There is only one thing that is certain . . .

Post #419,191 by Andrew Grygus 7/25/17 8:58:20 PM 7/25/17 8:58:20 PM Reply	There is only one thing that is certain . . . . . and that is that they will vote Republican in the next election. Republican voters are Believers, and Believers can not summon a shred of logical thought on any subject that impinges on their belief realm. And they consider that to be a benefit. They want to be absolutely certain they are totally right, without giving it the slightest thought. A Trump voter yesterday is a Trump voter tomorrow.
Post #419,199 by mmoffitt 7/26/17 8:15:28 AM 7/26/17 8:15:28 AM Reply	I can't speak for anywhere other than Indiana. But Trump will win Indiana. Of that there can be no doubt. And you're quite right about "belief." Christianity is a big thing here. But I repeat myself again; elsewhere I've described the majority of Hoosiers as being xenophobic, racist and ignorant. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,208 by rcareaga 7/26/17 10:04:26 AM 7/26/17 10:04:26 AM Reply	“xenophobic, racist and ignorant” You say that like it’s a bad thing. Anyway, be of good cheer. Your optimism last year (to the effect of “Trump might not be so bad”) has been rewarded this morning as the short-fingered vulgarian has at last promulgated a policy that is certain to tickle the fancies of the Hoosiers and yourself. transcordially,
Post #419,213 by mmoffitt 7/26/17 11:25:24 AM 7/26/17 11:25:24 AM Reply	and myself? Has the dementia really taken hold? You're about the right age, I guess. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,214 by rcareaga 7/26/17 12:19:36 PM 7/26/17 12:19:36 PM Reply	You’ve softened your former stance on transgender, then? All to the good. Perhaps before Ozyhandius topples, you’ll have loosened up on same-sex marriage and the Weed with Roots in Hell. cordially,
Post #419,218 by mmoffitt 7/26/17 2:20:30 PM 7/26/17 2:20:30 PM Reply	Softened my stance? To what are you referring? My observation that sex in humans is determined by chromosomes? How does that equate to being biased against anyone who wishes to change their sex? Same sex marriage won't ever make sense to me. I'm not angry about it, I just don't see how the State can expect to receive the same benefit from a same sex couple that it most often does receive from an opposite sex couple. As for "Satan's Lawn", I don't like the way it is being legalized. It is being legalized without any serious consideration of the permanent effects on a developing human mind. My position on it is simply that if you're going to legalize it, then by damn don't make it legal to use until the brain is fully mature (thereby avoiding permanent changes to the user's neural network). Make the "legal age" at least 25, not 21. Because science. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,228 by Andrew Grygus 7/26/17 6:14:27 PM 7/26/17 6:14:27 PM Reply	So, the important thing about marriage is . . . . . it's benefit to "the State"? Oh, that's right - in Communism the State always comes before the person.
Post #419,243 by mmoffitt 7/27/17 8:12:32 AM 7/27/17 8:12:32 AM Reply	Well, at least in this country. Who issues "Marriage Licenses"? The State. Why is that necessary? Because the State is a party to the contract of the marriage. Obviously, the couple is the other party. As with all contracts, each party is supposed to benefit from the contract. The relationship between the two individuals comprising the couple has nothing to do with marriage. But, I've pointed all of this out before. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,240 by pwhysall 7/27/17 2:42:38 AM 7/27/17 2:42:38 AM Reply	You're conflating sex and gender. They're not the same thing.
Post #419,245 by mmoffitt 7/27/17 8:16:39 AM 7/27/17 8:16:39 AM Reply	Trying to teach English to the English is sooooooo hard. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,246 by Another Scott 7/27/17 9:00:49 AM 7/27/17 9:00:49 AM Reply	(sigh) Real-world biology isn't binary. E.g. https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/klinefelter-syndrome https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/xyy-syndrome/ HTH. Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,247 by mmoffitt 7/27/17 9:05:16 AM 7/27/17 9:05:16 AM Reply	What are you trying to tell me? That disease states are "normal" states? <sigh right back> bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,249 by Another Scott 7/27/17 9:13:15 AM 7/27/17 9:13:15 AM Reply	Thought it was pretty clear. Real-world biology isn't binary. Someone who has extra (or missing) chromosomes isn't less human and doesn't deserve to be treated as such. Or someone whose brain is put together a little differently even if they don't have an easily visible genetic difference. Was Einstein "abnormal"? Was Turning? Was Meitner? Insisting on putting people in bins is stupid. Your personal feelings about "the purpose of marriage" and the "definition of a family" should have little or no impact on whether two others want to get married or not. Or whether they get the benefits of marriage and family that other couples get, or not. But, as you say, we've been through all of this before. My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.
