Post #38,962
5/16/02 10:36:17 PM
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MSFT to compete with Peoplesoft, SAP
I'm now subscribing to the computer reseller news. The latest issue has an interesting article. MSFT has purchased a dutch company called navision, who make ERP and CRM software. The purchase is to get IP to use for .net. Combined with the Great Plains stuff, it appears that MSFT is taking direct aim at ERP ISVs like those in the title... at least, that was the spin that was being taken by CRN; they seem to be pretty sure that the idea is that MSFT is going to try and squeeze those guys out of the enterprise market. This would seem to be related to their plan to implement NTFS 6 as an SQL compliant file system... after all, if everyone has SQL Server on their desktop, there's no need to go buying that pesky expensive oracle stuff, is there? The general tone of the article was that of a heads up to resellers and distributors that they may find their vendor relationships in those markets changing in a major way over the next two years... the only quotes that were crowing about it were the MSFT business partners... which is to say, the people who sell MSFT and MSFT only and therefore get price breaks on goods, services, and training.
-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- * Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca * * [link|http://consultron.ca |[link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] ] irc.ecomstation.ca * * Laval Qu\ufffdbec Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] * -------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #38,964
5/16/02 10:55:13 PM
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They're a bit late to that party
Working for a french company...and knowing how much they don't like SAP...they still wouldn't ever consider pitching it for MSFT.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #38,978
5/17/02 1:07:28 AM
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Microsoft's clear objective . .
. . as expressed in the revenue projections issued by Microsoft Great Plains, to own the accounting,CRM (Customer Relationship Management)and Supply Chain markets as thoroughly as they now own the desktop office suite market.
They intend to squeeze competitors out of Windows based accouning by leveraging integration with Microsoft Office and though the transition to Web Services. Both tactics are already being deployed by Microsoft Great Plains with great intensity.
Just as the market leaders somehow never quite made it from DOS to Windows, today's accounting and management software publishers somehow just won't get over to .NET - and if you think Microsoft will allow Windows developers any option but .NET, you're smoking something very odd.
They'll use that same integration with Office to hold off Linux accounting packages - just won't be as "feature rich". In a little while, they'll get to where they can leverage "it's what everyone is using", just as with Office.
Following their .NET line, they intend not only to lease all accounting and business management software, they intend to lease every business' own data back to them. It may or may not be hosted on Microsoft .NET servers (though that's the preference), but it will be held hostage by the lease on the accounting and office software either way.
In the future, businesses will start to look much the same, because they'll be using the same software and the same business methods (as supported by that software). Oh yes, there will be minor customization allowed, don in approved ways by VBScript.NET programmers.
As a final objective they'll try to establish Microsoft software as the primary way a business can demonstrate conformance with GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Practices).
You say businesses will never allow Microsoft that kind of control? You're smoking that funny stuff again, aren't you? Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way".
Of course there'll always be that 15% to 20% of cranks and weirdos who just won't fall in line . . just like it was with Web browsers back around 2002. Remember when you had to make a choice about what browser to use?
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #38,979
5/17/02 1:19:11 AM
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So, in your opinion....
...is MS going to ultimately succeed in this?
I ask because you seem to know a lot more about this kind of thing (Accounting, CRM, etc.) than I do.
I realize that you predicted this move quite some time ago but are they going to get away with it? No doubt they will see some success, but will they be the 800 pound gorilla in this particular market that they are on the desktop?
Tom Sinclair "Subverting Young Minds Since 03/13/2000"
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Post #38,984
5/17/02 2:29:47 AM
5/17/02 3:03:09 AM
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They certainly have the intent, . .
. . the plan, the money and the tools - but one thing they're increasingly running up against is the issue of trust. Hailstorm / My Services looked like it'd be a steamroller, but it hit the trust issue like a [link|http://www.aaxnet.com/news/M020411.html|brick wall].
