post #423,162 by mmoffitt 4/2/18 12:43:33 PM 4/2/18 12:43:33 PM Reply	I don't think any of it is harmless. It's tribal. One's own spirituality as practiced by Taoists is an entirely different matter. Particularly if they adhere to Lao Tzu's words, "Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know." bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,164 by Ashton 4/2/18 2:55:41 PM 4/2/18 2:55:41 PM Reply	Just so. Even the Xians have to contend with--mainly by ignoring it--"not to wear your religion on your sleeve" ... as with every 'evangelist' Evah. Taoists (and not just those) recognize that any "work-on-Yourself" cannot be delegated to a prepackaged-Ap to download to the monkey-brain, that which chatters incessantly when you are in waking-sleep ..and like that. IMO this idea alone explains how it is simply true that organized religion has been the major force abetting every rush-to-war, from the beginning. The fact that some ~40% of Muricans (~25% Muricans claim 'Evangelistic' status last I heard) are all high on Corporate religions ... makes any ending of the premeditated chaos of Drumpfism likely to become more savage than the hideous people-killer that was the 'Civil war. It seems. Many yahoos are forever Itching to make use of their million-rounds stash, at the drop of a red Drumpf-beanie. Fortunately though, I have heard a few Evangels (self-described) preaching sanity! even citing a list of Drumpf-idiocies as would appear first on our 'own lists' ..and sound to be aware of the conflagration to come (should ALL the adults depart) the Romper Room of the latest assemblage in the White('s Only House du this very jour :-{ Me Hates the infinite liquidations necessary to Depart and for many of us to depend upon poor-One Man-Mueller to deliver us all from this ignorant easily manipulated tribe of savages? ... is to bet heavily that (not a one of the Cabal will ackshully borrow some Putin toxin? to deal with his presence.) And. like. That. Tally Ho
Post #423,166 by Andrew Grygus 4/2/18 11:28:46 PM 4/2/18 11:28:46 PM Reply	Tribalism? Not at all. Paganism is as close to a personal spirituality as you will find anywhere. As I pointed out, about 70% of Pagans are "sole practitioners". There are atheist Pagans, agnostic Pagans, and anything else you can think of, even monotheistic Pagans - more accurately henotheistic, as they don't deny the existence of other gods. Organizations tend to have no central control over the actual beliefs of their members - though Traditional British Wicca tries, and has thus been rejected by the majority of Wiccans. Incidentally, their "Traditional" was mostly made up from whole cloth and imagination in the 1950s. There are "tribal" groups attempting to use Paganism as part of national identity, as in Lithuania, but that is proving nearly impossible in the modern world. Ethnic purity is becoming impossible, even over a relatively short term due to extreme mobility and the commonality of "mixed marriages". And, if Lao Tzu's words are correct, then why did he speak? Apparently he is one who did not know, and should be disregarded. I'm sure the Taoists have some sort of weasel wording to get around that. Of course, being a Communist, your doctrine is uniformity and central control. Good luck with that.
Post #423,168 by mmoffitt 4/3/18 8:43:07 AM 4/3/18 8:43:07 AM Reply	Communists have no use for religion. Your question about how it is that Lao Tzu wrote "the book of ten thousand characters" in light of Chapter 56 has been debated since almost its writing. Everyone's entitled to think what they may. For me, with my background in mathematics, I view that statement as akin to incompleteness. In practice, all scientists (let alone mathematicians) treat our system of mathematics as though it were incomplete; for it being inconsistent would not be a very good situation for us and thanks to Kurt we know it must be one or the other. So we choose to believe it is incomplete. That is, that there are some mathematical truths that cannot be proven. Extend that objective truth only very slightly further and you get "there are some truths that cannot be spoken." bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,169 by Andrew Grygus 4/3/18 11:34:32 AM 4/3/18 11:34:32 AM Reply	Communism is a religion It is a belief structure adhered to without proof.
Post #423,170 by mmoffitt 4/3/18 11:38:44 AM 4/3/18 11:38:44 AM Reply	Nonsense. It was/is a movement. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,173 by Andrew Grygus 4/3/18 12:42:27 PM 4/3/18 12:42:27 PM Reply	Sure, just like Christianity, Islam and other movements. The fact that you, within your religion, define it as "not a religion" makes no difference to the outside world.