Post #419,251 by mmoffitt 7/27/17 10:58:23 AM 7/27/17 10:58:23 AM Reply	We're at a dead end, but I have to say a couple of things. 1) "Family" doesn't (and never did) have anything to do with marriage imo. 2) As things are now, the best thing to do is to eliminate the requirement of a license of any kind for marriage. Eliminating marriage licenses would bring reason to the widely popular misconception that a marriage is between two people. I think (2) is as close as we're ever going to get to consensus, but we still would have disagreements. The elimination of (2) would, of necessity, eliminate any State benefits to the condition of being married. I'd be okay with that. I suspect you wouldn't. But I've lost what little faith I had in our people so I don't really care much either way at this point. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,266 by pwhysall 7/28/17 2:56:40 AM 7/28/17 2:56:40 AM Reply	Oh, the dictionary. That's where I, too, go to understand complex issues of sexuality and gender. The real world is, as usual, considerably more complex than a reductivist such as yourself would like it to be. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] non-binary, or gender-nonconforming. In some cases, an individual may have biological sex characteristics that complicate sex assignment, and the person may be intersex. The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not. Among scientists, the term sex differences (as compared to gender differences) is typically applied to sexually dimorphic traits that are hypothesized to be evolved consequences of sexual selection.[5][6] Now, if your takeaway from that is "well sex and gender are the same thing, innit" then you're probably a bit of an idiot. Just because people use "sex" and "gender" interchangeably doesn't mean that it's accurate. In the same way that most people talk about wheel nuts on their car, when 90% of the time they really mean wheel bolts. In casual conversation people know what you mean, but if you buy wheel nuts when you needed wheel bolts, well. You're going to have a bad time when it comes to wheel-fitting.
Post #419,272 by mmoffitt 7/28/17 8:08:28 AM 7/28/17 8:08:28 AM Reply	Oh, Wikipedia. What better source of information could there be? And I'm the idiot. bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.
Post #419,274 by Another Scott 7/28/17 8:21:49 AM 7/28/17 8:21:49 AM Reply	Keep digging. ;-)
Post #419,285 by crazy 7/28/17 11:51:06 AM 7/28/17 11:51:06 AM Reply	Many times you post I think of this comic http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe Please read it. Back to this thread: Sure, you should consider the source. But not discount it totally. It is simply a starting point. And usually points to great original sources.
Post #419,305 by boxley 7/28/17 10:47:20 PM 7/28/17 10:47:20 PM Reply	what, you never dated a hermaphrodite? are you sure? "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Post #419,212 by Andrew Grygus 7/26/17 11:04:06 AM 7/26/17 11:04:06 AM Reply	"Belief" is not just Christianity. In fact, there is no possible way to reconcile Donald Trump with Christian values, Trump exemplifies almost everything Jesus taught against. Most Trump believers claim to be "Christians" but can be so in name only - Trumpism trumps what tattered fragments of Christianity they imagine they adhere to. Of course, some Believers believe in Bernie Sanders, with similarly disastrous results.
Post #419,220 by Ashton 7/26/17 4:08:45 PM 7/26/17 4:08:45 PM Reply	Kudos.. rather Clearly limned But it needs a ^{^Meta^} for appropriate context: Belief-in belief oughtta come close, as all these topics--which have, over the {merely-known} Centuries--caused the oft agonized deaths of ... surely by now: a Billion + (if not, provably 'billions') All derive from that pig-ignorance allowed to grow from tykehood on into dotage: the omission of having been taught something about "how to Tell" the Difference 'twixt Answerable- and Not-answerable Questions. Period. some call this: the omission of teaching Critical Thinking (and bloody-well Testing that they Got It.) PS: Yes too, Adolf put out some Nazi-Xian mishmosh of his own! maybe just a tiny-sop to keep the Robed-ones off his ass long enough to ... get-ON with the wholesale-exterminations (?) (I "believe" that inculcating Invisible ~~rabbits~~ Overlords-who-give-a-shit! about. Each. mindless-Creation. like-Yourself, extant: and Who like to chat with -->you!! about the Mercedes you rilly-want ..IS the beginning of all the religio-caused heaped dead burned bodies, Evah. (But what do I know-fershure?)) HTH
Post #419,244 by mmoffitt 7/27/17 8:13:57 AM 7/27/17 8:13:57 AM Reply	No, it isn't. But it does make one comfortable (far too much so) with "believing in falsehoods." bcnu, Mikem It's mourning in America again.

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