A few years ago my small business clients looked quite ascance at my perceived "anti-Microsoft" attitude. Today, I'd be hard pressed to point to any clients that don't think Bill Gates is personally out to screw them. A combination of court news, a rather rough handling of licensing issues, steadily increasing costs and continuous virus problems is taking it's toll.
On the other hand, most are still in denial of just how deep that screwing is going to be, so very few are yet willing to consider moving off the Windows platform. The image problem may, however, be enough to derail any wholesale migration to Microsoft Great Plains Small Business Manager.
Pulling in the other direction, Microsoft has a crew of rather skilled and persistent telemarketers pushing Microsoft Biz Central (evolving into the entry level .NET business services). They can make Microsoft's offering sound pretty tempting (got another call from one just this morning).
Soon enough, Microsoft's Great Plains reseller "partners" will find themselves squeezed in an ever shrinking gap between this direct telemarketing group and Microsoft Consulting at the high end, but that's another subject.
Meanwhile, it's important for everyone who favors freedom of choice in software to "work on" Microsoft's tarnishing public image. It's one of the best tools we've got to hold them at bay.
I had a lot of fun today working over Bill Gates and the concept of "Trustworthy Computing" as I shut down a substantial manufacturer / distributor for most of the day to exorcize W32/Klez.H@mm worm from their servers and workstations.
Oh yes, my prediction (I almost forgot). Microsoft is going to be big in this field. Their only other option is to divest the whole works, an ego blow they'd have a hard time rationalizing away. They aren't going to do that - this isn't a tactical hit and run like the Corel investment - this is core strategy.
Microsoft will be limited by their own greed and will eventually settle into a market of conservative midsize businesses that want a "turnkey" "one phone number" management system and are willing to pay a very stiff permium (ref IBM in a past era). The Biz Center market may or may not pan out at the small end - profitability of Web based concepts is still highly iffy.
The cranky, disorderly, "We're gonna do it MY way" and highly cost sensitive nature of small business owners and managers will assure a substantial market for more "individualist" management solutions, including Linux based solutions. The key here is effective marketing (and I don't mean big advertising budgets).
The bulk of the business market is small business, and big companies have an absoultely awful record at serving the needs of small businesses. Microsoft is a big company.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #38,988
5/17/02 8:22:43 AM
5/17/02 8:27:02 AM
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Ah, but you forget DRM, security and
the BSA. In order to have a non-MS solution, you will have to be able: - to survive while MS shuts down your business as they 'research' whether every machine that you own is correctly licensed. That means that even if you have all Linux machines, you can't be running MS software (on Wine, for example) even if you bought it fair and square, because MS software is only licensed to run on approved MS OSes. But don't worry, they'll be quicker about it if you convert to an all-MS shop...
- If you are running software without DRM, you are a pirate, after all. Expect GPLed OSes that can't contain closed, proprietary software to be outlawed in the US. After all, L.A.M.E security is the only security that lay people understand - and our representatives are all lay-people when it comes to technology. Mid-range and higher companies might be able to afford 'bigger', non-MS controlled hardware and software (with proprietary DRM) - but that's out of reach of the 'little guy'
- Interoperability will be ZERO with other business unless MS software is at least used as a gateway (another expense that smaller businesses will be affected by, should they try to buck the current). After all, MS must be allowed to keep APIs secret so that the bad hackers can't get in. Again, most people, ESPECIALLY our elected representatives, don't understand that security by obscurity is no security at all - they don't see why secret APIs are unreasonable in that context, especially in a monopoly holder. Expect document formats to be included in this category. It will be done with huge fanfare about how MS will 'solve the problem of macro-viruses'.
I might belive that things could still turn out OK, but the antics in the court still seem to indicate (to me, at least) that the fix is in, and that as our leader needs to keep EVERYONE under surveillance (anyone might be a terrorist, after all - why, we even have US terrorists, so the US people are surely not exempt), boosting MS and using thier products as a 'bug' in every digital device is the most convenient way to get the job done. Echelon was a 'cup and string' telephone effort compared to what I suspect the current administration to be up to. I guess I must be an extremist, though. When I discussed this with my Father (a quite intelligent person) all I got were "Relax, that can't happen here" type comments.
