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New You are too funny.
To be radical today is to display disenchantment with all that is 'Western' - by which most mean modernism and the ideas of the Enlightenment - in the name of 'diversity' and 'difference'.
Really? I don't see too many people arguing for the virtual enslavement of women ala the Taliban's old rulings.

I thought suffrage was a "Western" concept.

And so on. Another "opinion" from and for people who don't understand what "Western" means nor what "diversity" means.

I don't see any of his mythical "radicals" trying to impose any of the Taliban's laws on the US (well, except for Ashcroft and Bush, but we expect it of them).

So, they reject "Western" concepts and "hate America", but I don't see them trying to CHANGE the US laws.

Why is it that Western liberals and radicals have become so disenchanted with modern civilisation that some even welcomed the attack on the Twin Towers as an anti-imperialist act?
I guess it would be too much to expect any substantiation for that allegation.

How things have changed. 'Permanently different' is exactly how we tend to see different, groups, societies and cultures today. Why? Largely because contemporary society has lost faith in social transformation, in the possibility of progress, in the beliefs that animated anti-imperialists like James and Fanon.
Again, another unsubstantiated statement. Anyone with any understanding of history will know that cultures are under constant change. It wasn't THAT long ago (less than one lifetime) that blacks couldn't vote in the US. That we still had segregation. And he thinks that OTHER people think that cultures don't change?

To regard people as 'temporarily backward' rather than 'permanently different' is to accept that while people are potentially equal, cultures definitely are not; it is to accept the idea of social and moral progress; that it would be far better if everybody had the chance to live in the type of society or culture that best promoted human advancement.
Ah, so we've moved from other people thinking that cultures don't change to the "fact" that other cultures are "temporarily backward" and just not as good as ours?

You see, not EVERY culture has the SAME values as our culture. That doesn't make them backward or anything.

And this is NOT the same as "hating America".

No more than drinking tea means you hate coffee.

But it's just these ideas - and the very act of making judgements about beliefs, values, lifestyles, and cultures - that are now viewed as politically uncouth.
Well, DUH! Because YOU do not find a particular value to be worthy does NOT mean that it is not to the person who holds it.

Again, because someone likes tea does NOT make him "backward" nor does it mean he hates coffee.

And it isn't just politically uncouth. It demonstrates the bigot nature of the person making such statements.

But being a bigot is not the handicap in some social circles that it is in others.

We've come to see the world as divided into cultures and groups defined largely by their difference with each other. And every group has come to see itself as composed not of active agents attempting to overcome disadvantages by striving for equality and progress, but of passive victims with irresolvable grievances. For if differences are permanent, how can grievances ever be resolved?
So, he's alternating between unsubstantiated claims that OTHER people believe that cultures are unchanging (despite historical evidence to the contrary) and political support of bigotry.

The corollary of turning the whole world into a network of victims is to transform the West, and in particular the USA, into an all-powerful malign force - the Great Satan - against which all must rage.
Again, it is other people (those ignorant people who think that cultures don't change) who say we're evil. Those bad, backwardly cultured people.

Get a grip. The Great Satan is a term used by anti-US, fundamentalist religions in totalitarian states.

Translation: a VERY small MINORITY of people.

There is a similar sense of fatalism in the way that many contemporary radicals view the USA. The Great Satan describes the world, and the world succumbs to those descriptions.
Are these the same people who don't believe that cultures change? The stupid ones he talked about earlier? If so, so what?

In this fatalism lies a common thread that binds contemporary Western radicalism and fundamentalist Islam.
This is going to be good.

On the surface the two seem poles apart: fundamentalists loathe Western decadence, Western radicals fear Islamic presumptions of certainty.
Hmmm? The multiculturalists who hate America are afraid of another culture that hates America? If they're afraid of the other culture, why are they multiculturalists?

But what unites the two is that both are rooted in contemporary nihilistic multiculturalism; both express, at best, ambivalence about, at worst outright rejection of, the ideas of modernity, universality, and progress.
"At worst"? And has anyone ever seen anyone trying to repeal woman's suffrage? I mean, they are "at worst" outright rejecting of these ideas.

Okay, if they aren't looking to repeal woman's suffrage, what ARE they trying to repeal?

New you shouldnt savage him like that :)
After all his culture is superior to ours,
All poking at Marlowe aside, he brings up a good point. We Americans love to loath the rulers of the day regardless of our background. This has been somewhat inbred from 1776. Other cultures emulate this loathing. We collectively go "huh! who the fsck are you ya heathen bastards?" and proceed to either watch with amusement or crush them with our might. We are a technically superior group but we shouldnt assume that technocally superior = morally superior.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New No, we shouldn't assume it.
But there is a strong correlation between the two, for some reason.

