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New you shouldnt savage him like that :)
After all his culture is superior to ours,
All poking at Marlowe aside, he brings up a good point. We Americans love to loath the rulers of the day regardless of our background. This has been somewhat inbred from 1776. Other cultures emulate this loathing. We collectively go "huh! who the fsck are you ya heathen bastards?" and proceed to either watch with amusement or crush them with our might. We are a technically superior group but we shouldnt assume that technocally superior = morally superior.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New No, we shouldn't assume it.
But there is a strong correlation between the two, for some reason.

Me, I think that the better culture is the cause, and technological superiority is the effect. Right makes might.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New No...no correlation.
There is no "correct" morality.

There's "accepted"...which is judgemental based on POV...but no "correct" one.

The attitude that one's culture is >more correct< than another's is one of the things causing all of the current problems.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Current problems?
If there is no absolute morality, then who are you to say what constitutes a problem?

Nihilism is a cop-out.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Nihilism 101
There is no absolute morality.

Therefore, everyone's definition of "problem" is as accurate as every other person's.

You live your life the way you want to.

Strangely enough, this applies whether you believe there is an absolute or whether you don't.
New nope bassackwards
The culture of the american people is situational to the technology, not the other way around.
Example: To me the culture of the Yupik people is far superior than the White American Culture.
the American Culture is much more technically advanced but morally far inferior to the yupik culture.

Another example
The White southern culture is not as technically advanced as the California silicon valley culture. The white southern culture is morally superior than the california silicon valley culture.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New But who will win in a fight?
Example: To me the culture of the Yupik people is far superior than the White American Culture.
"Superior" or "inferior" or "better" or "worse" are all individual judgements.

And I fully support the right of the individual to make such judgements.

The only problem I have is when said individual tries to force his/her view on others (unwilling others). Particularly when said force involves splatting said others (unwilling) because they are unwilling and others.

The problem I have with Marlowe (and those like him) is that they confuse the ability to apply such force with the "moral" "justification" to apply such force.

Translation: Because we CAN kick your ass, it is RIGHT that we SHOULD kick your ass if you ever even THINK of doing something WE do not APPROVE of.

Of course, it is never phrased in that manner. We are always "saving" the "savages" or "civilizing" them or whatever.

The "morality" of the bully.

"Morality" cannot be defined in military strength or effectiveness or by numbering your dead/defeated opponents.

Well, the ABSENCE or "morality" can be defined thus.

Outside of a religious structure, where do morals come from? And I'm still taking the view that your morals are the lines you will not cross, not what you claim.

Might makes Right is very popular with certain individuals as it produces immediate benefits......while they're at the top of the food chain. It's easy to see how this can be someone's "moral" principle.

But where do the other, more complex, morals come from?
New Morals come from a lot of places
Age can instill morals. Being hurt more often makes you a little more aware of hurting others. It isnt automatic. A cat can suckle a baby rat if it wishes but it doesnt make the cat moral. Morals are defined individually and the bell curve where a majority agree becomes the "moral" position. Slavery was moral at one time. It is only when a societal shift occurs that moves the moral mores to a different position. Morality by and of itself is meaningless. Without a unified theory for morality just like the unified theory of physics the rules governing morality are hard to find. To paraphrase Chief Dan George "do you not admire the humanity of it" a lot of territory can get covered without a solution.
thanks,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New It's that last Question which created the Priest vocation.
"Don't worry pretty-little heads over such Questions. You are unhappy for having to make so many decisions (that is called IIRC, 'life' ?) - so We shall help you make them, and from Our Connection To The One Source".

(And BTW - if.. you *don't follow our recipe* umm then the One Source shall torture you, but so lengthily that - it won't ever stop.) Now - what was your Free Choice? Again?

I believe that the Confusion can be seen to have begun ~ at this point in the banding together of hunter-gatherers into uneasy 'groups'.

As to the Question itself: didn't we have that thrashed out pretty exhaustively in either Religion Wars I or Religion Wars II [The Sequel] at EZ-board ... about the time we'unses were all being excoriated for not possessing a God-Given Objective Morality\ufffd ??

[Ergo - We All ('cept a few Lucky Ones) Are Doomed, and also: It's Out of Our Hands Because the Decision Was Already Made Before.. And We Are Born Guilty \ufffd]

And so it goes..

{sigh}



Logic.. is never enough.


Ashton
     OpEd: All cultures are not equal - (marlowe) - (10)
         You are too funny. - (Brandioch) - (9)
             you shouldnt savage him like that :) - (boxley) - (8)
                 No, we shouldn't assume it. - (marlowe) - (7)
                     No...no correlation. - (bepatient) - (2)
                         Current problems? - (marlowe) - (1)
                             Nihilism 101 - (Brandioch)
                     nope bassackwards - (boxley) - (3)
                         But who will win in a fight? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                             Morals come from a lot of places - (boxley)
                             It's that last Question which created the Priest vocation. - (Ashton)

Narf!
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