Imric's Tips for Living- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Edited by imric
May 17, 2002, 08:27:02 AM EDT
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Post #39,032
5/17/02 1:05:14 PM
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It most certainly can happen here.
An encouraging note is the semi-organized storm of protest that has stalled UCITA.
In Ed Foster's recent InfoWorld Gripe Line column, he expressed amazement that UCITA didn't die when the ABA denounced it, and that the committee keeps claiming to have fixed it but makes no substantial changes. This is easily explained by Microsoft's support. They very much want it passed, and passed "as is", because it dovetails neatly with their other licensing and control issues. Eventually they'll rename it to lose the UCITA label, but it won't be substantially changed.
Even so, UCITA has passed only in AOL's territory (AOL is also a supporter), not in Microsoft's territory.
The same resistance has to be brought against anything else from the Hollings / Feinstein / RIAA / MPIA / Microsoft Axis of Evil. Once again, "working on" Microsoft's public image and generating public suspicion of anything they are involved in will pay dividends. Eventually legislators will learn to recognize items that are going to generate a lot of flack.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #39,076
5/17/02 4:48:14 PM
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"It Can't Happen Here" - book by Sinclair Lewis. (again)
Surely we are even riper for this progression of Authoritarianism than when SL blew the whistle. "Everybody's doing it" suffices for a mantra for the biz-droid who doesn't want the *responsibilty* of choosing Differently. And his congresscritter.
Non vrai?
A. (Sure hope we're both pleasantly er 'surprised' - per your sig.)
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Post #39,053
5/17/02 3:04:32 PM
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They have the vision. Not many others do.
One thing you have to give MS. They have the vision and the drive to attempt this.
Their competitors could kick MS's ass right here and right now.
If they had vision and drive.
Simply get down and re-write their apps to run on Linux and to interface via a web browser.
Then, hook up with a hardware company and RENT pre-packaged accounting servers (hardware and software in one nice bundle).
All OS updates, app updates and hardware replacement should be rolled into the deal.
I don't think it would take much more effort on their part. Add a few people who know Linux and partner with a decent hardware company.
I still think the appliance is the way to go for businesses.
But none of them seem to be catching on. They're still looking at doing everything the way they did before.
Meanwhile, MS is constantly experimenting with different approaches to take their customers.
Eventually, MS will win. Not because MS is better. Because the other companies aren't looking at changing their practices.
*sigh*
The same with StarOffice and such. I'm still convinced that they should release filters for MSOffice so anyone can start the migration process NOW.
Survival of the most ADAPTABLE!
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Post #39,099
5/17/02 7:52:06 PM
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Sometimes it happens by accident
An accounting and POS (Point of Sale) publisher we deal with (Vigilant) had (still has) a very fine DOS product, but accepted the innevitable and started the migration to Windows. Problem was, they couldn't get the stability and data integrity they felt was required, and Windows kept changing, so it took them 8 years to get the Windows version out the door. It's a super fine Windows app, but - In the mean time, their clients were growing. Their DOS version had multi-store poling, just like the big guys used - but - their customers weren't big guys and didn't understand what to do when the nightly poling didn't go, so the accounting would get screwed up on a regular basis - so - - Marketing to Programming: "what can we do to make this poling more reliable?"
- Programming to Marketing: "Nothing - not with DOS, but we could run the DOS version under Linux and use terminal emulation at the stores over a data link."
- Marketing to Programming: "OK, do that and we'll try it"
- Marketing to Customer: "We have this neat way of avoiding poling problems! Just run multiple DOS sessions on a central computer over a data link and everything's up to date all the time".