Me, I think that the better culture is the cause, and technological superiority is the effect. Right makes might.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New No...no correlation.
There is no "correct" morality.

There's "accepted"...which is judgemental based on POV...but no "correct" one.

The attitude that one's culture is >more correct< than another's is one of the things causing all of the current problems.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Current problems?
If there is no absolute morality, then who are you to say what constitutes a problem?

Nihilism is a cop-out.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Truth is that which is the case. Accept no substitutes.
If competence is considered "hubris" then may I and my country always be as "arrogant" as we can possibly manage.
New Nihilism 101
There is no absolute morality.

Therefore, everyone's definition of "problem" is as accurate as every other person's.

You live your life the way you want to.

Strangely enough, this applies whether you believe there is an absolute or whether you don't.
New nope bassackwards
The culture of the american people is situational to the technology, not the other way around.
Example: To me the culture of the Yupik people is far superior than the White American Culture.
the American Culture is much more technically advanced but morally far inferior to the yupik culture.

Another example
The White southern culture is not as technically advanced as the California silicon valley culture. The white southern culture is morally superior than the california silicon valley culture.
thanx,
bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New But who will win in a fight?
Example: To me the culture of the Yupik people is far superior than the White American Culture.
"Superior" or "inferior" or "better" or "worse" are all individual judgements.

And I fully support the right of the individual to make such judgements.

The only problem I have is when said individual tries to force his/her view on others (unwilling others). Particularly when said force involves splatting said others (unwilling) because they are unwilling and others.

The problem I have with Marlowe (and those like him) is that they confuse the ability to apply such force with the "moral" "justification" to apply such force.

Translation: Because we CAN kick your ass, it is RIGHT that we SHOULD kick your ass if you ever even THINK of doing something WE do not APPROVE of.

Of course, it is never phrased in that manner. We are always "saving" the "savages" or "civilizing" them or whatever.

The "morality" of the bully.

"Morality" cannot be defined in military strength or effectiveness or by numbering your dead/defeated opponents.

Well, the ABSENCE or "morality" can be defined thus.

Outside of a religious structure, where do morals come from? And I'm still taking the view that your morals are the lines you will not cross, not what you claim.

Might makes Right is very popular with certain individuals as it produces immediate benefits......while they're at the top of the food chain. It's easy to see how this can be someone's "moral" principle.

But where do the other, more complex, morals come from?
New Morals come from a lot of places
Age can instill morals. Being hurt more often makes you a little more aware of hurting others. It isnt automatic. A cat can suckle a baby rat if it wishes but it doesnt make the cat moral. Morals are defined individually and the bell curve where a majority agree becomes the "moral" position. Slavery was moral at one time. It is only when a societal shift occurs that moves the moral mores to a different position. Morality by and of itself is meaningless. Without a unified theory for morality just like the unified theory of physics the rules governing morality are hard to find. To paraphrase Chief Dan George "do you not admire the humanity of it" a lot of territory can get covered without a solution.
thanks,
Bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
New It's that last Question which created the Priest vocation.
"Don't worry pretty-little heads over such Questions. You are unhappy for having to make so many decisions (that is called IIRC, 'life' ?) - so We shall help you make them, and from Our Connection To The One Source".

(And BTW - if.. you *don't follow our recipe* umm then the One Source shall torture you, but so lengthily that - it won't ever stop.) Now - what was your Free Choice? Again?

I believe that the Confusion can be seen to have begun ~ at this point in the banding together of hunter-gatherers into uneasy 'groups'.

As to the Question itself: didn't we have that thrashed out pretty exhaustively in either Religion Wars I or Religion Wars II [The Sequel] at EZ-board ... about the time we'unses were all being excoriated for not possessing a God-Given Objective Morality\ufffd ??

[Ergo - We All ('cept a few Lucky Ones) Are Doomed, and also: It's Out of Our Hands Because the Decision Was Already Made Before.. And We Are Born Guilty \ufffd]

And so it goes..

{sigh}



Logic.. is never enough.


Ashton
     OpEd: All cultures are not equal - (marlowe) - (10)
         You are too funny. - (Brandioch) - (9)
             you shouldnt savage him like that :) - (boxley) - (8)
                 No, we shouldn't assume it. - (marlowe) - (7)
                     No...no correlation. - (bepatient) - (2)
                         Current problems? - (marlowe) - (1)
                             Nihilism 101 - (Brandioch)
                     nope bassackwards - (boxley) - (3)
                         But who will win in a fight? - (Brandioch) - (2)
                             Morals come from a lot of places - (boxley)
                             It's that last Question which created the Priest vocation. - (Ashton)

Your LRPD God[tm] is HERE!
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