Post #423,174 by mmoffitt 4/3/18 1:32:34 PM 4/3/18 1:32:34 PM Reply	The fact that you, as a capitalist, have anything to say about it is immaterial. ;0) Plus, we don't have deities. ;0) bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,184 by Andrew Grygus 4/3/18 11:29:32 PM 4/3/18 11:29:32 PM Reply	Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. See Witches & Pagans issue 35 for articles explaining their Pagan practices by an atheist Pagan and an agnostic Pagan, and another who clearly states that her god is Science. Those of us who do work with deities are very up front that these deities are composed by us, in response to human needs. That doesn't mean they are powerless, because they are composed of powerful natural and social forces. Their power increases with the number of people who subscribe to the name and definition. Same with the "three revealed religions". For each, their God is of their own creation - but, unlike we Pagans, they won't admit it. Besides, you Communists have pretty much deified Marx and Lenin, now haven't you? And, you have stuff that is just as "unrealistic" as we do, perhaps more so. "To each according to his needs, and from each according to his abilities". Humans are good at maximizing situations to their own advantage - except a few (usually dead ones) who are called martyrs. This statement, if followed, quickly degrades into a society with a great number of needs and very little abilities.
Post #423,185 by mmoffitt 4/4/18 8:02:43 AM 4/4/18 8:02:43 AM Reply	We didn't "compose" Lenin, Marx, Trotsky, Bukharin, Che, Fidel or anyone else. Most Communists have read their works, but unlike your deities, we didn't invent the authors from whole cloth! You're conflating the imaginary (including the "force" that runs through and connects all of nature or whatever) with actual historical human beings. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,186 by Andrew Grygus 4/4/18 12:57:08 PM 4/4/18 12:57:08 PM Reply	Which means you can't adjust them . . . . . to keep up with the times. You're stuck back in 1916 - no wonder Communism isn't doing very well these days.
Post #423,187 by mmoffitt 4/4/18 2:22:06 PM 4/4/18 2:22:06 PM Reply	The point is they were around. Which means they weren't (and aren't) imaginary. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,188 by malraux 4/4/18 3:13:21 PM 4/4/18 3:13:21 PM Reply	Pretty sure there's been some historical enhancement. Heroes are always partly imaginary at this remove. Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #423,193 by mmoffitt 4/5/18 9:03:42 AM 4/5/18 9:03:42 AM Reply	Most of that enhancement has been flushed out at this point. No serious student of the Bolshevik Revolution, for instance, would contend today that the Romanovs were murdered without Lenin's knowledge or consent (as was once claimed in the Soviet Union). And Khrushchev's denouncement of Stalin effectively (but not entirely - just as with Trump, there are some that will never see) ended his cult of personality. There are many other myths that have arisen about the early leaders of the Communist movement (and not just Russians, Mao in China, Ho Chi Minh in Viet Nam, Fidel in Cuba, etc.). But I submit that most of those "enhancements" have been categorically refuted at this stage. Not by the useful idiots, perhaps, but by the intelligentsia and professional revolutionaries. ;0) bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,196 by malraux 4/5/18 2:19:31 PM 4/5/18 2:19:31 PM Reply	The useful idiots are the ones who keep religions going... Regards, -scott Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.
Post #423,203 by Ashton 4/5/18 8:49:45 PM 4/5/18 9:51:38 PM Reply	When someone has promised you a 'Certainty' of (..never say "die") I fear that Mr. Boole's (..nor even Mr. Socrates'..) boffo logical, intellectual methods towards "logical argumentation", that which got us to --> the Moon (and Vietnam, Iraq, Oxycontin, Facebook-purchase-by Russkies etc. ... but I digress) can never compete with so ingrained an idea as "Certainty" cha. cha. ch-cha. (Especially with Paul Joseph Göbbels II just now prepping for several new Patriotic Wars) for Whatever, such that: maybe lots of folks are yearning even more for that coming [harps replace guitars] way Out of this chicken outfit. We be so comic (when not in full-Vicious mode.) Edited by Ashton April 5, 2018, 09:51:38 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,207 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 2:23:03 AM 4/6/18 2:23:03 AM Reply	Neither are the concepts we call "deities" imaginary. They aren't imagined out of whole cloth - they are composed from real natural and social forces, and these assemblages are given names to facilitate understanding and discussion of the combined nature and interactions of these forces. This is better than the obsolete and unworkable social theories of your deities (listed by you above) which forever hold you back. "Intelligentsia and professional revolutionaries" indeed - polite synonyms for "losers". But - there is hope, even for a Godless Communist. Even you can achieve a more rewarding personal spiritual life. There is a well regarded book available from Lulu titled Godless Paganism: Voices of Non-Theistic Pagans - it might help. See, you don't really have to give up the godless part.