- Customer to Marketing: "Looks great - but what happens when the data link goes down. Our store will be out of business."
- Marketing to Customer: "Would that happen?"
- Marketing to Programming: "how do we fix this data link problem?"
- Programming to Marketing: "Nothing - but we could put the program back in the stores so they could run on local data if the link were down, but the local data will probably be way obsolete, so there would be synchronization problems."
- Marketing to Programming: "Back where we were. What can we do".
- Programming to Marketing: "Nothing - with DOS - but if the software was ported to Linux we could do synchronization in the background".
- Marketing to Programming: "That seems awful complicated - so, when is the Windows version going to be done so we can get away from this poling thing?"
- Programming to Marketing: "Windows will use poling. It isn't able to do anything more complex".
- Marketing to Universe: "AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!"
Solution. The Windows version is finally out, but the Linux Real Time Multistore version with automatic local failover and background synchronization is now the company's flagship product.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #38,985
5/17/02 3:16:21 AM
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Look - just 'cause you got a couple hundred clients
who share a deathly fear of not using exactly the same stuff as everybody else (who also have a deathly fear of.. Standing Out) doesn't mean -
Oh wait ... it does!
So.. is it Corporate Terrorism if: the victims take off their ties, place neck in the notched block - stained with the blood of previous Partners (barely beginning to clot...) - and beg, please.. please Upgrade Me! -?-
(I'm beginning to think too, that They Deserve Each Other.) As the 'They' approach majority: 'We' see we are doomed to live out some utterly tawdry B-picture lo-budget remake of all the great apocalyptic works; first read with amazement and riveting suspense.. then ZZZzzz promptly forgotten as the next made-for-Tee-Vee Let's Nuke Grenada on Thursday mini-series grabbed the idling attention span.
But will Billy finally be Canonized or.. Cannonized? Will the 'We' finally get off ass and do the Decent Thing ??? Tune in ca 2010 for,
Reality Tee-Vee recreates the foreclosure of Redmond on a Wednesday.
Be sure to watch Nuke From Orbit! filmed via Steady-cam over the bombardier's shoulder as a relative of Ed Curry releases the laser-guided bomb, run by embedded Linux and nicknamed, Evidence Eliminator IV.
*See!* the device leave the bomb-bay, gaily decorated with a bevy of dancing penguin cartoon characters..
*Hear!* the effect of the shockwave on the aircraft, as it banks steeply away from its appointed rounds..
Later, *Join!* the party for the crew, as legions vie for a chance to place a lei round the shoulders of every crew member, right on down to the person who drew the penguin cartoons before the loading commenced.
You Are There !!!
Sponsored by the Coca-Pepsi-Cola Corporation and your friends at Liberty or Death Mutual.
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Post #38,997
5/17/02 9:19:03 AM
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Thanks for the new sig
=== Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
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Post #39,419
5/21/02 4:47:58 PM
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Damn you - I could have used an upgrade!
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Post #39,020
5/17/02 11:30:00 AM
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that was/is the finacial world
"In the future, businesses will start to look much the same, because they'll be using the same software and the same business methods (as supported by that software). Oh yes, there will be minor customization allowed, don in approved ways by VBScript.NET programmers. "
From Oracle Financials to SAP the discussion was always mold your business practices to the software, I remember having this same conversation on IWE with Bob and a few of you guys waaay back when.:) nothin new here. thanx, bill
TAM ARIS QUAM ARMIPOTENS
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Post #38,991
5/17/02 8:41:10 AM
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Navision is a Danish, not a Dutch, company.
From [link|http://www.navision.com/hq/view.asp?categoryID=341|How to contact Navision]: Headquarters
Navision a/s Frydenlunds All\ufffd 6 2950 Vedb\ufffdk Denmark
Christian R. Conrad Of course, who am I to point fingers? I'm in the "Information Technology" business, prima facia evidence that there's bats in the bell tower. -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=27764|Andrew Grygus]
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