Post #423,208 by mmoffitt 4/6/18 10:08:45 AM 4/6/18 10:08:45 AM Reply	I don't now and never will believe in spirits. Except, of course, Glenfiddich. When I encounter something I don't understand in Nature, I strive to understand it by studying science. I've no need for magical beasts or spirits. But thank you anyway and I sincerely mean that. I'm sure your expressed hope that I find "a more rewarding personal spiritual life" was a genuine expression of hope that I would find life more satisfying. I'm reminded of a very close friend of mine who always took great exception to hearing "I'll pray for you" from a Christian. I tried and failed many times to convince him that he should let that slide. I quite understood why he was offended as "someone of faith" saying that to him was judging him very harshly. It is perhaps the ultimate slight for someone to say, "I'll pray for you" after you've informed them you are an atheist. But it harms no one and makes the person saying it feel better about themselves. He never accepted my position on that. But, I'm not offended in the least by your assertion that my life is lacking as compared to yours. Still, I won't be picking up any books about spirits, unless they concern single malts. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,211 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 11:57:43 AM 4/6/18 11:57:43 AM Reply	Ah, but we Pagans are just as much into single malts . . . . . though my favorite "paint stripper" (Peter W's description) is Laphroaig. Also caviar. California is now a leading producer of high quality caviar, as Russia fades from that scene. But don't you Communists have to avoid things like caviar because they are "bourgeois"? Of course, here in Los Angeles we have a late night coffee shop named "Bourgeois Pig" - just right for us.
Post #423,215 by mmoffitt 4/6/18 1:17:01 PM 4/6/18 1:17:01 PM Reply	I had caviar when I was a kid. I didn't like it. Amd yes, eating it is a display of bourgeois decadence. :0) bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,219 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 1:46:27 PM 4/6/18 1:46:27 PM Reply	Ah, but speaking of Bourgeois Decadence . . . . . aren't you Communists supposed to be drinking cheap vodka from a proletarian factory to give you courage to face defeat on the barricades? Doesn't this expensive, Single Malt, carefully produced by capitalist entrepreneurs, qualify as Bourgeois Decadence? Methinks your Communist idealism wavers a bit, perhaps quite a bit. And, childhood tasting experiences are completely invalid for adults, as taste changes quite radically. In some regions, coming to like bitter melon is considered evidence of entering into adulthood, as children can't stand it.
Post #423,222 by mmoffitt 4/6/18 2:05:50 PM 4/6/18 2:05:50 PM Reply	Have you been to Scotland? Decadent it ain't. ;0) Although I did get a still unopened jug of something called "Toffee Vodka" in Moffat. I haven't worked up the courage to actually try it yet. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #423,226 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 7:11:43 PM 4/6/18 7:11:43 PM Reply	Well, there are different kinds of decadent. On the Isle of Skye (at least a few years ago) the locals were very proud of the fact that there were more people on the island that had their licenses revoked for DUI than there were licensed drivers.
Post #423,225 by crazy 4/6/18 5:16:05 PM 4/6/18 5:16:05 PM Reply	Caviar comes in different types I've had caviar I hate and caviar I love. Try different ones.
Post #423,228 by Another Scott 4/6/18 9:03:24 PM 4/6/18 9:03:24 PM Reply	We always used fish eggs for bait... ... when we went fishing at a trout farm in the Georgia mountains when I was a kid. (I'm not sure why we always went there to fish - I guess my dad didn't like waiting. ;-) I never had much interest in trying caviar with that history. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Cheers, Scott.
Post #423,237 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 9:41:23 PM 4/6/18 9:41:23 PM Reply	There's a new book out on brain nutrition . . . . . and it says caviar is really top notch brain food. It says the biggest problem with brain nutrition is not enough plain water, which causes long term problems. It warns about purified and distilled water as insufficient. The author buys Poland Spring water by the case. I'm in good shape - I drink a huge amount of Jerry Water (Gerolsteiner), almost a case a week. Fortunately I buy it on sale, $0.99 or $0.89 per bottle +CRV.
Post #423,239 by boxley 4/6/18 11:18:02 PM 4/6/18 11:18:02 PM Reply	spring fed bottled water, right from a tap in brooklyn I like appolinaris if I can find it any more. Jerry Water is pretty good as well. "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,244 by Andrew Grygus 4/6/18 11:56:22 PM 4/6/18 11:57:10 PM Reply	Dup - several hours later Edited by Andrew Grygus April 6, 2018, 11:57:10 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #423,230 by boxley 4/6/18 9:17:11 PM 4/6/18 9:17:11 PM Reply	salmon caviar is my favorite https://www.google.com/search?q=salmon+caviar&client=firefox-b-1-ab&tbm=shop&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3vcTB_qbaAhWMy4MKHf-TBEAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=615&dpr=0.9 "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #423,245 by Andrew Grygus 4/7/18 12:02:48 AM 4/7/18 12:02:48 AM Reply	Though I've read several articles on the subject . . . . . it's of interest to me, so I ordered the book (Lulu - 3 days to print before shipping). I'll let you know if anyone says belief in spirits is required, but I don't think anyone will. In general, we Pagans aren't "believers".
Post #423,181 by scoenye 4/3/18 7:04:51 PM 4/3/18 7:04:51 PM Reply	Except in Europe Over the ages, the word became a derogatory term for any non-Christian/non-Jewish person (one of the German translations is 'nichtjuden'.) Some atheists now use it as a badge of honor, but the word is rarely used to refer to Paganism.

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